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Ohana
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I agree. We used to have an accompaniest who had a way of “leading” by the way she emphasized or struck some notes. Kept people on track quite well. Its a gift!
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FrancisB
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What’s worse isn’t even the result that is got by this approach: when you ask for volunteers, you get amateurs. The real problem is that this has been allowed to go on so long that many in the pews and even the clergy think that the amateur guitar-and-drum band is what we are supposed to have.
I should think, however, that challenging hymns are probably best used as choral motets/anthems. Then, the ever-changing music makes it difficult for non-musicians to learn to sing more difficult tunes. Perhaps it would be best to let the people chant the ordinary and a closing hymn and leave the rest of the heavy lifting to paid choir-- you know, like the Vatican has repeatedly asked us to do…
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CatholicZ09
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Was “Lo, How a Rose” meant to be a choral piece? It seems like it was.
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DaveBj
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Wiki has a facsimile of the original 1599 printing, which shows only melody. According to the accompanying article, the harmonization that we’re familiar with was written by German composer Michael Praetorius 10 years later.
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FrancisB
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It’s a Lutheran hymn. It was originally intended to be sung by the congregation in unison, as was the tradition, but was quickly harmonised as the Lutherans began to change unison hymn tunes into the four-part chorales that we now recognise as hymns to-day. Hymns were originally unison pieces, and while harmony was a Catholic invention (from medieval Paris at Notre Dame), the sort of chorale style harmony that we know from Bach (also a Lutheran) came out of the Lutheran musical tradition in late 16th / early 17th Century Germany. To a certain extent, this underscores the fundamental problem with homophonic music in the Latin church…
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KarenElissa
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We sang that a couple of weeks ago and I am not a fan. I’m in the choir, so had time to practice it, and I read music very well, but I had problems catching on. For me the biggest problem was the longer notes were in funny places, not where I would have naturally wanted to hold the note. I’m not sure how the congregation did, I was too busy trying not to totally mess it up myself.
The two biggest problems I’ve noticed are funny rhythms and HUGE ranges.
Songs where the rhythm jumps around or where one verse is TOTALLY different than the others (we had one of these yesterday) are not going to be easy to learn, especially for people who don’t read music.
And songs where the notes jump from high to low and back again are NOT easy to sing. If the range is quite wide, but it goes up the scale, it is a bit easier, but there are some with these huge jumps and hitting those notes is crazy!
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Sarabande
Guest
It’s one of my favorite hymns, but some congregations aren’t used to this kind of music and it can be difficult, rhythmically. We sing it at one of the parishes where I work as a paid cantor and the congregation sings it pretty well, but it is something they have been doing for years, so they are accustomed to it. Plus, you have actual musicians leading it who will keep the rhythm strong and steady and not screw things up.
I personally like it better as a choral piece because I love all of the harmonies from the other voices and it just sounds more beautiful and inspiring to me. This past weekend, my husband had to attend mass at my parents’ home parish with our daughter while I worked at one of my church jobs. They apparently had only the cantor sing it as a solo, probably because the congregation doesn’t pick it up very well. It’s also one of his favorite hymns, though, and he knows it by heart, so he told me he sang the bass harmony from the pews. I hope the cantor didn’t mind, as some aren’t musicians and aren’t trained well enough to not be thrown off by things like that. Or, which I have met a few personally, they get upset that their “solo” was taken away from them. If the the latter was the case, then they should take that as a learning lesson in humility that singing at mass is not so they can showcase themselves. If there is a solo, it should be an absolute prayer and be accepted if someone was inspired enough to sing with you. I’ve had priests sing the Schubert “Ave Maria” with me at weddings or other masses dedicated to the Blessed Mother. It can really throw you off if you don’t just focus on the music, especially if the priest actually can’t sing and is completely off rhythmically, but it is heartwarming in a way. (The only bad thing about it at weddings is that the couple definitely did not want to hear the priest’s voice amplified through the church. Funny thing is that it’s the priests with the bad voices who usually want to sing along.)
I personally like it better as a choral piece because I love all of the harmonies from the other voices and it just sounds more beautiful and inspiring to me. This past weekend, my husband had to attend mass at my parents’ home parish with our daughter while I worked at one of my church jobs. They apparently had only the cantor sing it as a solo, probably because the congregation doesn’t pick it up very well. It’s also one of his favorite hymns, though, and he knows it by heart, so he told me he sang the bass harmony from the pews. I hope the cantor didn’t mind, as some aren’t musicians and aren’t trained well enough to not be thrown off by things like that. Or, which I have met a few personally, they get upset that their “solo” was taken away from them. If the the latter was the case, then they should take that as a learning lesson in humility that singing at mass is not so they can showcase themselves. If there is a solo, it should be an absolute prayer and be accepted if someone was inspired enough to sing with you. I’ve had priests sing the Schubert “Ave Maria” with me at weddings or other masses dedicated to the Blessed Mother. It can really throw you off if you don’t just focus on the music, especially if the priest actually can’t sing and is completely off rhythmically, but it is heartwarming in a way. (The only bad thing about it at weddings is that the couple definitely did not want to hear the priest’s voice amplified through the church. Funny thing is that it’s the priests with the bad voices who usually want to sing along.)
