Problem with the Catholic Church's teaching on abortion in cases of rape

[Polak]

My thought is that abortion doesn’t remove the effect of the rape/trauma in the slightest. From the perspective of the victim/mother, it simply adds trauma to trauma.

That could be so, but many women have also had abortions and not felt as much trauma doing them as they would have if they had to go through pregnancy and have their baby. I know this might be in part because they don’t understand the gravity of what they are doing when they have an abortion, but for a lot of woman, having an abortion was a relief and a ‘way out’ of their traumatic situation.

Is God cruel because we suffer or are tested?

Probably not. Actually what you wrote lit up a light bulb.

If you get horrendously beaten by a gang of thugs and end up in a wheelchair, do you have a right to kill yourself, because this isn’t the life you imagined for yourself and shouldn’t have to live like this because of something others did to you? The answer would obviously be no. Perhaps it is similar in cases of rape? You don’t get to end a life because of something terrible that happened leading up to that life, as hard as that might be to do.

No. See my response above to Erundil to understand what I meant.

 

[Annie]

you get horrendously beaten by a gang of thugs and end up in a wheelchair, do you have a right to kill yourself, because this isn’t the life you imagined for yourself and shouldn’t have to live like this because of something others did to you? The answer would obviously be no. Perhaps it is similar in cases of rape? You don’t get to end a life because of something terrible that happened leading up to that life, as hard as that might be to do.

[123456789]

 

[Tis_Bearself]

But I think @Polak is trying to argue from the perspective of what’s going to be best for the victim/mother. Is “removing an effect of the rape/trauma” truly what’s best for the mother?

If we go by that, then a whole lot of pregnancies that don’t happen due to rape are arguably not “best for the mother” or are “traumatic for the mother”. And we’re down the slippery slope of killing a whole lot of babies.

Let’s face it, pregnancy can be stressful, traumatic, difficult, and a cross to bear. People aren’t into bearing crosses these days.

 

[Phillip_Rolfes]

That could be so, but many women have also had abortions and not felt as much trauma doing them as they would have if they had to go through pregnancy and have their baby. I know this might be in part because they don’t understand the gravity of what they are doing when they have an abortion, but for a lot of woman, having an abortion was a relief and a ‘way out’ of their traumatic situation.

Perhaps so. I can see that.

My gut reaction is that it still doesn’t provide a definitive “way out” of a traumatic situation because the woman is always going to bear the traumatic event itself in her memory (and in her body for that matter). The only thing an abortion potentially does is remove the most immediate product of the traumatic event. But it does nothing to provide authentic psychological and emotional healing for the victim/mother. The only thing that will provide such healing will be the care and support of those who love her.

Then we also come to the question of whether it’s right to punish/execute the child for the sin (violation, crime, whatever you want to call it) of his/her father. Does a child deserve death simply because his/her conception was the product of a heinous act? The good of two people have to be kept in mind here, not just one.

 

[Polak]

Thanks @Annie, @Vico, @Phillip_Rolfes for trying to help me with my doubts on this Church teaching, rather than argue with me as though I were pro-abortion.

I think it is a bit clearer in my mind now.

I suppose the essence of this is simply, life begins at conception, and we do not have a right to kill another human being. Whatever scenarios come about, those two points must be remembered and kept to. Also, perhaps something good can come of something terrible, just as the suffering of Jesus has led to our salvation. Perhaps the child the raped woman ends up having is going to make her extremely happy and help her get over what led to it being born?

I have another question now, connected to this issue. Since abortion is murder, do Catholic politicians and/or a Catholic president, have a duty as Catholics to make it illegal in any case, given that so many people might not share the same belief that life is created by God? Would this be forcing your belief on others, to make it illegal for a raped woman, or a woman who has been told that she is going to die if she has her baby, to have an abortion?

 

[Peeps]

Years ago, when went through some rather extensive training to be a “shepherding home” (providing housing and other needs to women going through a “crisis” pregnancy), we learned that bearing the child conceived in a rape and giving birth to that child are extremely HEALING acts that help the woman to recover from her rape trauma. Studies were presented–now I know that for every study done, there are studies that prove the opposite. But my point is that this wasn’t just nuns and wide-eyed Evangelicals making wild statements to get all of us volunteers teary-eyed and hyped-up to give money to their cause. Most of our presenters were medical personnel, psychaitrists and counselors, and law enforcement professionals, as well as nuns and wide-eyed Evangelicals–in other words, people with first-hand experience.

