Problem with the Catholic Church's teaching on abortion in cases of rape

[Tis_Bearself]

Even our CCC agree with me, therefore infant baptism.

No, the CCC does not agree with you.

I have flagged your posts as being very much against Catholic teaching.

I don’t think it’s productive to argue with you, because these things you are saying are very much wrong.

 

[TwoNames]

I am sure you are also appalled at how women is treated by this generation. I understand your zeal to save children. But in places where women’s right is trampled, their children’s children rights is trampled as well.

We cannot save the children by treating women unjustly.

How about all those women who are being aborted? Are they being treated justly?

 

[GusArvidson]

God can also choose not to allow a women to become pregnant when such an act occurs.

God gave us freewill. This allows us to make our own decisions regardless of how sinful it will be. Although God will sometimes intervene, with something this common, he wouldn’t prevent the fruit of a sin committed while using freewill. I understand that the women didn’t consent, but if a child never came after rape, wouldn’t rape become more common? If God wouldn’t do it every time, how would He pick which ones to intervene?

 

[TwoNames]

I think that sometimes when debating abortion, is a good idea to step back from religious arguments and just go to the plain science and ask the following three questions:
a. Is that (child, fetus, clump of cells, whatever you call it) a HUMAN being?
b. Is it alive?
c. Is it okay to kill it?

a. The DNA says YES, without a doubt it’s a human with unique DNA code - different from both parent’s DNA code

b. Yes it is alive - it is growing.

c. Looks like we can not agree on this one.

(for the records I’m against killing human beings).

 

[GusArvidson]

@JoyfulTune

Why are you answering on a Catholic answer site if you obviously aren’t Catholic? You can argue all you want, but the Catechism clearly says, “Human life must be respected and protected absolutely from the moment of conception. From the first moment of his existence, a human being must be recognized as having the rights of a person - among which is the inviolable right of every innocent being to life.” You said you did research in the CCC, but how did you miss the first thing written under abortion?

 

[Anicette]

A husband who would leave a woman after she was raped would be doing her a favor.

I don’t know if it is cynism or serious.

But no, absolutely not, being abandonned by a husband, and after a rape to add, is never doing the woman a favor. Quite the contrary, it would be a plain disaster for her.

 

[stpurl]

User profile is now hidden. Could be she’s taking a ‘vacation’ that starts with S or B.

 

[Elf01]

But no, absolutely not, being abandonned by a husband, and after a rape to add, is never doing the woman a favor. Quite the contrary, it would be a plain disaster for her.

I think a man who would abandon his wife if she was raped is not a good husband (or man for that matter). It would be better if she had never married him in the first place, but I’d rather be alone than narried to that type of man, and I think there would likely be other traits in him that would bother me.

 

[Rozellelily]

@Polak

I completely understand how you feel. There are women that have been raped and have chosen to have the child and love the child very much. But for “us” to actually say to a woman in this situation that according to the Catholic Church they must do this or they are in mortal sin, or some other insensitive & detached words, is something that I could never say to these women, even if I wish that she would do that.

We always assume that a woman in this situation would definitely not want to keep the child because we are bombarded with messages that that is the only possible “normal” emotional reaction that you would have in this situation.
But I have heard women who have kept a child from this situation say that sometimes they had mixed emotions -joy from being pregnant, but also horror from the realization that the rapist is the father.

It is awful to hear that some women even feel judged for keeping the child!

I truly feel that change can happen through mass media. with pro-life /Catholic Church funding to bring to the publics attention the stories of the women that have had a rapist’s child and don’t regret it and love the child. On mainstream things like Youtube, Dr Phil etc…

We as a society are constantly “educated” in one way towards pro-choice by the majority. “Everyone” is pushing this viewpoint: from politicians (in my country), to feminists, feminist men, and…perhaps even worse of all, by A LOT of medical doctors. And where does a woman go when something awful like this happen to her?
To the doctor of course.

So really, she never receives a balance of views. So this way, when a horror like this happens, the victim can at least have in her mind also those stories, so that she at least makes the decision with more balance.

But how to do this if media refuse, or governments even block attempts at balance and call the attempts as abuse instead…

But, hopefully “if allowed”, on a media scale, another “option” can be promoted, if only governments let “us”…

It is one think for a woman to make a decision, but what is really sad is when organizations use abortion as a “solution” for bad things in the world. E.g; the below article, Rohingya Muslims were raped by a Buddhist soldier but shame is directed towards them for bearing a Buddhist child. Twisted stuff.
So, instead of changing the mentalities of people, and teaching them not to shame or blame the girls, they take the girls to the abortion clinic.
So the loser is the baby, and the girl, and the whole of society and humanity…

https://www.seattletimes.com/nation...hadows-rohingya-rape-survivors-babies-arrive/

 

[Rozellelily]

uch reasoning may work for us Catholics

it doesn’t even work for many Catholics.

but I’d rather be alone than narried to that type of man,

this may “work” for America, but in some other countries the man is the only breadwinner. And if she is single, many men won’t want to marry her if she has had another man’s baby, and some even more so if it is “the enemies baby”. Some people may even think that she wasn’t even raped but just slept with the enemy side etc. So if no man wants her, & the village even shames her…it’s very tragic all round.

 

[Elf01]

this may “work” for America, but in some other countries the man is the only breadwinner. And if she is single, many men won’t want to marry her if she has had another man’s baby, and some even more so if it is “the enemies baby”. Some people may even think that she wasn’t even raped but just slept with the enemy side etc. So if no man wants her, & the village even shames her…it’s very tragic all round.

