Problems Believing Our Lady of Fatima

[ethereality]

I’m reading Walsh’s Our Lady of Fatima to learn more about the revelations, seeking to affirm my faith in God and to learn His will. I have some problems believing (may God forgive me for voicing temptation and doubt, and I suppose these questions are largely from a Protestant perspective), which I hope you can help resolve:

• She asks the children to make themselves suffer, and leaves them feeling exhausted. How is this different from “Gabriel” appearing to Mohammed? Catholic Answers LIVE periodically has a guest who talks about it (I think jihadwatch.org is his website), how the presence would “press him terribly”, almost suffocating him, and command him to recite. We conclude it was a demonic presence, and yet something similar happened here, ‘recite’ in this case being prayers which leads me to a second problem:
• The prayers place an emphasis on us, our actions, and our intercession, as being definitive for the salvation of other poor sinners, and of Mary almost as a Second Jesus, e.g. that we must make reparations for the sins against the Immaculate Heart of Mary – well, what does that mean? We can explain it as, “Mary is so devoted to God, that really to sin against Mary’s heart is a poetic way of saying to sin against the will of God,” but what of this shifting of emphasis from Jesus to Mary? So, regarding the revelations, prayers, and devotions Mary wants us to have, the following questions arise:
• Is it right to place such importance on our actions, as if we are at least partially to blame for others going to hell? What about Jesus’ saving passion? Did Jesus not do enough – must we suffer also? Must we really make ourselves suffer, as Mary tells the children to do? (If she does not explicitly tell them to do it, they take it upon themselves and she does nothing to stop them.)
• Does it not cast God as fearful judge (that we must get poor sinners “out from under His wrath”) rather than loving Father?
• Does such a strong emphasis on hell not prevent that happiness in this life that God intends for us to have? (Cf. Jesus’ sayings, e.g. “I came that they might have life, and have it to the full” / “Do not worry” / “God knows about each sparrow and you are worth more than many sparrows” / “If you know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will God give to you.”)
• Is devotion to the Immaculate Heart of Mary not a form of idolatry? It seems like the veneration we are to give to Mary’s heart is indistinguishable from the adoration many give God (particularly Jesus) regarding form or intensity. How, then, are we to know that it is veneration and not in fact adoration, if it is indistinguishable from adoration? Are we really to conclude that “Protestants and many Catholics don’t worship God enough” (regarding intensity), or that the Sacrifice of the Mass is far superior (regarding form and intensity)? (… even though we may not comprehend its intensity or its form – and this argument does make sense to me, although I question why we should be so blind: “Being blind from all the light” as Frank Sheed says seems like a “cop out”: as he himself says in his Theology and Sanity, it would be cruel if God would reveal something and give us no way to understand it.)

I’m on page 85 of 228; I’ll finish it by 11 April. I think these questions are more than enough to start a thread with … I’ll search the forums later and post links to other relevant threads that if I find them.

 

[105lynne]

Wow. Lots of stuff here. I’m curious what others have to say……

 

[Student09]

First of all, you don’t have to believe in Fatima. It’s not dogma, we are not required to believe it. But the problem seems to be not that you don’t believe in Fatima, but that you are questioning a number of elements of Church teaching that happen to appear in Fatima.

Our actions, our sufferings, and our intercession do make a difference and God requires them. This is not some novelty invented at Fatima. In the Bible we are told to pray for each other. St. Paul says things like “Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and fill up on my part that which is lacking of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body’s sake, which is the church” (Col. 1:24). Penance has a long tradition in the Church and is still required. It’s currently Lent, and we are supposed to be doing penance.

God is a judge as well as a loving Father. The difference really depends on our orientation towards Him. Both the Old and New Testaments describe God’s tenderness for His people, and also His anger and His judgement. If we reject His love and offend Him, we will be judged. But if we love Him and are faithful, we have nothing to fear.

Finally, the difference between adoration and veneration has nothing to do with intensity of feeling. The difference is in whether one considers the object in question to be God. So any veneration given to the Immaculate Heart of Mary would only be idolatry if one thought that Mary was God. I don’t personally know any Catholic who thinks that.

As far as the poll, I won’t vote because I can’t put my belief in Fatima on a scale. I believe in Fatima because the Church says it’s worthy of belief, but if it turned out not to be true, I wouldn’t be upset about it, as it is not the foundation of my faith.

