Problem understanding "faith alone"

[PJM]

=Publisher;7867099]In so far as all creation is governed by God’s permissive will. The survival of the Catholic church was not by divine decree…no…it’s survival is no more a “testament” to “God’s plan” than was the Reformation.

REALLY ?

Are you from a “Bible church”?

So why then my friend did Jesus Christ found the CC; and a SINGLE New Faith; perfecting and completing what was taught from Adam on in the OT? Was that not a planed part of His Mission on Earth?

God actually and (name removed by moderator)erson founding His CC seems to me like a “decree.” And he remains in the CC in Person.

The NT has OVER 100 references to ONLY One Church; Only One Faith founded on On New Covenant.

I’m anxious to get your understanding of these questions.

God Bless,
Pat

 

[Publisher]

But if you believe that the Bible has errors, who are the spiritual thinkers that you rely on that forms what you believe?

would you say that Catholics have a lot more to believe that any others?

where did you get the belief that Jesus was a 100% man? what about 100% God, do you believe this?

It seems that there lots of things that you dont know or understand. Would you say that the CC does explains a lot of things that you dont know or understand?

The Bible is a compilation of what others have come to believe about God…and a record of their experiences with God…whether the Bible is 100% historically accruate or not…is not an issue with me.

Catholics have “defined” things I do not think were necessary to define…the assumption, immaculate conception, rituals as sacrament…I don’t think Catholics have a “a lot more to believe than any others”…seems to me a lot of “holy speculation”…the Mormons are right up there with you on “things to believe” and “holy speculation”.

Jesus was 100% human and lived as a fully human man…“though being equal with God, did not see equality with God to be something to be grasped…tenaciously clung to…but emptied himself and instead, became a servant…” God lived among us…“the Word was made flesh…”…if claiming he was 100% man and 100% God satisfies for you the Mystery of the Incarnation…great.

I don’t believe the Catholic church…or any church “explains a lot of things that I don’t know or understand”…some fiath communities claim to have the answers…that is not proof for me…just to claim to have an answer doesn’t mean the answer is right or accurate. If the claims of the CC satisfy you…wonderful.

I have a “simple faith”…and according to some I’m sure…one without much depth…but the depth I have gleaned among Friends keeps me busy seeking to understand how to put my beliefs into action…how to “live my faith” in this world and find meaning…“What does “living in incarnation with Him” mean to me and our world?” I’m still a Seeker…and will be till the day I die…“then face to face we shall know…”

That you find peace trusting in your church is a great comfort to you I’m sure…it offers no such “comfort” for me…but that’s me.

 

[PJM]

=Publisher;7867599]The Bible is a compilation of what others have come to believe about God…and a record of their experiences with God…whether the Bible is 100% historically accruate or not…is not an issue with me.

Catholics have “defined” things I do not think were necessary to define…the assumption, immaculate conception, rituals as sacrament…I don’t think Catholics have a “a lot more to believe than any others”…seems to me a lot of “holy speculation”…the Mormons are right up there with you on “things to believe” and “holy speculation”.

The Bible is beacuse it has to be 100 truhful; or it is of NO VALUE at all. Having shared this truth the Bible is NOT a “history book” it is a recalling of th history of the Hdebrew nation. The Bible claims the morals as true; but not necessarily the actual history of dates and the like. The Bible while true in not always literal.

Jesus was 100% human and lived as a fully human man…“though being equal with God, did not see equality with God to be something to be grasped…tenaciously clung to…but emptied himself and instead, became a servant…” God lived among us…“the Word was made flesh…”…if claiming he was 100% man and 100% God satisfies for you the Mystery of the Incarnation…great.

READ John Chapter 1; the frist 6 verses.

John.14[6] Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me. [10] Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority; but the Father who dwells in me does his works. [11] Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father in me; or else believe me for the sake of the works themselves.
[20] In that day you will know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you

Matt.11[27] All things have been delivered to me by my Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and any one to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

Matt.16[27] For the Son of man is to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay every man for what he has done.

Matt.28[19] Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

John.3[35] the Father loves the Son, and has given all things into his hand.