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Ohana
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At the parish I grew up in there was a family of people with excellent voices. They did 'LO" every Christmas time in solo and with parts. Rest of the choir not so good! It is a lovely memory of 60+ years ago.
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dochawk
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Bluntly, if the congregation either cannot our does not join in, it’s not appropriate for liturgical use.
If it requires training, it’s not appropriate for liturgical use.
“liturgy” is “the work of the people.”. It is not a place for professionalsto be plying their trade, or for anyone to have “her” solo.
When the people are siting and listening to someone perform, it is a failure, and I fervent ion is required.
If you’re doing something musically that the congregation cannot, KNOCK THAT OFF
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liturgyluver
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If you are talking about hymns, then they should certainly be chosen so they can be sung congregationally. But there are many beautiful anthems and Motet’s which are liturgical and designed to be sung by a SATB. I can’t imagine Candlemas without Eccard’s beautiful “When to the Temple Mary went”, All Saint’s Day without “O Quam Gloriosum” by Vittoria, or “Ave Maria” on a fest day for Our Lady.
One thing that I find frustrating about Catholic congregations is how bad they are - relatively - at congregational singing. We had “O come, O come Emmanuel” and “Come thou long expected Jesus” listed last Sunday, both popular and singable and hardly anyone participated.
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nickybr38
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I think this is because they feel if they can’t sing well they shouldn’t sing at all.If you are talking about hymns, then they should certainly be chosen so they can be sung congregationally. But there are many beautiful anthems and Motet’s which are liturgical and designed to be sung by a SATB. I can’t imagine Candlemas without Eccard’s beautiful “When to the Temple Mary went”, All Saint’s Day without “O Quam Gloriosum” by Vittoria, or “Ave Maria” on a fest day for Our Lady.
One thing that I find frustrating about Catholic congregations is how bad they are - relatively - at congregational singing. We had “O come, O come Emmanuel” and “Come thou long expected Jesus” listed last Sunday, both popular and singable and hardly anyone participated.
Our priest addressed this and ever since more voices have been raised in song but I have to admit I cringe a little when I’m stuck beside the guy who is tone deaf. Haha. Such a music snob I am… but I try to remind myself that it doesn’t matter. He’s raising his voice in praise and I wouldn’t want to give him any reason to feel uncomfortable and stop.
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liturgyluver
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Me too. I agree completely that joining in is better than embarrassed silence.I think this is because they feel if they can’t sing well they shouldn’t sing at all.
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SKWill
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EXACTLY!
My rule of thumb is if the piece has key changes or time signature changes, it’s probably not a congregational piece. Also musical works with lots of syncopation and triplets probably should have been composed in 6:8 time instead of 4:4.
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dochawk
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I have no idea what anything that you just wrote means . . And I doubt that most of The congration does, either.
I think that makes your point
Luther actually got something right.
When he wrote hymns, he set them to the tunes of then-current drinking songs. The result, as intended, was that everyone cu ld sing them!
hawk
I think that makes your point
Luther actually got something right.
When he wrote hymns, he set them to the tunes of then-current drinking songs. The result, as intended, was that everyone cu ld sing them!
hawk
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CatholicZ09
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I don’t understand what was hard to understand about it.I have no idea what anything that you just wrote means . . And I doubt that most of The congration does, either.
I think that makes your point
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FrancisB
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First of all, using popular secular songs in the mass has been strictly forbidden for centuries. That wasn’t a good idea. Everyone knew they were secular songs.I have no idea what anything that you just wrote means . . And I doubt that most of The congration does, either.
I think that makes your point
Luther actually got something right.
When he wrote hymns, he set them to the tunes of then-current drinking songs. The result, as intended, was that everyone cu ld sing them!
hawk
Second of all, the Latin church has a long tradition of choral music. The people do not have to sing to be participating.
Third of all, the Eastern churches have a different musical tradition, which is more congregational in approach, but if you honestly think that many of the kontakia or kathismata, or any number of other difficult Byzantine chants were meant to be sung congregationally and not by a cantor singing solo, you don’t have a good grasp of your own musical tradition. There were for many years men paid to travel around to the great churches in Constantinople just to sing the kontakion for the day at each temple’s Divine Liturgy, then heading to the next temple.
