Problem with the Catholic Church's teaching on abortion in cases of rape

[jeannetherese]

Those are topics fit for threads of their own. But they are a distraction from the issue of abortion.

 

[VanitasVanitatum]

Should a rapist be eligible for custody of a child he fathered?

No.

Should a rapist be on the hook for child support?

He has a duty for the life he created.

 

[Anesti33]

Okay then: should a rapist be able to stop the abortion of a child he fathered?

 

[StudentMI]

Such a sensitive topic. But I gotta say, to excuse the abortion of a child conceived in rape is like looking into the face of such a child grown up (of which I can cite examples) and saying your mom had the right to kill you. Ugh.

 

[MNathaniel]

Should a rapist be eligible for custody of a child he fathered?

should a rapist be able to stop the abortion of a child he fathered?

I am going to moderate my language here and use one word instead of three:

What?

Why on earth would you consider these appropriate or relevant questions? Have I missed something from earlier in the conversation that my phone just isn’t letting me scroll to? Are these questions rhetorical?

No, surely obviously a rapist should not be eligible for custody of the child conceived through his rape of the mother.

And the baby’s right to life should have nothing to do with either parent deciding to kill him or her. So if we’re going to use the word “should” we can just skip forward to: doctors should refuse to kill babies and the state should protect them and mothers should be supported through the challenges of pregnancy and childcare. The rapist gets no part in this process of “should” at all, unless it’s the sentence where he “should” be in jail and if ever released, have a lifetime prohibition against ever contacting the mother or coming anywhere near her (and sure, “should” have automatic deductions from all his future paycheques to be forwarded to the mother and child).

PS I’ve now googled and find it horrifying to learn that there are genuinely US states that allow rapists to fight their rape victims for custody of the child. No. Full stop no. As far as I’m concerned a rapist forfeits every right he has when he commits rape, and I’m fine with the death penalty for it (unless the Church really really insists that this is ‘inadmissible’).

If this is a line that for some reason divides any pro-lifers/ pro-choicers, I’ll happily join the pro-choicers in this. Killing a baby is off the table: but apart from that, I am there for a mother having every right in the book, and a rapist having none (except to a fair trial).

 

[Leferdion]

I personally know a woman who was impregnated through rape and that child is the joy of her life. I have met the child myself…the sweetest 2 year old girl I ever met. The woman in question is a catholic and even though she was adviced by her non-catholic family and friends to abort she chose to keep it and now she is very grateful to God for that decision despite her still going through intense therapie due to the trauma of the rape.
We should never forget that our God is the creator and father of all souls, irrespective of circumstances of conception and birth, and our father in heaven will ALWAYS provide for HIS children, the more we trust in His providence, the easier our lives will be and the more we will realise how much He loves and takes care of us.
We all have our crosses to carry and we should pray God to give us strength to carry our heavy crosses and He will come to our help very swiftly.

 

[Polak]

Would your attitude be different if the rapist was her spouse?

Nope.

It seems to me that you are making an argument that the right to life is more appropriate for those who are going to live longer lives. Am I reading your argument correctly?

No you are not. I am saying if the baby is sure to die right after being born (or even during childbirth), should the mother not at least do what she can to protect her own life, rather than having two deaths?

Should atheists get to kill people in order to extend their own lives?

You completely missed my point. Try to read what I wrote again.

Well, there are Catholics who believe the death penalty should be legal. Furthermore, they believe the Church has in the past agreed with it.

There is adoption so that point is kind of fake.

Yes and I did make that case later, that she could give the baby up for adoption. Please don’t call my points fake, as if I were deliberately misleading people.

In these cases the mother’s life (if she chose) would be saved. The baby might die in the process but the intention was not to kill the baby.

I believe there have been cases however where the woman having the baby, that would not survive the birth, would die because she had it. Not having the baby however would save her life.

I personally know a woman who was impregnated through rape and that child is the joy of her life.

I am happy to hear this but it is an anecdote, and as has been mentioned, this isn’t likely to necessarily be the case for others.