John.5[19] Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing; for whatever he does, that the Son does likewise. [20] For the Father loves the Son, and shows him all that he himself is doing; and greater works than these will he show him, that you may marvel. [21] For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom he will. [22] The Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son, [23] that all may honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him. [26] For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself

John.6[27] Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of man will give to you; for on him has God the Father set his seal." [40] For this is the will of my Father, that every one who sees the Son and believes in him should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day."

John.14[13] Whatever you ask in my name, I will do it, that the Father may be glorified in the Son;

1John.[22] Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son. [23] No one who denies the Son has the Father. He who confesses the Son has the Father also. [24] Let what you heard from the beginning abide in you. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, then you will abide in the Son and in the Father.

I don’t believe the Catholic church…or any church “explains a lot of things that I don’t know or understand”…some fiath communities claim to have the answers…that is not proof for me…just to claim to have an answer doesn’t mean the answer is right or accurate. If the claims of the CC satisfy you…wonderful.

It near impossible to find what your not looking for

Mt. 15:15-19; John 20:19-26 [In the VERY Power of God]; Jn 14;16-17 FOREVER! Jn. 17:15-19…ONLY the CC has Christ as the warranty of her Truths on Faith Beleifs and Morals!

I have a “simple faith”…and according to some I’m sure…one without much depth…but the depth I have gleaned among Friends keeps me busy seeking to understand how to put my beliefs into action…how to “live my faith” in this world and find meaning…“What does “living in incarnation with Him” mean to me and our world?” I’m still a Seeker…and will be till the day I die…“then face to face we shall know…”

IF YOUR SINCERLY seeking the truth send me a PM:thumbsup:

 

[Publisher]

IF YOUR SINCERLY seeking the truth send me a PM:thumbsup:

Friend PJM,thank you for the kind offer…I think you would be lacking in being able to offer Truth to me that is not already available to me…but thank you just the same…

 

[wisdomseeker]

The Bible is a compilation of what others have come to believe about God…and a record of their experiences with God…whether the Bible is 100% historically accruate or not…is not an issue with me.

Catholics have “defined” things I do not think were necessary to define…the assumption, immaculate conception, rituals as sacrament…I don’t think Catholics have a “a lot more to believe than any others”…seems to me a lot of “holy speculation”…the Mormons are right up there with you on “things to believe” and “holy speculation”.

Jesus was 100% human and lived as a fully human man…“though being equal with God, did not see equality with God to be something to be grasped…tenaciously clung to…but emptied himself and instead, became a servant…” God lived among us…“the Word was made flesh…”…if claiming he was 100% man and 100% God satisfies for you the Mystery of the Incarnation…great.

I don’t believe the Catholic church…or any church “explains a lot of things that I don’t know or understand”…some fiath communities claim to have the answers…that is not proof for me…just to claim to have an answer doesn’t mean the answer is right or accurate. If the claims of the CC satisfy you…wonderful.

I have a “simple faith”…and according to some I’m sure…one without much depth…but the depth I have gleaned among Friends keeps me busy seeking to understand how to put my beliefs into action…how to “live my faith” in this world and find meaning…“What does “living in incarnation with Him” mean to me and our world?” I’m still a Seeker…and will be till the day I die…“then face to face we shall know…”

That you find peace trusting in your church is a great comfort to you I’m sure…it offers no such “comfort” for me…but that’s me.

You still did not answer my questions. where did you get the belief that Jesus is a 100% man?

So, you dont believe that Jesus is God?

How do you know for sure that what the Church defines is not necessary?

Ah but the CC does explains a lot, you said so yourself.

Ah but Catholics do believe a lot more than any others. Yourself mentioned many things that you dont believe and we do. So, in truth we have a lot more to believe than you or others. dont you agree?

Yes, what the CC says satifies me and I have no need to seek anywhere, neither have any desire to do so because the CC have the answers to satisfy all men. You see that is what happens when one finds the Truth. They no longer seek. They are satisfied.

I can tell that you are still seaching for the Truth. That is a good thing.

You do know that this Book you are reading from came from the CC, right?