A pregnancy and birth are not traumatic and painful in the same way that other serious illnesses or injuries are traumatic and painful. Although many pregnancies bring about unpleasant or painful symptoms, many women grow stronger as they bear these symptoms for the sake of the innocent little one who is living inside her.

Same for birth (vaginally or by C-section). This is a certainly not a pleasant experience (what an understatement!), but women throughout the centuries have discovered an inner strength that gets them through it, and afterwards, the joy and triumph of bringing a new life into this world.

Whether the woman decides to keep her baby or allow him/her to be adopted by a family who longs for a child–either way the woman knows that she has done a noble and mighty act by bearing a child, and THIS helps her to heal from her rape trauma.

If she aborts the child, she just adds one violent act to another violent act–that is not healing at all, and a woman is at risk for suffering extended trauma.

 

[Vico]

…
Since abortion is murder, do Catholic politicians and/or a Catholic president, have a duty as Catholics to make it illegal in any case,…

The inalienable right to life of every innocent human individual is a constitutive element of a civil society and its legislation: “The inalienable rights of the person must be recognized and respected by civil society and the political authority. These human rights depend neither on single individuals nor on parents; nor do they represent a concession made by society and the state; they belong to human nature and are inherent in the person by virtue of the creative act from which the person took his origin. Among such fundamental rights one should mention in this regard every human being’s right to life and physical integrity from the moment of conception until death… The moment a positive law deprives a category of human beings of the protection which civil legislation ought to accord them, the state is denying the equality of all before the law. When the state does not place its power at the service of the rights of each citizen, and in particular of the more vulnerable, the very foundations of a state based on law are undermined… As a consequence of the respect and protection which must be ensured for the unborn child from the moment of conception, the law must provide appropriate penal sanctions for every deliberate violation of the child’s rights.”
(Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, Instruction Donum Vitae , III).

 

[goout]

… but it’s incredibly hard for me to understand how forcing a woman to keep and raise her rapists child is humane.

Yes it is very difficult.

 

[Irishmom2]

What if the mother is going to die?’

This is often offered as an argument, but rarely the case.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

This is often offered as an argument, but rarely the case.

Especially in our modern times, when pregnancy doesn’t carry the life-threatening risk it did in the 19th century and earlier.

I’m reminded of the old best-seller “The Cardinal” which was supposedly based, VERY loosely in my opinion, on the life of Cardinal Spellman. There’s a gruesome scene where a young mother pregnant out of wedlock will die a horrible death if the baby in the process of being born isn’t brutally murdered in an equally horrible way. Novelists and Hollywood would have you think this is a usual case. It’s not.

 

[Lea101]

abortion has been shown in numerous studies to also be a traumatic and extremely painful event for the woman; not infrequently resulting in lifelong physical, emotional, and psychological damage. In what way would offering this be “caring” for the victim of rape?

Abortion has also provided relief for some women, and not getting an abortion has added more trauma for women as well (i believe I cited some links about this in a similar thread a while back). Unfortunately, the idea that abortion is traumatic for most women is often exaggerated. I wouldn’t use this as a defense.

It’s honestly a crappy situation overall.

Even saying adoption isn’t good enough. Many rape victims, even with no pregnancy, struggle with feeling like someone has invaded their body. I’m sure we’re familiar with certain behaviours they tend to exhibit, such as scrubbing themselves raw for example. Imagine how much worse they would feel carrying a constant reminder of the incident. Even after adoption, the woman’s body permanently changes (stretch marks, or other health complications).

This isn’t to justify abortion. But I do agree with the OP and your first comment, it’s an honest struggle that brings about a lot of dissonance.

 

[Lea101]

Would this be forcing your belief on others, to make it illegal for a raped woman, or a woman who has been told that she is going to die if she has her baby, to have an abortion?

Laws impose morals all the time. It’s illegal to kill a 5 year old, even if every single human in her life hates her and wants her dead (i.e. Death doesn’t bring harm to anybody else). Because we acknowledge that it’s immoral.

I never really understood this point, that we’re forcing our morals on people, because non religious people have morals and they impose them too.

It is “forcing your belief”, but that isn’t enough to say that it is wrong since we all impose our morals, religious or not, on others. Why the double standard?

