Problem understanding "faith alone"

[MarkBrown]

I was discussing this issue with a friend who is a faithful Baptist. Even as a Prostestant, I’ve had a difficult time wrapping my mind around “faith alone”, so I asked her perspective. It is that once a person commits their life to God through baptism and proclamation, they are saved. The only end to this salvation is an outright denial of God’s grace. This means that everyone who does this goes directly to heaven.

So my question was, what about men like Dennis Rader (A.K.A. “BTK”), who viciously stalked, murdered, tortured, and killed over a dozen people? He was baptized and attended church every Sunday; he was a deacon in his church and I can’t find anywhere that says he’s renounced God. Is he going straight to heaven, just like someone with the virtue of Theresa of Calcutta? Yes, she says, because Jesus died for our sins on the cross.

I threw out the possibility that maybe someone of that calibur could use our prayers for mercy, and that this person may have to (at best) pay a price in purgatory to cleanse himself of his sins against God. No, she says, for that is assuming that we have to work for our mercy. I ask what keeps us bound to God’s laws, especially the 10 commandments, and she says that we do this because God says to.

I am very confused. Am I misunderstanding the perspective of “faith alone”? I don’t want to start an argument, I just want to understand this for future reference. Many of my family members are Baptists and, as my reconciliation with the Catholic church becomes known, I will be having this conversation regularly.

For clarification, I am a former protestant minister both Anglican and Southern Baptist.

Your friend is mixing or confusing faith alone with once saved always saved. Many protestants and catholics confuse the two.

Faith alone deals with salvation. Protestants, and as a minister I was taught, to pick a verse or collection of verses and from there a doctrine or theology is formed. These verses are usually taken out of the content in which they were written either the epistle or gospel or secular history. One such passage is Romans 4:1-4 where St Paul talks about Abraham’s faith and how it appears Abraham did nothing working out his salvation. It would appear ST Paul contradicts Jesus when Jesus responds to the young man in Matt 19:17 by telling him to keep God’s commandments if he wanted to enter enteral life.

What some protestants are doing out of their great love for God is going to far, like some in the early church when too far one way or the other in Christology. To protect God they feel they have to take away the gift or curse of freewill. Some go too far the other way with process theology in which free will trumps God and God has no idea what we are going to do and even if Christ will be successful upon the cross.

Faith Alone I can see and understand with out agreeing. But Once saved always saved is a theology most protestants reject. The more baptistic or fundamentalist the more the group is into OSAS. They believe if you walk the aisle, say the prayer and ask Jesus into your heart you are saved. They take verses like Jesus saying those the father has given me I will not cast aside or lose, etc. What they fail to understand is are they assuming they are inthe hands of Christ. Just because you did a certain ritual, it does not bind Christ to your will or desires. In Matt 7:20-25 Jesus talks about those who have the outward signs but not the inward change.

As a Baptist minister, I buried many people who lived outwardly evil lives. Lives rejecting Christ and God and all of the teachings. But, because when they were 8 years old and walked an aisle and said a prayer…they were saved and are now in heavy. Even if in the subsequent 80 years they lived like a demon.

Again most protestants reject OSAS. Your friend is in a minority group, they are vocal that is why they seem so numerous, that hold to this non-scriptural teaching.

Salvation is a work, a constant work. Jesus on the cross was a work. Someone presenting the gospel to us a work. our acceptance or not a work and how we live our lives a work. Not a burden at all.

My 2 cents.

Mark

 

[Publisher]

Just asking… are you saying that as long as I have faith, faith alone then I can ignore the works that can surly lead me to either heaven or hell?

Matthew 25: 31-46

When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne, and all the nations will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

Then the king will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

‘ For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.’

Then the righteous will answer him and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?’

And the king will say to them in reply, ‘Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.’

Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’

Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’

He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’ And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

No friend…I think you KNOW that is not what I am saying. I could be wrong on you actually believing I don’t think works are important to our santification…but salvation is the Work of God ALONE…He takes us right where we are and regenerates us by His Spirit by grace through faith…there is NOTHING I can do to merit His mercy and grace.