 

[rinnie]

In so far as all creation is governed by God’s permissive will. The survival of the Catholic church was not by divine decree…no…it’s survival is no more a “testament” to “God’s plan” than was the Reformation.

So then when Christ said he was sending the advocate the Holy Spirit to lead the Church until the end of time this is not the true word of God?

 

[rinnie]

The Bible is a compilation of what others have come to believe about God…and a record of their experiences with God…whether the Bible is 100% historically accruate or not…is not an issue with me.

Catholics have “defined” things I do not think were necessary to define…the assumption, immaculate conception, rituals as sacrament…I don’t think Catholics have a “a lot more to believe than any others”…seems to me a lot of “holy speculation”…the Mormons are right up there with you on “things to believe” and “holy speculation”.

Jesus was 100% human and lived as a fully human man…“though being equal with God, did not see equality with God to be something to be grasped…tenaciously clung to…but emptied himself and instead, became a servant…” God lived among us…“the Word was made flesh…”…if claiming he was 100% man and 100% God satisfies for you the Mystery of the Incarnation…great.

I don’t believe the Catholic church…or any church “explains a lot of things that I don’t know or understand”…some fiath communities claim to have the answers…that is not proof for me…just to claim to have an answer doesn’t mean the answer is right or accurate. If the claims of the CC satisfy you…wonderful.

I have a “simple faith”…and according to some I’m sure…one without much depth…but the depth I have gleaned among Friends keeps me busy seeking to understand how to put my beliefs into action…how to “live my faith” in this world and find meaning…“What does “living in incarnation with Him” mean to me and our world?” I’m still a Seeker…and will be till the day I die…“then face to face we shall know…”

That you find peace trusting in your church is a great comfort to you I’m sure…it offers no such “comfort” for me…but that’s me.

Also just a quick question where do you get your information that Jesus is indeed Fully Man and Divine? Where do you learn about Jesus at all? If not for the Catholic Church.

How do you claim to get this information that you seek w/o the Church or history to lead you. How do you even know about the Holy Spirit? Do you claim that you found this out on your own without any teaching from anyone or any source at all?

Are you getting my point here Publisher? How are your thoughts validated I am asking? And then what happens when you feel you are so right about something, and then as time goes on you find out your were completly wrong? Then how are you sure what is right and what is wrong if you are relying on yourself to figure things out.

The word of God says that Jesus left us the Church. The word of God is indeed in the bible. You need proof Pub. How can you say one word of scripture is indeed the word of God, but then turn around and reject another. What is your source for this. You must have some kind of reason for this.

 

[Publisher]

So then when Christ said he was sending the advocate the Holy Spirit to lead the Church until the end of time this is not the true word of God?

Our definitiion of “church” is the sticking point…I do not believe the organization called the “Catholic church” IS God’s only 'true church"…there are members of the institutional Catholic church who are part of The Church…just as there are members of the Society of Friends…and memebers of the Methodist church…and members of the Assembly of God…and members of the Mormon church that comprise the One Church…also the Advocate is for ALL those of the redeemed…not just the apostles…the Holy Spirit indwells ALL BELIEVERS.

 

[Publisher]

Also just a quick question where do you get your information that Jesus is indeed Fully Man and Divine? Where do you learn about Jesus at all? If not for the Catholic Church.

How do you claim to get this information that you seek w/o the Church or history to lead you. How do you even know about the Holy Spirit? Do you claim that you found this out on your own without any teaching from anyone or any source at all?

Are you getting my point here Publisher? How are your thoughts validated I am asking? And then what happens when you feel you are so right about something, and then as time goes on you find out your were completly wrong? Then how are you sure what is right and what is wrong if you are relying on yourself to figure things out.

The word of God says that Jesus left us the Church. The word of God is indeed in the bible. You need proof Pub. How can you say one word of scripture is indeed the word of God, but then turn around and reject another. What is your source for this. You must have some kind of reason for this.

Again Rinnie…I do not believe the Bible is a specifically “Catholic” book…certainly through the Orthodox/Catholic institutions, the Bible was preserved…but it was not written by “Catholics” and is not Catholic sole domaine…

How do I know what is “right and wrong”? Through scripture, prayer, listening to our Present Teacher who is Truly Present among us, and my faith community as we gather to “discern the mind and will of God”.

