Problem with the Catholic Church's teaching on abortion in cases of rape

[Raxus]

Evagelization of God’s mercy. Not by force. Not by law.

Bullchonk. That’s like saying that theft or murder of adults shouldn’t be against the law.

The womb belongs to her.

The baby is its own unique, human life. The womb is irrelevant (beyond the fact that a womb is where a developing baby is supposed to be safe and secure, BY GOD’S DESIGN.)

You cannot force a woman to give their child to adoption as well.

No one said anything about that. There shouldn’t be any reason why a woman wouldn’t want to give a child away to adoption instead of killing it, however.

You have no actual argument. None whatsoever.

 

[Raxus]

It is a sad thing that you do not trust the bible.

You’re twisting the words of the Bible to your own agenda in support of the killing of babies.

 

[Raxus]

And you ignore what the bible say.

No, YOU do.

 

[amazingcatholic]

The mother can give the baby up for adoption. Abortion robs woman of their dignity. It would traumatize the mother even more. Abortion is always a sin. All lives are sacred and precious in God’s eyes. I used to believe abortion was OK in the case of rape, but since then I changed my mind. Don’t kill a sweet, innocent baby just because of the evil it’s father committed.

 

[JoyfulTune]

Hail Mary, full of grace
The Lord is with you
Blessed are you among women, and
Blessed is the Fruit of your womb, Jesus

Thankyou mother Mary for your obedience to the Father’s will, to carry to term the Body of our Savior, Jesus Christ.

Mother Mary, pray for us

Thankyou Saint Joseph for your obedience to the Father’s will, to be faithful at Mother Mary’s side, despite the scourge of culture of the time against her pregnancy

St. Joseph, earthly father of Jesus Christ, pray for us.

Abba Father in Heaven, you have given us a new covenant, in which no longer do you demand payment from children for the sins of the parents. We claim this promise through the sacrifice of your Son Jesus Christ who has died on the cross two thousand years ago. And by His resurrection, may You give all children in the womb a new life, apart from the parents sins. We ask this through Christ our Lord.

Our Father who are in Heaven
Holy be Your Name
Your Kingdom come
Your Will be done on earth as in Heaven
Give us each day our daily bread
Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us
Do not bring us into temptations
Deliver us from evil

Come Holy Spirit, with Your Mighty Power,
renew the face of the earth.

Amen.

 

[AlNg]

The child is an innocent 3rd party, having no responsibility for the acts of the father.

From where are you getting this nonsense?

In the case of any child, is he not an innocent party who has no responsibility for the sin of Adam and Eve. And yet the child is cursed with the original sin of the acts of their distant parents, Adam and Eve. It is possible that the child will never be able to get to heaven, but will remain in Limbo if he is not baptized. True, the doctrine has recently been modified, but that is not what the teaching was when the Baltimore Catechism was written.
There is another question and that is whether or not oral contraceptives are abortifacient? I heard different answers to this with some saying yes, others saying no. And is contraception allowed immediately after a rape? Some say yes it is not abortion, others say no?
According to Pope Francis: “Paul VI, a great man, in a difficult situation in Africa, permitted nuns to use contraceptives in cases of rape,” he said.

What did Pope Francis actually say about contraception? | Catholic News Agency

 

[stpurl]

Oh seriously now. There are so many enormous differences in what you’re comparing that it would literally take a couple of days to show you what the Church actually teaches as opposed to your throwing around words like “Limbo’’; the true story behind the ‘nuns and contraception’ which can be traced back to, not a real event but a hypothetical proposition and which was obviously, since it never occurred, never definitively spoken on, etc.

Typical though. Put in a hodgepodge of bland ‘suppositions’ and conversations, no actual citations from the catechism or other official documents, and sit back and prepare to ‘yes but’ anything you hear in response.

Luckily there will be people who aren’t on their lunch hours and needing to return to the salt mines who can competently point out where you have (as usual) ‘gone wrong’. I keep trying to tell myself that individuals who are constantly misrepresenting the Catholic Church in the very same ways, post after post after post, might still be legitimately confused and not with an agenda. But some posts make it very hard to continue such a charitable belief.