 

[po18guy]

I believe that you may be over-thinking this. Fatima is an approved private revelation, but it is not incumbent upon any non-involved Catholic to believe it. If you want to deepen your faith, I most strongly suggest that you spend as much time before our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament as possible. I have personally experienced miracles in prayer there. I shall never need further confirmation.

 

[Dorothy]

Perhaps all private revelation that is approved by the Church is meant for those who do not take their faith seriously, and may even take it for granted.

To honor the Immaculate Heart of Mary is to honor Our Lord Jesus Christ, because it is by His merits and choice (the Blessed Trinity, in fact!) that she has the privileges that she has, and that she was saved in advance. (Immaculate Conception.) And, she had to be a woman of faith. Everything was not revealed to her in advance, she had to continue her life in faith and trust in the Lord every moment.

When we meditate on her sorrows it is easier to become aware of what she went through voluntarily, trusting the Lord with all her heart. Our Lady is the perfect disciple of Christ, and it is good to imitate her virtues.

I remember a priest describing our Blessed Mother as a clean pane of glass (no smudges) that allows the Light of the Most Holy Trinity to shine through perfectly. Everything she has comes from the Lord, and Mary knows and understands that well! Hence, her perfect humility.

We are told in Sacred Scripture to pray for our enemies and to do good to those who hate us. As we grow closer to the Lord we desire others to do so also. He loves them, and we are to follow Christ and love our enemies with His grace. Much prayer, sacrifices, and the Sacraments enable us to do so. Like Our Lord we should want all men to be saved, and pray for them for the grace of repentance. What He did for us we can help do for others. Love for God enables us to do this, and then he can give us His deeper peace.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

It is an approved apparition which is a private revelation. Therefore Catholic are free to believe in it if they wish. They are also free to not believe in it.

There is no “everyone should believe”.

For myself. I do not believe but I also do not disbelieve. It really has no part of my spiritual life.

The messages to St Faustina (Divine Mercy) and Lourdes both do have a part in my spirituality and I fully believe in them both.

 

[LightBound]

I think the biggest problem with the Fatima apparition is what was “supposedly” said. There are all sorts of sites out there that have "Our Lady said “this and that” and warned about “such and such”. Each one of those sites uses what was “supposedly” said to support their own agenda. The Vatican’s website has what we need to know about Fatima. I would be more apt to believe in the Church’s official teaching and statement on this apparition than the dozen sites out there, each claiming the Blessed Virgin said “__________________”!

 

[Dorothy]

I think the biggest problem with the Fatima apparition is what was “supposedly” said. There are all sorts of sites out there that have "Our Lady said “this and that” and warned about “such and such”. Each one of those sites uses what was “supposedly” said to support their own agenda. The Vatican’s website has what we need to know about Fatima. I would be more apt to believe in the Church’s official teaching and statement on this apparition than the dozen sites out there, each claiming the Blessed Virgin said “__________________”!

I agree! There are spurious sites using Fatima to put forth all kinds of nonsense.

 

[ethereality]

I agree! There are spurious sites using Fatima to put forth all kinds of nonsense.

Well, my poll question was cut off (you’ll see it’s in mid-word there) … It was asking about Church approved content and good resources. Clearly, we should be scholars, critical thinkers, and rely on primary sources, treating secondary and tertiary sources accordingly, always asking about motive, etc.

So I’m hoping to avoid talking about erroneous documents in this thread and focus instead on the documents generally considered to be reliable – i.e. this book by Walsh, the account of de Marchi, and Lucia’s memoirs, if I understand correctly.

 

[LightBound]

Well, my poll question was cut off (you’ll see it’s in mid-word there) … It was asking about Church approved content and good resources. Clearly, we should be scholars, critical thinkers, and rely on primary sources, treating secondary and tertiary sources accordingly, always asking about motive, etc.

So I’m hoping to avoid talking about erroneous documents in this thread and focus instead on the documents generally considered to be reliable – i.e. this book by Walsh, the account of de Marchi, and Lucia’s memoirs, if I understand correctly.

I would venture to say what is considered completely reliable and the primary source is what is found here: vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000626_message-fatima_en.html

The above link is what I shall believe about Fatima. To get caught up in the other “sources”, whether considered “reliable” or not, is to put another source above Church teaching, if what is found on that site/source is not found in what the Vatican has issued.