Some have argued, and this is true for many pro lifers in my country (where abortion is settled, basically), that we should focus on changing the majority view before looking at the law since the law is often the reflection of the existing culture (as in, it’s unrealistic for the government to impose something that a large majority does not want).

 

[stpurl]

God knows rape (a power crime that involves sex) is horrific. But we cannot ignore that a child resulting from that rape is absolutely innocent. Whether the woman wanted a child or not (and there are situations where married women who could afford a child do not want THIS child at THIS time and abort the child, so it isn’t simply something that is limited to rape and incest cases), there is a child there..

Eliminating that child is murder. And I think we need to be reminded that Catholic teaching (and this comes from the Man Upstairs, not ‘celibate old men’) teaches that the end does not justify the means; that means that even if we would supposedly bring about a ‘good’ (the wishes of the mother to abort and her supposed recovery from trauma, peace of mind, not having to deal with the effects of pregnancy, etc.) we absolutely may not do the evil of aborting an innocent child.

 

[Lea101]

God knows rape (a power crime that involves sex) is horrific. But we cannot ignore that a child resulting from that rape is absolutely innocent. Whether the woman wanted a child or not (and there are situations where married women who could afford a child do not want THIS child at THIS time and abort the child, so it isn’t simply something that is limited to rape and incest cases), there is a child there

If this is directed to me then yes, hence why I’ve said:

This isn’t to justify abortion. But I do agree with the OP and your first comment, it’s an honest struggle that brings about a lot of dissonance.

 

[stpurl]

Well, to me there is just no dissonance at all. Murder is murder. Rape is horrible, but it is still no justification for the murder of a child.

 

[Lea101]

Well, to me there is just no dissonance at all

Good for you! (really)

 

[Polak]

I never really understood this point, that we’re forcing our morals on people, because non religious people have morals and they impose them too.

That’s true they do.

I think the example of a non-religious pregnant woman who has been told by her doctor that having her baby is almost certainly going to end her life, then being told she isn’t allowed to have an abortion by law, would to her and many other atheists, essentially be a forced death sentence. I know it’s been argued that death of the mother during pregnancy isn’t common, but it still happens and a law preventing abortion to prevent death of the mother, would be unfathomably unfair to those of no religion I would imagine.

Some have argued, and this is true for many pro lifers in my country (where abortion is settled, basically), that we should focus on changing the majority view before looking at the law since the law is often the reflection of the existing culture

That’s a fair argument to make. Sadly I think most of the tools in this culture war are in the hands of non-religious liberals.

 

[Lea101]

I think the example of a non-religious pregnant woman who has been told by her doctor that having her baby is almost certainly going to end her life, then being told she isn’t allowed to have an abortion by law, would to her and many other atheists, essentially be a forced death sentence.

It is truly a crappy situation. Most of my friends are non religious and lean left regarding social values. While I don’t agree with their views, I totally get where they’re coming from. And like you said, it does seem like a death sentence.

Although I will pause to add here: I believe Catholicism allows the removal of a uterus even if the fetus is still living if it is done to save the mother’s life. Or chemo/other procedures tjan can kill the fetus.

Even then, I’m sure to a non religious woman, it is an infertility sentence as she would have to have her organ/part of it removed, when in her perspective, she has to take a procedure that makes her infertile+kill the fetus instead of a direct abortion that would have given her another chance of conceiving again.

So yeah…it is really not an easy situation. It’s uncomfortable to talk about, which is why people have been talking to you as if you are pro choice, because…how else can we talk about it? We know a life is a life, but it doesn’t erase away all the painful scenarios. Which is why I take comfort in changing minds first before law (cop out, i know, although I’m not against the other way around generally if done right).

 

[ValleyCatholic]

The answer to rape, one of the most detestable things that can be done to a human, is not to convince or condone the person raped to now become complicit in murder. Murder does not absolve rape. I think many miss this point.

 

[Gorgias]

With rape we are essentially saying, a man committed a terrible act of violence against a woman and she must give birth to and raise the fruit of this act of violence and violation

Wait – who says that she must raise the child? That’s not part of the scenario of the Church’s moral teaching.

God can also choose not to allow a women to become pregnant when such an act occurs (and yet he doesn’t do it)

That’s because He doesn’t intervene – as such – in human activity. This is a red herring.

Forcing the woman to have the child just seems so incredibly cruel.

Is killing the child not cruel to that child?