 

[Raxus]

And by His resurrection, may You give all children in the womb a new life, apart from the parents sins. We ask this through Christ our Lord.

Our Father who are in Heaven

You advocate killing children in the womb on one hand, and pretend like you don’t to God Himself with the other?

Sick. Absolutely sick.

 

[JoyfulTune]

I am agreeing that the mother (or any other humans) shall not put themselves in the place of Yahweh punishing the child.
Eventhough according to the law of Moses the baby is the heir of the father, by the Grace of God all can/ are possible to be saved (one day in their life time, God may touch him/her, and be saved).

So I am agreeing that all life is precious, and deserve a chance. This, by the grace of God

That’s why I said the grace.

I do not know how to reconcile this with the fact that not all mothers believe in the Grace of God in Jesus Christ. But then again, all things is possible (between now and the end of one’s life time, God may touch the person and so he/she be saved. Nobody can determine the fate of anybody else). In that hope I pray that all babies in the womb get their chance to life, in Jesus Christ our Lord.

We have to be aware that in most notorious rape cases a woman being beaten, choked, to almost die while being gang raped. When the bible say that God punish the child for the sin of the father, only Jesus Cross could bring forgiveness to that child.

I do not believe in mere human efforts able to save the whole world. Only by the Grace of the Cross humanity can be saved.

On that note, I maintain my position to continue to defend the mother’s free choice: if after all alternative information given, all evangelization, all graces said, all support offered, if after all that the mother insist to abort, I would not say to her “you are a murderer” because it may be a false accusation, and we end up pronouncing the curse to the wrong person.

Please read the story of Bathsheba & King David: Because of the sin of King David murdering Bathsheba’s husband in order to mary her. God’s said, that the child must die, because of David’s sin.

Bathsheba’s Child Dies​

2Samuel 12:13-18
13 David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the Lord.” Nathan said to David, “Now the Lord has put away your sin; you shall not die.
14 Nevertheless, because by this deed you have utterly scorned the Lord, the child that is born to you shall die.”
15 Then Nathan went to his house.
The Lord struck the child that Uriah’s wife bore to David, and it became very ill.
16 David therefore pleaded with God for the child; David fasted, and went in and lay all night on the ground.
17 The elders of his house stood beside him, urging him to rise from the ground; but he would not, nor did he eat food with them.
18 On the seventh day the child died.

 

[jeannetherese]

I would not say to her “you are a murderer” because it may be a false accusation, and we end up pronouncing the curse to the wrong person.

If she went to an abortionist to procure the death of her child, the child’s blood is upon her hands.
Fortunately god extends His merciful hand to all, rapist and murderer alike. If either of them repent for the harm they have caused, the sacrament of confession is available and they may be cleansed of their sin.
May God guide us all to repent of our sins and seek His mercy.
Amen.

 

[VeryBlessed]

Deuteronomy 5:9-10
9… I, Yahweh, am your God, a jealous God, who punishes the children until the third and fourth generation for the wickedness of their parents who hate me.

So we are allowed to abort in case of rape because this one verse supposedly empowers us, if we are an innocent victim of sin, to respond by punishing (even murdering) our own children? So think it through, does this apply to ANY sin my spouse may commit? So if my spouse gambles away the grocery money I can beat my children? If my spouse robs a store I can starve my children? Who appointed US as the punisher? If I am empowered to be punisher in one scenario, how far do I carry that?

In all my years of being a Christian, reading through the Bible multiple times, leading Bible studies, I have never heard this interpretation of this verse, ever. The punishing this verse speaks of is not a deliberate punishing. It is an unintentional consequence of all sin. It is God warning us that the natural consequences of our sin are much more far reaching than we realize.

Abortion is intrinsically evil. Therefore any logic defending its use will always need to twist logic. So, most defenses of abortion use semantics to justify it (fetus, zygote, clump of cells, personhood). But this particular justification is a new one to me, that if I am a victim myself, I am now empowered to victimize innocent bystanders. Abortion is a more tempting choice in some circumstances granted, but as an intrinsic evil, it never rises to the level of acceptable.