True, but the Church should focus on addressing those attitudes rather that accomodate them.

 

[Anicette]

think a man who would abandon his wife if she was raped is not a good husband (or man for that matter). It would be better if she had never married him in the first place, but I’d rather be alone than narried to that type of man, and I think there would likely be other traits in him that would bother me.

It’s your opinion.

But when you are married you are married. We can self pity and think this marriage is a bad choice.
Yet, a mother need a husband. A pregnant mother need in many way. Definitely a woman who have had a sexual trauma need a man by her side. He doesn’t need to worth it, or be the best man, but be here, that’s the minimum.

Some women could not support themselves emotionally, financially and practically. If raped, her emotions will be much more explosive. Death not far away (abortion tempatation of destruction or suicide).

 

[Rau]

But when you are married you are married. We can self pity and think this marriage is a bad choice.
Yet, a mother need a husband. A pregnant mother need in many way. Definitely a woman who have had a sexual trauma need a man by her side. He doesn’t need to worth it, or be the best man, but be here, that’s the minimum.

The idea that “any man” is always better than “no man” is a fiction.

Supportive care and kindness are necessary.

 

[Anicette]

Definitely some women would never been able to face a difficult pregnancy with no husband.
If this happens, we should not be surprised if some women would choose an abortion

The man you have married is not fictional. He exists. It’s better that he is here, even with his limits- and an unplanned pregancy, or one from another man can put him to his limits- than left.

 

[Rau]

The man you have married is not fictional.

Straw man.

 

[Elf01]

Definitely some women would never been able to face a difficult pregnancy with no husband.
If this happens, we should not be surprised if some women would choose an abortion

The man you have married is not fictional. He exists. It’s better that he is here, even with his limits- and an unplanned pregancy, or one from another man can put him to his limits- than left.

I think even a pro abort would agree that a woman shouldn’t have an abortion to keep a man. If a mans wife has been raped he needs to focus on supporting her, and that includes if she gets pregnant as a result. If the couple can’t raise the child, adoption is an option.

 

[Cathoholic]

I do accept the teaching, because I believe that choosing not to accept any Church teaching leads to a slippery slope of picking and choosing, ‘well I already don’t accept that, so why not also reject this?’

You are doing the right thing (affirming Church teaching).

I too affirm it because I see God speaking to us through the Chuch in authoritative matters such as this.

 

[otjm]

I won’t pretend however, that I haven’t struggled internally, when being questioned by pro-choicers with arguments such as, ‘what about in cases or rape? What if the mother is going to die?’

There are two separate issues in your question.

As to rape: Does it make any difference if the mother kills the child prior to birth, or gives birth and then kills it? She has still killed (directly, or indirectly by abortion) an innocent human being. The issue of abortion after rape is a matter of feelings (and I have absolutely don question about the reality and legitimacy of her feelings about the rape); so now we should add to that with the feelings about killing her child? The presumption that she will have no feelings concerning aborting her child is simply not believable.

Th second issue is far more difficult for people to understand, as it is a question of ethics and intent. It comes up with ectopic pregnancies; and the Church’s position is that if the purpose and intent of the operation is to save the mother’s life and is not to abort the child, then the operation is morally acceptable.

The difficulty is that most people who struggle with this issue cannot separate act from intent. The result may be the same, but the intent is radically different.

 

[JoyfulTune]

Catholicism is not merely moral theology alone. Neither do we argue for difficult cases from one interpretation or one view point and disregard the scriptures.

Our Tradition places the scriptures at the center of arguments in all councils. Thus, those who argue from CCC alone, or their own perspective on the magisterium alone, or moral theology alone, while disregarding scriptures, these are placing their own view points on a shaky ground.

These quotes are most important in the OT, because it is taken from the place where God defined the Decalogue (the 10 commandments)

Deuteronomy 5:9-10
9 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and fourth generation of those who reject me, 10 but showing steadfast love to the thousandth generation of those who love me and keep my commandments.

The very same verse is also found in Exodus:

Exodus 20:5-6
You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me, 6 but showing steadfast love to the thousandth generation of those who love me and keep my commandments.

The Decalogue is the core of The Torah. You cannot argue moral theology while disregarding the above scriptures.

To make compulsory for victim of rape to carry the child of the rapist is creating a new law that opposes/ disregards God’s law. OTOH, consulting God in prayers opens the way to His Mercy. But this is by choice, not by creating a new law (a moral law that disregard scriptures). Just as love & baptism cannot be forced on anyone, God’s Grace cannot be forced on the woman too. What if she feels disgusted the whole 9months, wiill there be an impact on the fetus? What if God has rejected the fetus? Would it be a sin to force it on the woman to carry it?

I agree that life begins at conception in married couples. I do not think life begins at conception in rape cases. It begins whenever God’s forgiveness enters the victim’s heart. And it is not up to her either. God’s grace is up to God, not up to any humans to decide

Even in places where abortion is illegal, in rape cases, abortion is allowed. This is done in good conscience of the law. Religious moral law should not jeopardise justice principle in serious crime cases. Because if it does, it jeopardize the moral values in itself

 

[runningdude]

If a woman becomes pregnant from an act of rape, it feels as though it’s completely against God’s plan of how children are to be brought into this world.

Well yeah, that’s because rape is indeed directly contrary to God’s will. It is a violation of the woman’s dignity and free will.

That doesn’t make killing an innocent child a rational or proportional response to such an evil.