Just my :twocents:

 

[thistle]

I’m reading Walsh’s Our Lady of Fatima to learn more about the revelations, seeking to affirm my faith in God and to learn His will. I have some problems believing (may God forgive me for voicing temptation and doubt, and I suppose these questions are largely from a Protestant perspective), which I hope you can help resolve:

• She asks the children to make themselves suffer, and leaves them feeling exhausted. How is this different from “Gabriel” appearing to Mohammed? Catholic Answers LIVE periodically has a guest who talks about it (I think jihadwatch.org is his website), how the presence would “press him terribly”, almost suffocating him, and command him to recite. We conclude it was a demonic presence, and yet something similar happened here, ‘recite’ in this case being prayers which leads me to a second problem:
• The prayers place an emphasis on us, our actions, and our intercession, as being definitive for the salvation of other poor sinners, and of Mary almost as a Second Jesus, e.g. that we must make reparations for the sins against the Immaculate Heart of Mary – well, what does that mean? We can explain it as, “Mary is so devoted to God, that really to sin against Mary’s heart is a poetic way of saying to sin against the will of God,” but what of this shifting of emphasis from Jesus to Mary? So, regarding the revelations, prayers, and devotions Mary wants us to have, the following questions arise:
• Is it right to place such importance on our actions, as if we are at least partially to blame for others going to hell? What about Jesus’ saving passion? Did Jesus not do enough – must we suffer also? Must we really make ourselves suffer, as Mary tells the children to do? (If she does not explicitly tell them to do it, they take it upon themselves and she does nothing to stop them.)
• Does it not cast God as fearful judge (that we must get poor sinners “out from under His wrath”) rather than loving Father?
• Does such a strong emphasis on hell not prevent that happiness in this life that God intends for us to have? (Cf. Jesus’ sayings, e.g. “I came that they might have life, and have it to the full” / “Do not worry” / “God knows about each sparrow and you are worth more than many sparrows” / “If you know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will God give to you.”)
• Is devotion to the Immaculate Heart of Mary not a form of idolatry? It seems like the veneration we are to give to Mary’s heart is indistinguishable from the adoration many give God (particularly Jesus) regarding form or intensity. How, then, are we to know that it is veneration and not in fact adoration, if it is indistinguishable from adoration? Are we really to conclude that “Protestants and many Catholics don’t worship God enough” (regarding intensity), or that the Sacrifice of the Mass is far superior (regarding form and intensity)? (… even though we may not comprehend its intensity or its form – and this argument does make sense to me, although I question why we should be so blind: “Being blind from all the light” as Frank Sheed says seems like a “cop out”: as he himself says in his Theology and Sanity, it would be cruel if God would reveal something and give us no way to understand it.)

I’m on page 85 of 228; I’ll finish it by 11 April. I think these questions are more than enough to start a thread with … I’ll search the forums later and post links to other relevant threads that if I find them.

I’m not sure what your issues really are.
Catholics are NOT bound to believe private revelations even if they have been deemed worthy of belief by the Church.
A Catholic can live their entire life not believing in any private revelations and it does not make them any less a faithful Catholic.
Everything necessary for our salvation is found through Scared Scripture, Sacred Tradition, and The Magesterium of the Church.

 

[ethereality]

I would venture to say what is considered completely reliable and the primary source is what is found here: vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000626_message-fatima_en.html

Thanks! I plan to read it.

thistle, your response doesn’t really make sense to me; there’s a certain disconnect between what I’ve written and what you wrote. I asked several questions and explained some problems I have understanding the events, and you say you’re not sure “what my issues really are”, as if I haven’t made myself clear, or as if I wasn’t speaking frankly … Well, if that’s the case, then there’s nothing more I can say; thank you for your time. Yes, we’re not obligated under pain of sin to believe it, but people say these events are historical fact, that these miracles did occur, and so on, and I want to study, learn about it, see if it’s true or not, and better understand the reality in which we live. If the history of Portugal in the early 20th century doesn’t interest you, if claims of supernatural events don’t concern you, that’s fine, but please don’t be so dismissive since it does interest many others.

 

[ethereality]

Another problem, from page 123 of Walsh’s account, Our Lady of Fatima says,

Pray, pray a great deal, and make sacrifices for sinners, for many souls go to hell because they have no one to sacrifice and pray for them.

Walsh includes the footnote (after a line about the Lady’s departure), “This is Lucia’s recollection of the conversation, Memoir IV, p. 40.”

What does this make of free will, and of Jesus’ actions and the Church’s mission? Again, it strikes me like, “If you don’t offer sacrifices, someone will go to hell because of you,” a certain oppressive doctrine that seems to stifle joy from life. It seems too much to bear. Really? People will go to hell if we don’t make sacrifices? Not just offer the suffering we experience, but make them, bringing suffering upon ourselves like wearing hair shirts like the children did (that is, tying a coarse rope around their waist)?