I don’t beleive in the “santitized” “faith promoting” history the instituitional Catholic church puts forth for itself…you do…the Bible is a vehicle through which the Holy Spirit speaks…but it is not the “primary” rule of faith for me…nor is my “church”…

Through my own study over these last 4 decades, I have come to see the Bible as a great book of spiritual insight…it is not a “history” book…it is not an “eyewitness” account of what actually happened…it is a faith communities understanding of what THEY came to believe about God…the Word of God is present with us…

I don’t know for certainty that everthing I beleive is 100% accurate…Friends seek “immediate personal and corporate revelation” as well as scripture and history to determine God’s movement among us.

Any “proof” I would offer would be most likely dismissed out of hand…I would recommend the writings of Bart Erhman, Elaine Pagels, Marcus Borg, John Spong, Rufus Jones, Thomas Kelly to you if you truly wish to understand…much of your confusion would be “cleared up”…I am not interested in changing your beliefs…if your beliefs make sense to you and provide you with a “sensible” world view and understanding of God…I’m good with it…I simply do not share your belief in your church or it’s history.

 

[Publisher]

You still did not answer my questions. where did you get the belief that Jesus is a 100% man?

He was born of a woman…barring any metaphysical tangets…that would make him human…wouldn’t it?

So, you dont believe that Jesus is God?

Again…I answered the question…just not to your satisfaction…“Somehow” God lived among us in the man Jesus of Nazareth…“though being in the form of God, he did not see equality with God to be something grasped…but he emptied himself and became a servant.” “The Word was made flesh and dwelled among us”…"He is the exact representation of the invisible God. Correct me if I misunderstand…but are you looking for a “creedal statement” of some sort which “qualifies” my words ot your satisfaction?"

How do you know for sure that what the Church defines is not necessary?

The institurtional Catholic chruch is a man made organization…just as is the Society of Friends, Methodist chruch, Latter-day Saint church or Presbyterian church…I do not believe it it’s teachings as set forth…you do…and I applaude your belief if that brings peace to you."

Ah but the CC does explains a lot, you said so yourself.

Yes…it does “explain” a lot…but it’s “explanations” do not satisfy me…“explaining” doesn’t mean “acceptance” or even “Truth”…is is an “explanation” based on it’s religious beliefs…which I do not share.

Ah but Catholics do believe a lot more than any others. Yourself mentioned many things that you dont believe and we do. So, in truth we have a lot more to believe than you or others. dont you agree?

Having “more to believe” doesn’t mean that all that you believe is accurate or true…you just have more to believe…and the “explanations” to religious questions satisfy you…the “answers” put forth by the Catholic church do not satisfy mey questions.

Yes, what the CC says satifies me and I have no need to seek anywhere, neither have any desire to do so because the CC have the answers to satisfy all men. You see that is what happens when one finds the Truth. They no longer seek. They are satisfied.

Yet, I am satisfied with the tools I have to find Truth…I do not find “what the CC says” as satisfying…it is a human organization.

I can tell that you are still seaching for the Truth. That is a good thing.

It will be a life long search…it is a Journey and a process…one day…“we shall see, face to face”. Truth is not a cleanly worded precise document to adhere to…Truth is somethign we live.

You do know that this Book you are reading from came from the CC, right?

It definitely was preserved and finally compiled by the Catholc/Orthodox chruch…thank you for your efforts. It is greatly appreciated…but Truth is not ONLY contained in the Bible.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Publisher:
But that is a problem. what you believe today, somebody told you. so, you believe these people but not the CC. why is that?

 

[Publisher]

But that is a problem. what you believe today, somebody told you. so, you believe these people but not the CC. why is that?

For “whom” is it a problem…for me…or for you? I can live with the “problem” you indicate I have in dealing with the Holy Mystery of God.

I was “told” a great deal of stuff…but since my salvation is MY RESPONSIBILITY I choose to “work out” my “salvation” based on my own God given reason and common sense as to what makes sense to me, based on scripture, history, and most of all my own experience with God.