 

[fred_conty]

Faith alone…not of works…we are justified before God BECAUSE of His single Soverign act of Mercy through Christ’s SOLITARY work upon the cross which redeems us…not our works…works are a by product of faith and the road toward sanctification…those works DO NOT contribute to God’s Solitary act in Jesus Christ on the cross…“If we confess our sins **he is faithful and just ** to forgive us our sins and (continue to) CLEANSE us from all unrighteousness”…

I do not know WHEN I would deny the Mercy of God to someone…That is God’s realm…I am secure in Christ Jesus by an act of faith in His Finished work upon the cross for the bestowal of His Infinite Grace which works within us toward good works…the whole “faith vs works” for me is a matter of what do I trust in…Faith in God from whom all mercy flows…or faith in my works…which are just by products of the grace already bestowed upon me…not by my works but His alone…He did for us…for me…what I could not do for myself…

As a Friend I believe in the “perfectiblilty of man”…through faith…we are citizens of a different kingdom…God preserves us in His mercy…is that mercy ever withdrawn in certainty by us? I don’t think so…only God knows the heart…I am not able to determine when God’s grace and mercy has been withdrawn from another…it’s not my job…MY JOB is to RESPOND in mercy, love and kindness…“against which there is no law”…

Hi Publisher, thanks for joining the discussion.

I believe Luther had a different view on the effect of baptism. Didn’t he think that the soul was wrapped in some sort of blanket of goodness and that the soul remained in sin? Sort of like a spiritual M&M, sugar coated with chocalate inside, or a wrapping of cleanness with sin still inside. That made the person still evil although justified by goodness with which it was wrapped.

The catholic has quite a different view on the effect of baptism. The soul receives the light and life of Jesus which then eliminates sin all together. And now the person is an adopted child of God, beautiful to God, in which the Father can now say “this is my beloved son in whom I am well pleased.” The person is holy as God is holy, because of the divine life it received.

The differences above are quite great.

In the Catholic view, the person is holy and now performs works which are pleasing and acceptable to the Father from a son who offers them to Him. And all things are pleasing to the Father because he sees the divine life of Christ beating in this person. Now works do sanctify and do merit a growth in sanctifying grace(divine life) in the soul. These works
now contribute to the growth in holiness of the person, that is, more like Christ.

In the Luthern view, the person is not holy because of sin still in the soul, even tho justified by the white blanket of God. Therefore every work is actually done in sin, tho the person is justified to go to heaven. Now works are of little, if any, value. The doctrine of faith only masks the need for good works which the person is not qualified to do because of the state of sin. So therefore, works get very little of their actual importance.​

In true communion let us gather, may all divisions cease,
and in their place be Christ the Lord, Our risen Prince of Peace. (hymn)

 

[patricius79]

I was discussing this issue with a friend who is a faithful Baptist. Even as a Prostestant, I’ve had a difficult time wrapping my mind around “faith alone”, so I asked her perspective. It is that once a person commits their life to God through baptism and proclamation, they are saved. The only end to this salvation is an outright denial of God’s grace. This means that everyone who does this goes directly to heaven.

So my question was, what about men like Dennis Rader (A.K.A. “BTK”), who viciously stalked, murdered, tortured, and killed over a dozen people? He was baptized and attended church every Sunday; he was a deacon in his church and I can’t find anywhere that says he’s renounced God. Is he going straight to heaven, just like someone with the virtue of Theresa of Calcutta? Yes, she says, because Jesus died for our sins on the cross.

I threw out the possibility that maybe someone of that calibur could use our prayers for mercy, and that this person may have to (at best) pay a price in purgatory to cleanse himself of his sins against God. No, she says, for that is assuming that we have to work for our mercy. I ask what keeps us bound to God’s laws, especially the 10 commandments, and she says that we do this because God says to.

I am very confused. Am I misunderstanding the perspective of “faith alone”? I don’t want to start an argument, I just want to understand this for future reference. Many of my family members are Baptists and, as my reconciliation with the Catholic church becomes known, I will be having this conversation regularly.

the un-Biblical idea of “faith alone” only makes sense perhaps at the beginning of salvation when all we can do is say “yes, I believe” then the supernatural works must happen

“see a man is justiified by works and not by faith alone”

Protestants fail to distinguish natural works from works done through faith.

 

[Anna_Scott]

icamay,
I grew up in the Southern Baptist Church and the “faith alone” issue is one of many reasons I left the Baptist Church.

Salvation by faith alone is inconsistent with Holy Scripture when taken as a whole. Sometimes beliefs are justified by grouping certain Scriptures together. Using this technique, one can prove almost anything.

JamestheOlder already pointed out the fact that the Book of James, contradicts the faith alone argument.

Remember, Martin Luther had a rather low opinion of the Book of James (and other Books as well); and at one point wanted to remove these questionable Books, including James. He also added the word “alone” in his German Bible— so that Romans 3:28 would read, “justified by faith alone, apart from the works of the Law.”