And what of the Divine Mercy from St. Faustina Kowalska? How can we understand free will and intercession? How is Our Lady’s statement supposed to be understood?

It strikes me as possibly demonic because the implication seems to be: God’s not in control. You are. If you make sacrifices and pray for them, they’ll go to heaven. If you don’t, they’ll go to hell. This is the implication of the statement: they go to hell because no one is making sacrifices and praying for them – that they go to hell because of our lack of action, not because of their own actions. Even if it’s a matter of both/and, not either/or, how is it right to say, “This person is a criminal, therefore you should suffer”?

Am I misunderstanding something? What am I missing? What are your thoughts?

 

[AndyT_81]

ethereality,

Here are a few thoughts of mine, for what they are worth.

First, the damnation of a soul can only ever be the result of that soul’s choices. However, in some mysterious way God wants us to be involved in each other’s salvation - from tradition and scripture that seems very clear. So how do we marry these two notions together? My understanding is that when we unite our sufferings with Christ’s on the cross, they take on a redemptive value of their own which can be “applied” to sinners in for the attainment of grace - however, ultimately, it is still always up to the individual whether they respond to that grace. So your comment “If you don’t offer sacrifices, someone will go to hell because of you” doesn’t seem right to me, because it is always the fault of the person who refuses to co-operate with God’s saving love that is responsible for their damnation. It’s not as if we are all damned to hell and will only be saved if someone (apart from Jesus) suffers for us.

Rather I would instead say something like “there are many poor souls, your brothers and sisters, who are in deep darkness, won’t you make some sacrifices for them?”. I don’t see that as oppressive, rather I see it as liberating - that God has offered us the privilege and the power to help our brothers and sisters in Christ through our sufferings, hardships and voluntary mortifications.

That doesn’t mean that God is not in control, of course He is. What that means is that God is giving us the opportunity to co-operate with Him, in some small way, in his redemptive work. It is an invitation for us to love our brothers and sisters in the same selfless way that God does. In the end however, all good comes from God - so He is the ultimate author of our redemption.

Hope that helps

 

[ethereality]

My understanding is that when we unite our sufferings with Christ’s on the cross, they take on a redemptive value of their own which can be “applied” to sinners in for the attainment of grace - however, ultimately, it is still always up to the individual whether they respond to that grace.

Well, you’ve just recast the problem in a different light, rephrased the question: Comparing the idea “people are free to refuse to respond to grace” and reading Mary’s words literally (“because no one is making sacrifices for them”), the implication is that unless we make sacrifices, God will not give them the graces they need to respond to for salvation. It depicts God as like a callous fisherman, “Hey, I put the hook out there, but you didn’t put any bait on it. Not my problem.” (Assuming fish had the freedom to respond to or refuse bait.)

Rather I would instead say something like “there are many poor souls, your brothers and sisters, who are in deep darkness, won’t you make some sacrifices for them?”. I don’t see that as oppressive, rather I see it as liberating - that God has offered us the privilege and the power to help our brothers and sisters in Christ through our sufferings, hardships and voluntary mortifications.

But that’s not the tone of the message. You’ve argued that Mary said something other than what Lucia said she said. Literally, Mary is assigning blame to us, “because you’re not doing these things”, not simply asking us to do something nice-but-optional.

[It] doesn’t mean that God is not in control, of course He is. What that means is that God is giving us the opportunity to co-operate with Him, in some small way, in his redemptive work.

“In some small way”?! Mary’s implication is that many poor sinners will go to hell if we don’t! That is not small. Reading Walsh’s account, Jacinta makes this very clear, becoming mortified (literally) in response to people cursing, and even without external stimulus by simply reflecting on Mary’s message about all the poor sinners who will be going to hell. And what does that say about God, who makes others’ eternal beatification or damnation dependent on the actions of other frail, broken creatures? It suggests a certain indifference, a lack of love.

Thus I have trouble believing Mary actually said these things, but the Church appears to believe it, so there must be another explanation. Perhaps what you said is true – and Mary “didn’t really mean it” as Lucia’s words literally come across; perhaps reading Lucia’s memoirs rather than Walsh’s account will put things in a better context.

It seems like this thread should be cross-linked in the Apologetics board; it seems equally about spirituality and apologetics.