I do not simply “believe today” because “somebody told me.” What I believe today is due to study, prayer and a deep amount of soul searching and “experiential” knowledge with God as I have sought to “know him and the power of his resurrection”.

That you believe my criteria is “flawed” is not a problem with me…I beleive yours is flawed…BUT because of God’s mercy and grace, He redeemes flawed people just the same.

 

[TEPO]

For “whom” is it a problem…for me…or for you? I can live with the “problem” you indicate I have in dealing with the Holy Mystery of God.

I was “told” a great deal of stuff…but since my salvation is MY RESPONSIBILITY I choose to “work out” my “salvation” based on my own God given reason and common sense as to what makes sense to me, based on scripture, history, and most of all my own experience with God.

I do not simply “believe today” because “somebody told me.” What I believe today is due to study, prayer and a deep amount of soul searching and “experiential” knowledge with God as I have sought to “know him and the power of his resurrection”.

That you believe my criteria is “flawed” is not a problem with me…I beleive yours is flawed…BUT because of God’s mercy and grace, He redeemes flawed people just the same.

Are you saying that our willingness to accept and carryout “works” that serve to build stronger faith in God have nothing to do with salvation? If this were true, then nobody would ever have to accept Jesus Christ in their heart at all to be saved… They would not be required to do anything at all, including follow the ten commandments.

Or are you simply stating that acts of charity have nothing to do with salvation… This I agree with.

 

[Publisher]

Are you saying that our willingness to accept and carryout “works” that serve to build stronger faith in God have nothing to do with salvation? If this were true, then nobody would ever have to accept Jesus Christ in their heart at all to be saved… They would not be required to do anything at all, including follow the ten commandments.

Or are you simply stating that acts of charity have nothing to do with salvation… This I agree with.

You may want to go back and read all of my posts on this subject…short version…works ARE the fruit of faith…No…your understanding is not what I am saying…nor your ‘conclusion’ of “if this were true…”

 

[wisdomseeker]

For “whom” is it a problem…for me…or for you? I can live with the “problem” you indicate I have in dealing with the Holy Mystery of God.

I was “told” a great deal of stuff…but since my salvation is MY RESPONSIBILITY I choose to “work out” my “salvation” based on my own God given reason and common sense as to what makes sense to me, based on scripture, history, and most of all my own experience with God.

I do not simply “believe today” because “somebody told me.” What I believe today is due to study, prayer and a deep amount of soul searching and “experiential” knowledge with God as I have sought to “know him and the power of his resurrection”.

That you believe my criteria is “flawed” is not a problem with me…I beleive yours is flawed…BUT because of God’s mercy and grace, He redeemes flawed people just the same.

Ah, but it is a problem for you. if you learned from those who rejects the CC, then that it is exactly the path you are going to follow.
Like the CC says, one needs the Oral Tradition and written Word of God. I know that you got written Word from the CC. Where did you the O Tradition from?

 

[rinnie]

For “whom” is it a problem…for me…or for you? I can live with the “problem” you indicate I have in dealing with the Holy Mystery of God.

I was “told” a great deal of stuff…but since my salvation is MY RESPONSIBILITY I choose to “work out” my “salvation” based on my own God given reason and common sense as to what makes sense to me, based on scripture, history, and most of all my own experience with God.

I do not simply “believe today” because “somebody told me.” What I believe today is due to study, prayer and a deep amount of soul searching and “experiential” knowledge with God as I have sought to “know him and the power of his resurrection”.

That you believe my criteria is “flawed” is not a problem with me…I beleive yours is flawed…BUT because of God’s mercy and grace, He redeemes flawed people just the same.

Now we are getting somewhere. So now you agree with our Salvation is not all done for us although Christ made it possible we do have our own WORKS to do. Now this we can agree on and is indeed Catholic teaching.