 

[Leferdion]

its just an anectode you may say but something real I experienced which, who knows, could be quoted as an example and save the live of an innocent baby and give hope to a very wounded raped woman in despair. What does each raped woman want the most? to forget what happened, to go back in time so that it never happened, or to get healed from the wounds of the trauma. We all know the first 2 things are not possible (we cant go back in time and we cannot completely forget) but there is something that can be done, and that 1 thing is to provide hope and healing…and who else but God is the healer par excellence? How powerful prayer and the sacraments are!!! (even if the pregnant victim of rape thinking of arbotion blames God for her suffering, we should pray for her and the child, show her God is love and who knows what fruits will be planted in her heart). We should never underestimate the effect of a good anectode on igniting a spark of hope which will lead to healing in the heart of someone who is suffering. Our part is to accompany these women with Love and showing them the way to God and God will do the rest!

 

[Raxus]

‘what about in cases or rape? What if the mother is going to die?’

Killing a baby that is the product of rape doesn’t somehow “un-rape” the mother, or take away her trauma. It creates a second victim, and a legacy of death that could have been a legacy of life and healing.

My oldest sister is the product of date-rape. My mother chose to confront her trauma with courage, on her own, and gave up the baby for adoption. (I first met this sister when I was 13 or so.) She grew up to become a counselor that has helped others, and has led a life full of love and of hope.

Cases where the mother’s life is in jeopardy are so rare these days as to almost be non-existent, but even so, we can’t choose one life over the other.

 

[Raxus]

In other words @Polak, great good can come of great evil. My sister is indeed a great good in the world, and my Mom went to her grave thankful that she was able to face her trauma instead of being broken by it. It was healing for her.

 

[phil19034]

I look at it like this (from a logical point of view - not a theological one)… If the crime of impregnating a woman through rape demands a death sentence, why are we sentencing the baby to death and not the rapist?

Logic would dictate that if anyone deserves a death sentence, it should be the rapist, not the child.

 

[Anicette]

I am a little shocked by people who ask for death sentence for a rapist.

Of course everyone, knows that the Church currently oppose death sentence, the Vatican has abolished death penalty before many leading western european countries. The Church have never act as if death was an appropriate punishment for rape. (or only maybe in some cases only)

Despite that, rapists are not extraordinary people that distinguished themselves as first look as perverts. That’s why there is trials and a truth often difficult to established. At best, someone who is aware and experienced can recognized a profile in some of them (such as pedophiles). But on the average, they are just the people who are your collegues, your neighboors, your teachers, your priests (sadly), your doctors, your family members.

Maybe you don’t have any of them around you. Maybe you don’t know.

Or maybe you have met some, and you are shocked that some said they deserved to be killed. Punished yes, and that we should prevent them to start again as much as possible. And to give victims the consideration they deserve.

For the idea that the rapist should not have custody rights and nothing to do with the child conceived. I agree. Except to claim it as an absolute may not be well considered.
The rapist can be the husband. It can be difficult to proove , unless there is physical evidences.

The filiation will be legitimate and automatic.
So what next, are you agree that the father should not have something to do with the child?
Do you agree that after the trauma, the mother should be put in the unfair dilemna to either divorce or to loose custody of her child? Honestly, she may not be ready for any of this solutions, and it would be another abuse of her and very traumatic.

 

[Elf01]

Of course everyone, knows that the Church currently oppose death sentence, the Vatican has abolished death penalty before many leading western european countries. The Church have never act as if death was an appropriate punishment for rape. (or only maybe in some cases only)

I don’t think that the arguments are that the rapist deserves the death penalty, but that if anyone does it is him and not the child.

 

[phil19034]

I am a little shocked by people who ask for death sentence for a rapist.

Of course everyone, knows that the Church currently oppose death sentence, the Vatican has abolished death penalty before many leading western european countries. The Church have never act as if death was an appropriate punishment for rape. (or only maybe in some cases only)

No one said rapists should be given the death penalty, I know I didn’t say that.

The argument is why do people think it’s ok to give the baby a death sentence for rape, but not the rapist.

The argument details the logic breakdown of the “abortion should be legal for rape” argument.

 

[BornInMarch]

In the rape case, the child isn’t the one who committed the crime. Therefore for the child to be executed for the sin of their father would be morally wrong.