Ironically, the phrase “faith alone” only appears in one passage of the N.T. and it says the opposite of what Luther claimed:

James 2: 24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Wikipedia is a quick source for this information: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sola_fide

Peace,
Anna

Faith Alone is a Sola Scriptura protestant drum role which has been beat to death and constantly in error I might add.

Especially when “works” are connected to Catholic. To what purpose, and by what definition?

Most Christian traditions that trace their theologies and doctrines from the Protestant Reformation are known for their convictions that the truths of the Christian faith are found in Sola Scriptura, or Scripture alone, and that we are justified sola fide, or by “faith alone.” Ironically, the expression “faith alone” only appears once in the Bible—in James 2:24—where it is rejected as a description of how we are justified.

Here’s a good link for that debate…

chnetwork.org/journals/justification/justify_8.htm

GaryTaylor,

I agree. I posted James 2:24 earlier.

You are right about the irony in the “salvation by faith alone” argument. It usually goes with Sola Scriptura, which makes no sense at all. If we look to Scripture alone, we find one is not saved by faith alone–unless you extract verses from Luther’s German Bible, conveniently altered to support his belief in salvation by “faith alone.”

Peace,
Anna

 

[wisdomseeker]

A better argument would be that BTK didn’t actually have true faith, because someone with true faith wouldn’t willingly violate God’s commandments. The idea is that faith, and I mean real faith, brings with it a desire to follow God’s commandments and do good deeds, and BTK had neither.

Basically, it’s that you’re saved by faith, and that faith is evidenced by good works. Without good works, the faith probably isn’t real.

If this is true than we can consider that atheist are also saved since they sure do lots of good works and so do same sex people are also doing lots of good works. so, are all these people, a people of faith?

 

[Bran_Stark]

Your friend is mixing or confusing faith alone with once saved always saved. Many protestants and catholics confuse the two.

Yes I see these confused often. What Sola Fide means to me is that you must:

• Know your sins, and repent them
• Know that you cannot take them away from yourself by your own power
• Know that Christ can, and ask Him to

If at any point in your life you are lacking one of those three, then you are not “saved”, no matter what prayer or commitment you may have made in the past.

 

[wisdomseeker]

No friend…I ‘get it’…it is God’s Soverign Single act of Grace and Mercy in Christ by which we are reconciled to Him by faith…now by our works…we can NEVER do enough to merit God’s grace or forgiveness…it is a free gift bestowed by Him BECAUSE of the work of Christ…not by my works of righteousness…but HIs Single work alone…“lest any should boast”.

I believe works are important…

On a side note…no English phrase or word appears in the original languages…the word choices used to seek to convey meaning of the original languages…“faith alone” no where appears in scripture…but then neither does “grace” “mercy” or any other word sequence in English you may wish to quote…all we have are translations…no one even claimed that “faith alone” was “mentioned” in scripture…so we are saved by God’s astounding grace by faith…not of works…works are the by product of our salvation…the “proof” so to speak…works are necessary for our sanctification and our continued walk with God…the works He “predestined” us to do.

I don’t think you and I disagree on the subject…but we are not saved…our salvation freely bestowed by God in Christ is His work and His alone…we respond in faith to His grace…we do not “work” for HIs favor…His favor…His grace is totally unmerrited in every way…our “righteousness is as filthy rags” compared to His Work the has been done FOR US ON OUR BEHALF BY CHRIST JESUS.

How about salvation by obedience to what God requires from us?

It seems that salvation comes by obedience. God’s grace yes, but if you are not obedient, the Grace passes by you and no salvation is reached. how about that?

 

[wisdomseeker]

For clarification, I am a former protestant minister both Anglican and Southern Baptist.

Your friend is mixing or confusing faith alone with once saved always saved. Many protestants and catholics confuse the two.

Faith alone deals with salvation. Protestants, and as a minister I was taught, to pick a verse or collection of verses and from there a doctrine or theology is formed. These verses are usually taken out of the content in which they were written either the epistle or gospel or secular history. One such passage is Romans 4:1-4 where St Paul talks about Abraham’s faith and how it appears Abraham did nothing working out his salvation. It would appear ST Paul contradicts Jesus when Jesus responds to the young man in Matt 19:17 by telling him to keep God’s commandments if he wanted to enter enteral life.

What some protestants are doing out of their great love for God is going to far, like some in the early church when too far one way or the other in Christology. To protect God they feel they have to take away the gift or curse of freewill. Some go too far the other way with process theology in which free will trumps God and God has no idea what we are going to do and even if Christ will be successful upon the cross.