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Sarabande
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Or Victoria’s “O Magnum Mysterium”. It’s one of my favorite choral motets.
A whole thread can be made discussing this topic, which has been done here. I think there are many reasons for this. It does depend on the parish and congregation for particular masses, as well as the musicians leading the music. Catholics, in general, aren’t good congregational singers probably from a history of not really singing so much. So, it can be a hard “habit” to break.One thing that I find frustrating about Catholic congregations is how bad they are - relatively - at congregational singing. We had “O come, O come Emmanuel” and “Come thou long expected Jesus” listed last Sunday, both popular and singable and hardly anyone participated.
From speaking with people in real life, they can’t stand singing at mass if the cantor is bad and is blasting his/her voice into the mic so that only his/her voice is heard. Another complaint I hear is if the music is too difficult for them to sing, whether they feel it sits too high/too low or is difficult rhythmically. How often have we attended a mass, look at the actual music for hymns with “complicated” rhythms for an average, non-musician to sing and then realize that the instrumentalist and singer have actually simplified it (which is common to do at parishes where I’ve worked) or just don’t know how to play/sing it correctly (also common especially in places where the musicianship isn’t that good and they are just doing the best they can)?
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Kerry77
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This can go both ways. We have a paid organist and a paid singer who was trained for opera or something, and they are both highly-trained, real musicians. And they love to show off their talents. BUT, they pick songs and sing songs in a way that make them absolutely impossible for the congregation to sing along with.
Makes me yearn for the folk masses with the songs I could actually sing along with.
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Sarabande
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See, for me, although neither choice is ideal in regards to actual congregational singing, if given only those two choices, I would definitely go with the trained musicians over a folk mass any day and would rather participate and pray by listening to their God-given gifts than to have to sit through the other and try to find something nice about the folk-like music. Although, since I am a trained musician, I’d be right there in the congregation joining in with the trained musicians.
I think we have to be careful about using terms like “love to show off their talents” with most musicians or singers/instrumental players who give of their talents for mass. That kind of wording can come off as very negative, even if it is not meant to sound that way. (I’m not saying that I felt you were meaning for that to be negative, but I’ve seen many comments like that which were taken in the most negative connotation by others.) As a musician, it’s already hard enough dealing with people who assume things like that just because you are a trained musician. No need to add fuel to their fire.
Many musicians I know, whether in the church world or secular world, don’t “love to show off their talents”. They humbly realize it is a gift from God or whoever they believe in, which can be easily taken away from them. Many want to give of themselves as prayer and as a servant, and there are many, like me, who beat themselves up all day long if they screw up even one little note because they believe in giving their utmost best for God and to those who are listening.
This is for any kind of musician or those who can’t read music, but do sing or play an instrument by rote. Of course, there are always show-offs in any field, but I don’t think they are as much as in the majority as some would think. We really can’t know what any of those musicians are thinking unless they tell you themselves or you talk to them and realize that they are doing it more for their glory rather than for God’s.
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FrancisB
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Well-said. Musicians are not showing off any more than sculptors or painters or architects that are creating art for the church. Doing an exquisite job isn’t a matter of showing everyone how good you are; it is a matter of giving your best to God.See, for me, although neither choice is ideal in regards to actual congregational singing, if given only those two choices, I would definitely go with the trained musicians over a folk mass any day and would rather participate and pray by listening to their God-given gifts than to have to sit through the other and try to find something nice about the folk-like music. Although, since I am a trained musician, I’d be right there in the congregation joining in with the trained musicians.
I think we have to be careful about using terms like “love to show off their talents” with most musicians or singers/instrumental players who give of their talents for mass. That kind of wording can come off as very negative, even if it is not meant to sound that way. (I’m not saying that I felt you were meaning for that to be negative, but I’ve seen many comments like that which were taken in the most negative connotation by others.) As a musician, it’s already hard enough dealing with people who assume things like that just because you are a trained musician. No need to add fuel to their fire.
Many musicians I know, whether in the church world or secular world, don’t “love to show off their talents”. They humbly realize it is a gift from God or whoever they believe in, which can be easily taken away from them. Many want to give of themselves as prayer and as a servant, and there are many, like me, who beat themselves up all day long if they screw up even one little note because they believe in giving their utmost best for God and to those who are listening.
This is for any kind of musician or those who can’t read music, but do sing or play an instrument by rote. Of course, there are always show-offs in any field, but I don’t think they are as much as in the majority as some would think. We really can’t know what any of those musicians are thinking unless they tell you themselves or you talk to them and realize that they are doing it more for their glory rather than for God’s.
That said, I really love congregational singing when possible. The best music for that, though, is of course chant, since it was the original congregational singing of the church.
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