Btw JeanT, I excerpted the verse from your post but my comments are in response to all posters and not aimed at you specifically…

 

[JoyfulTune]

So if my spouse gambles away the grocery money I can beat my children? If my spouse robs a store I can starve my children? Who appointed US as the punisher? If I am empowered to be punisher in one scenario, how far do I carry that?

In all my years of being a Christian, reading through the Bible multiple times, leading Bible studies, I have never heard this interpretation of this verse, ever.

I have never hear the above interpretation either. Not mine.

The punishing this verse speaks of is not a deliberate punishing. It is an unintentional consequence of all sin. It is God warning us that the natural consequences of our sin are much more far reaching than we realize.

I agree to this interpretation.

Abortion is intrinsically evil.

So is rape. It has consequence far reaching more than our logic can understand.

 

[stpurl]

Nobody is saying that rape doesn’t have far-reaching consequences or that it is not horrible.

But a woman who is raped is NOT ‘justified’ by God for aborting her child. Nothing in Scripture or in Catholic Christian teaching (or ANY Christian teaching to my knowledge) conflates the verses you are taking about “God’s punishment’ or about the child being ‘the rapist’s heir’ earlier to make it appear that God wants us to punish innocent children because their father raped their mother.

I echo another poster earlier—such an idea is simplllly SICK.

 

[stpurl]

Are you **SERIOUSLY ** comparing an innocent unborn child to a weed, and abortion as a simple ‘weed killer?”

Like I said, SICK.

 

[Fauken]

Are you **SERIOUSLY ** comparing an innocent unborn child to a weed, and abortion as a simple ‘weed killer?”

Like I said, SICK.

Something I also wonder is that if it is permissible to kill a baby produced as a result of rape, why stop there? Are babies produced as a result of fornication also permissible to abort? How about the children of heretics, schismatics, and apostates? How about the children of fathers who have committed any of the Four Sins that Cry to Heaven for Justice? I mean, rape isn’t one of those four, so why not also abort the children of murderers, those who cheat the laborer of his wages, those who commit sodomy, and oppressing the poor? Those are sins which cry to Heaven for justice, after all, that must mean the children of such people are evil spawn.

Yes, that idea is disgusting, anathema to Catholic teaching, and to be condemned in the strongest terms.

 

[Fauken]

But if she’s filled with disgust , despite all the support & prayers, that may as well be the sign God has rejected the child .

Do you have any idea what you’re proposing? What slippery slope you present by making it okay to murder someone based on feelings? Because they “prayed” about it and “God”, the author of life, says “Murder your child”?

“Well, I prayed to God, and God filled me with disgust at the idea of remaining married to you. He’s cursed you. Best you die now.”

 

[Tis_Bearself]

And God will punish not only you, but your children’s childern for sin related to blood and/ or idolatry.

This is not correct and not in accordance with Catholic teaching.

But if she’s filled with disgust , despite all the support & prayers, that may as well be the sign God has rejected the child .

God does NOT reject children, any children, regardless of how they were begat or how their mother feels about them.

I don’t know where you are getting these ideas from, but it’s not from the Catholic Church.

 

[stpurl]

Ms. Tune’s profile states that she was raised Catholic (raises eyebrows here) but ‘prefers an ecumenical approach.”

Like Moloch, perhaps?

 

[stpurl]

You know I’m getting tired of hearing you claim ‘what God says’ and cherry picking snips of Scripture.

Your views are not Christian. They aren’t Muslim or Jewish. They aren’t atheistic or agnostic. They are a muddled mess of your ‘personal opinion’ concocted from the lord knows where and based upon your questionable ‘creds’. You aren’t a theologian, you aren’t a scholar, you just ignore St. Peter and make personal interpretations in rather substandard English about what God ‘really is and says’ and just keep on doubling down with name-calling for those who ask you WHERE you come up with these assertions.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

It looks like the person’s opinions are based on their own interpretations of Scripture. Unfortunately, that went down a wrong path just like it always does when somebody thinks they know more about what the Bible means than the Magisterium knows.