Faith Alone I can see and understand with out agreeing. But Once saved always saved is a theology most protestants reject. The more baptistic or fundamentalist the more the group is into OSAS. They believe if you walk the aisle, say the prayer and ask Jesus into your heart you are saved. They take verses like Jesus saying those the father has given me I will not cast aside or lose, etc. What they fail to understand is are they assuming they are inthe hands of Christ. Just because you did a certain ritual, it does not bind Christ to your will or desires. In Matt 7:20-25 Jesus talks about those who have the outward signs but not the inward change.

As a Baptist minister, I buried many people who lived outwardly evil lives. Lives rejecting Christ and God and all of the teachings. But, because when they were 8 years old and walked an aisle and said a prayer…they were saved and are now in heavy. Even if in the subsequent 80 years they lived like a demon.

Again most protestants reject OSAS. Your friend is in a minority group, they are vocal that is why they seem so numerous, that hold to this non-scriptural teaching.

Salvation is a work, a constant work. Jesus on the cross was a work. Someone presenting the gospel to us a work. our acceptance or not a work and how we live our lives a work. Not a burden at all.

My 2 cents.

Mark

I like how you described the different beliefs of diferent sects. It takes me back in time when certain sects were formed along with the Catholic church in one form of belief or another about Jesus(God) and the Catholic Church had to continue to defend the Truth. interesting how we still lhave this today.

 

[Publisher]

How about salvation by obedience to what God requires from us?

It seems that salvation comes by obedience. God’s grace yes, but if you are not obedient, the Grace passes by you and no salvation is reached. how about that?

Eph 2:9 “9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.”

 

[wisdomseeker]

Eph 2:9 “9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.”

So, it is by faith and works. correct?

how about obedience, can you address this?

 

[The_GreyPilgrim]

Yes I see these confused often. What Sola Fide means to me is that you must:

“Means to me”…Isn’t this rather subjective?

Shouldn’t one who is from the “reformed” side go by the definitions of the reformers rather than redefining the terms to suit themselves?

• Know your sins, and repent them
• Know that you cannot take them away from yourself by your own power
• Know that Christ can, and ask Him to

If at any point in your life you are lacking one of those three, then you are not “saved”, no matter what prayer or commitment you may have made in the past.

I not arguing with your approach. Repentance is necessary and faith is necessary. But isn’t “knowing” and asking Christ to take away your sins; aren’t they really acts, or works, of the intellect and will?

Isn’t there a normative and objective way, that is something that God does to us rather than what we subjectively do or experience, so that we know that the effects of Christ’s Redemption has been applied to us?

 

[Publisher]

So, it is by faith and works. correct?

how about obedience, can you address this?

It is the work of God…our salvation…it is not our work…but His and His alone In Christ Jesus…we become “new creations in Christ”…we have a new “nature” that can respond to God in faith…our “works” and our “obedience” IS the fruit of our faith…it IS the fruit of our salvation…not the CAUSE of it…our good works were prepared for us to do by God Himself…

Catholics wish to separate “faith” from “works” and say it is a combination of the two…Protestants do not see “works” as the means of our salvation…but as the products of our santification…we obey God BECAUSE of what He has done for us that we could not do four ourselves.

Salvation is the GIft of God alone…it cannot be earned…it cannot be “worked for”…that’s why Christ died…to do for us what we could not do for ourselves…we have salvation NOT because of what we do…but because of what HE HAS DONE FOR US.

If you find the tenents of the Catholic church best explains “faith and works” for your walk with God…wonderful…I share in your joy.

For me…I am humbled and awed by the astounding mercy and grace of God that He has shown for me in Christ Jesus…

Your view that “faith and works” are both necessary for God to begin to work in my life and sanctify it…to make me more like Christ…to walk in obedience as Jesus did to the Father’s will…leaves me “cold”…my faith is too small and weak…“Lord I believe…help my unbelief.”…"We see through a glass darkly…I have nothing to boast about concerning my salvation…any work I present to God and claim…“See I’ve done many good works…so I am saved.” doesn’t satisfy me…It is His work in me and His work alone that causes good works in my life…“not of works lest any man should boast”…It is His work and His work alone…both salvation and sanctification…my “new nature”…this divine nature I now posses is all from Him…my new nature, redeemed because of what Christ has done, causes me to seek to be obedient to Him…it satisfys me…“it is Christ in us, the hope of glory”…not me.

You must embrace those views which satisfy you in your walk with God…

 

[rinnie]

It is the work of God…our salvation…it is not our work…but His and His alone In Christ Jesus…we become “new creations in Christ”…we have a new “nature” that can respond to God in faith…our “works” and our “obedience” IS the fruit of our faith…it IS the fruit of our salvation…not the CAUSE of it…our good works were prepared for us to do by God Himself…

Catholics wish to separate “faith” from “works” and say it is a combination of the two…Protestants do not see “works” as the means of our salvation…but as the products of our santification…we obey God BECAUSE of what He has done for us that we could not do four ourselves.