 

[Kei]

We do not kill a child because of the sin of the father.
God allows us to suffer, but this suffering helps us grow and offer our sacrifices. We must be very sympathetic and empathetic to these poor women, however, the child is innocent.
I have a relative who was raped and got pregnant. She had the child, the main thing she was worried about was that the child would look like the rapist. The child did. She utilized the adoption system. I think this is a good reason to use the adoption system. It can be difficult to bear the evils brought unto us, but Christ can walk with us to help us bear it. He knows what it is like to suffer violence innocently…and He can help us do it. There is hope, no matter what you’ve been through.

 

[Lea101]

I look at it like this (from a logical point of view - not a theological one)… If the crime of impregnating a woman through rape demands a death sentence, why are we sentencing the baby to death and not the rapist?

Because this sort of phrasing leads to a strawman argument tbh. In these cases, the woman is not getting an abortion as some sort of retribution/punishment, but rather, to avoid a traumatic and unwanted pregnancy. You dig a bit deeper and you’ll find that the root issue is more or less the same for all pro-abortion arguments: That they believe a embryo or fetus is not a life, and even if it is, they believe it’s not on the same level as a born human (and shouldn’t be treated as such).

As for people like OP, who doesn’t seem to believe in these premises and is pro life, there’s that difficulty where they know it’s a life and abortion is definitely wrong…but making a woman go through that pregnancy seems to be equally devastating or even appears more so in this lifetime.

For me it’s almost impossible to understand from an earthly perspective. Actually sometimes I don’t think it is possible to understand for us humans

Hence this.

 

[Youngling11]

In the case of rape there are three people involved. The woman, the rapist, and the child. Which one should be punished for the rape? Obviously not the woman, not the child, but only the rapist. Plus I’ve heard that women actually find healing from their traumatic experience by raising their child.

 

[Richca]

It is unjust to put to death an innocent human being which is the definition of murder and which is against the sixth commandment “Thou shall not kill”. In cases of rape, neither the woman nor the conceived child is guilty.

Forcing the woman to have the child just seems so incredibly cruel.

It is cruel to add evil upon evil and trauma upon trauma as other posters have mentioned. God draws evil out of good. The evil is the act of the rapist and the good is the conception of a new human life who has the possibility of eternal life and happiness with God in heaven like yourself. This is not cruelty but a very great good. It is good to exist and be alive.

That’s a fair point. I’m just thinking of the women who absolutely cannot get over this traumatic experience, and for whom having this baby is going to remind them of this act non stop, every time they look at him or her (I won’t say ‘it’ because it got some people really mad last time).

Have you ever interviewed or seen any interviews of women who have children that were conceived from being raped? I have seen some and the mothers are very happy they didn’t abort and they love their children and the children are very happy they are alive. For these women, their children give them joy and don’t think every time they look at them ‘I’m sorry I had you.’ As others have noted too, abortion is a traumatic experience for many women and many woman deeply regret having an abortion. So, I think your statement above is a broad generalization of your own thinking which does not necessarily hold for all women who have had or have children conceived from rape. We all have crosses to bear and God permits evil to draw good out of it especially for the salvation of our own souls and the souls of others.

 

[JoyfulTune]

It would be a fascinating sociological study, to take a look at women who decided to carry a baby that was a product of rape to term, and check their thoughts about their choice some 10 to 20 years later.

I always believe abortion is never the best choice for any women in any circumstances. But that is not the question here.

The question is whether it is good to force her to carry to term by law the unwanted pregnancy.

What if what God want to do is to build a world where man cannot use woman for mere sex and breeding tool?

I am sure there are good testimonies of people whose mother chose to raise them instead of aborting them. The keyword in those testimonies is, their mom chose, and not being coerced to do so by law.

Now supposedly I were a product of rape. And my mom gave birth of me simply because the law forced her to do so: After I reach the age of reason, I would deep in my heart, prefer that she carried me by her own choice, and not merely because the law force her to do so.

Hosea 4:14
14 I will not punish your daughters when they play the whore,
nor your daughters-in-law when they commit adultery;
for the men themselves go aside with whores,
and sacrifice with temple prostitutes;
thus a people without understanding comes to ruin.