 

[rinnie]

Again Rinnie…I do not believe the Bible is a specifically “Catholic” book…certainly through the Orthodox/Catholic institutions, the Bible was preserved…but it was not written by “Catholics” and is not Catholic sole domaine…

How do I know what is “right and wrong”? Through scripture, prayer, listening to our Present Teacher who is Truly Present among us, and my faith community as we gather to “discern the mind and will of God”.

I don’t beleive in the “santitized” “faith promoting” history the instituitional Catholic church puts forth for itself…you do…the Bible is a vehicle through which the Holy Spirit speaks…but it is not the “primary” rule of faith for me…nor is my “church”…

Through my own study over these last 4 decades, I have come to see the Bible as a great book of spiritual insight…it is not a “history” book…it is not an “eyewitness” account of what actually happened…it is a faith communities understanding of what THEY came to believe about God…the Word of God is present with us…

I don’t know for certainty that everthing I beleive is 100% accurate…Friends seek “immediate personal and corporate revelation” as well as scripture and history to determine God’s movement among us.

Any “proof” I would offer would be most likely dismissed out of hand…I would recommend the writings of Bart Erhman, Elaine Pagels, Marcus Borg, John Spong, Rufus Jones, Thomas Kelly to you if you truly wish to understand…much of your confusion would be “cleared up”…I am not interested in changing your beliefs…if your beliefs make sense to you and provide you with a “sensible” world view and understanding of God…I’m good with it…I simply do not share your belief in your church or it’s history.

But you just said another KEY word. My Church or my Church’s history. Peter can be tied to my Church. It is indeed history. Now how can you deny my Church’s History but then turn around and accept the words of St Peter who even to this day is buried in My Church.:yup:

 

[TEPO]

You may want to go back and read all of my posts on this subject…short version…works ARE the fruit of faith…No…your understanding is not what I am saying…nor your ‘conclusion’ of “if this were true…”

I’ve already skimmed over all your posts and they lack detail… All I see is alot of the typical “my church/your church” rhetoric…

I give up. I guess I was’nt meant to understand Quakerism.

 

[rinnie]

For “whom” is it a problem…for me…or for you? I can live with the “problem” you indicate I have in dealing with the Holy Mystery of God.

I was “told” a great deal of stuff…but since my salvation is MY RESPONSIBILITY I choose to “work out” my “salvation” based on my own God given reason and common sense as to what makes sense to me, based on scripture, history, and most of all my own experience with God.

I do not simply “believe today” because “somebody told me.” What I believe today is due to study, prayer and a deep amount of soul searching and “experiential” knowledge with God as I have sought to “know him and the power of his resurrection”.

That you believe my criteria is “flawed” is not a problem with me…I beleive yours is flawed…BUT because of God’s mercy and grace, He redeemes flawed people just the same.

Now I personally have no problem with understanding the Trinity. Never have. We simple have the word from God the Father.

God made human through the Son Jesus Christ.

And God leading the Church today by the Power of the Holy Spirit that he promised the Apostles.

Now how can the Holy Spirit that was promised to the Church on Pentecost which history itself shows ties into the CC not be the true Church, when again as History can prove was led by St Peter. He was the first Pope. Succession can be showed and proven.

And how can the Holy Spirit tell you one thing and the CC another and still be the truth. How can there be more than One Truth. And you must show where you have authority to prove the truth you say you have.

The CC can prove the Authority from the laying of hands from the beginning of Christ to date. You must admit rather you agree or not, thats some pretty powerful truth there.

 

[Publisher]

But you just said another KEY word. My Church or my Church’s history. Peter can be tied to my Church. It is indeed history. Now how can you deny my Church’s History but then turn around and accept the words of St Peter who even to this day is buried in My Church.:yup:

Peter can certainly be “tied” to those first faith communities…but Peter “falls off the map” after Acts…he is mentioned by Paul…and the two letters subscribed to him were not written by Peter.

That your faith community embraces the legends and “tradition” concerning Peter doesn’t sway me…Peter didn’t write anything in the NT…neither did John, Luke, Matthew, Nathaniel or any of the original twelve. Paul is the only “apostle” we have a reasonable certainty of authorship…and not all the epistles claiming Paul as author are authentic.

Peter can certainly be tied to the Catholic church through it’s traditions.