Salvation is the GIft of God alone…it cannot be earned…it cannot be “worked for”…that’s why Christ died…to do for us what we could not do for ourselves…we have salvation NOT because of what we do…but because of what HE HAS DONE FOR US.

If you find the tenents of the Catholic church best explains “faith and works” for your walk with God…wonderful…I share in your joy.

For me…I am humbled and awed by the astounding mercy and grace of God that He has shown for me in Christ Jesus…

Your view that “faith and works” are both necessary for God to begin to work in my life and sanctify it…to make me more like Christ…to walk in obedience as Jesus did to the Father’s will…leaves me “cold”…my faith is too small and weak…“Lord I believe…help my unbelief.”…"We see through a glass darkly…I have nothing to boast about concerning my salvation…any work I present to God and claim…“See I’ve done many good works…so I am saved.” doesn’t satisfy me…It is His work in me and His work alone that causes good works in my life…“not of works lest any man should boast”…It is His work and His work alone…both salvation and sanctification…my “new nature”…this divine nature I now posses is all from Him…my new nature, redeemed because of what Christ has done, causes me to seek to be obedient to Him…it satisfys me…“it is Christ in us, the hope of glory”…not me.

You must embrace those views which satisfy you in your walk with God…

How do we separate faith from works? We have a problem with faith alone without works. The problem we have is faith alone without Grace. Thats where we disagree highly with the faith alone issue.

Now if Salvation cannot be worked for, what did God put us on this earth for? Why are we told to obey his commands and do his work? What is the purpose then? While I agree we are saved by the Grace of God by his grace and the cross does not mean we can lose his saving grace by our sin.

So if you are correct the person who does good works lives out the word of God and then the person who does not do good works and care less about living out the commands of God are all going to the same place then?

Simply because as you said there is nothing we can do earn our Salvation. Is it not by Gods grace that he made it possible for us to do good works. Is there not our part to be done to complete what he has asked of us.

What about free will then? What about the people who refuse to accept his Grace and do his good works. Salvation is for them as well as for the person who from free will accept the work and commands given to then?

Because again there is nothing you claim that we can do either way correct?

Why is it so hard for people to believe that just because Jesus died on the cross and made it possible for us to be saved, that we can lose that salvation by our own free will and sin.

If all are saved by the Cross why does Christ say all will not enter heaven?

So the 10 commandments are not works? What are they?

 

[rinnie]

If we have salvation not on what we do but what God has done for us, what about the Devil? The one who rejects the grace of God.

Because if you are correct no matter what WE do we cannot lose Salvation. Why does doing the works of God seem to make you think that it takes away from the Cross and the Salvation Christ earned for us.

Why can you not see our good works do not take away but add to the Cross. That by the Grace of the Cross good works are possible, and by faith and Love for Christ by our own free will we accept his Grace and use it.

 

[rinnie]

And why does the word of God say faith w/o works are fruitless?

 

[Publisher]

And why does the word of God say faith w/o works are fruitless?

Why does it say all our righteousness is as filthy rags before God?

 

[Publisher]

And why does the word of God say faith w/o works are fruitless?

Why does it say…“not of works lest any man should boast?”

We could do this all day…bottom line…you and I must stand before God and give account of ourselves…I’m planning on standing in perfect confidence before Him…not for what I have done…but for what Christ has done for me which I received from Him in faith…by his astounding grace and mercy.

Both of us will rely on His grace and mercy we’ve received in Christ at the Last Day…we will be judged according to our works…but our “works” pale to nothing in comparison of what Christ Jesus has done for us ALONE. Our salvation and sanctification IS His work in us…His grace and mercy are undeserved but given anyways because of what Christ has done…He became one of us to do for us what we could not do for ourselves.

 

[Publisher]

Just an observation from the peanut gallery… Catholics sure like to “proof text” when it suits purpose…just like Protestants…we have so much in common…yet we want so desparately to be separate from one another…now…back to our regular scheduled program.

 

[Dave_B]

Just an observation from the peanut gallery… Catholics sure like to “proof text” when it suits purpose…just like Protestants…we have so much in common…yet we want so desparately to be separate from one another…now…back to our regular scheduled program.

Hi there! I think Catholics are speaking the truth here. They are saying you are saved by faith AND works.

Whereas some protestants say the FALSE doctrine of faith alone. Which is very clearly contradicted by scripture