 

[HailStarofSea]

I’m reading Walsh’s Our Lady of Fatima to learn more about the revelations, seeking to affirm my faith in God and to learn His will. I have some problems believing (may God forgive me for voicing temptation and doubt, and I suppose these questions are largely from a Protestant perspective), which I hope you can help resolve:

• She asks the children to make themselves suffer, and leaves them feeling exhausted. How is this different from “Gabriel” appearing to Mohammed? Catholic Answers LIVE periodically has a guest who talks about it (I think jihadwatch.org is his website), how the presence would “press him terribly”, almost suffocating him, and command him to recite. We conclude it was a demonic presence, and yet something similar happened here, ‘recite’ in this case being prayers which leads me to a second problem:

Mary and the demons are at war. This site will give you a greater sense of why it seems both Mary and the demons seem to want to make us suffer.

“The Blessed Virgin has selected a little army of noble souls who are prepared to suffer everything and to offer themselves freely to God as a holocaust in atonement for souls. She has selected them to fight directly against the demons. They will break the might of Lucifer’s legions upon earth and will deprive him of at least a part of the victims he already counts as his own.

"These selected souls will bear up courageously under the attacks of the demons. They will suffer possession in order to free the souls of fellowmen from the yoke of the evil one. They take the place of the guilty to free them from the power of the demon who has darkened their understanding and who is trying to harden their misguided will. It is a worldwide battle between the ferocity of the demon and the victim souls’ love for the cross.

"The victim souls endure bodily sufferings as well as attacks directed against the sensitive powers of the soul. They will, however, conquer with their spiritual aids. Their lower nature will, so to say, be crushed by demoniacal tortures, but the higher spiritual nature will triumph over the infernal spirits through their generous submission to suffering. Their spiritual powers will increase in proportion to the amount of suffering they, endure, for in every loving suffering they will receive an increase of love.

"The power of the demons will gradually decrease, at least externally. All their energy will be exhausted in their onslaughts against these victim souls. Should the victim soul persevere in her sacrifice, then her influence will increase, and that of the demon will diminish gradually. Whence it follows that the victim soul will be victorious and the enemy will be completely crushed. The battle between such a victim soul and the demon is a real duel to the death. They are as two gladiators forced to fight until one remains a victim upon the battlefield. The demon is full of hatred towards all good.

…

"The demons maintain that the sins of men give them power over men. They say that God permits demons to keep what they have won through the misdirected will of man, and only the free will of man can take from them what the free will of man has given them. Through the wilful suffering of victim souls the demons are deprived of that which men have given them through sin.

mysticsofthechurch.com/2010/09/mary-crushes-serpent-virgin-marys-role.html

Have you ever seen “The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe” where Edmond, out of his own free will, goes over to the side of evil and the protagonists have to suffer to save him?

 

[MariaGoretti88]

I voted 8

 

[HailStarofSea]

*]Does it not cast God as fearful judge (that we must get poor sinners “out from under His wrath”) rather than loving Father?

God’s justice is tied to his love. Imagine that you are a Father and one of your sons kills the rest of the family. In your love, could you allow him to go without punishment even if he never repented and would continue killing others until stopped? God always tells us to forgive, but he does not say that we forgive without reason. “Vengeance is mine,” says the Lord, “I will repay.” Every sin either harms God, ourself, or our neighbor.

*]Does such a strong emphasis on hell not prevent that happiness in this life that God intends for us to have? (Cf. Jesus’ sayings, e.g. “I came that they might have life, and have it to the full” / “Do not worry” / “God knows about each sparrow and you are worth more than many sparrows” / “If you know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will God give to you.”)

Yes, and no. Obviously, not everyone in this life has happiness. Many are born into poverty and other unmerited sufferings that are completely preventable. Would a theology that only focused on this mortal life value them as equal people?

When Jesus talks about life, he means eternal life. No one goes to Hell without choosing it. In Fatima, it says that many of those who go are the ones who refused to believe. So warning us about Hell and Heaven gives hope to those who lives aren’t happy for no fault of their own or even because of an unrepairable fault. It causes conversion of sinners. Slavery in the British empire ended because a slave trader was afraid of going to Hell (John Newton) when he got sick at sea.

Consistency with Bible.**
John 12:25. “Whoever loves his life* loses it, and whoever hates his life in this world will preserve it for eternal life.” ** Protestantism is twisted because it ignores a lot of these difficult verses. It was started in many regards because people didn’t want to follow holy laws, i.e. the Church of England started for the purpose of divorce with church approval.

Matthew 7:14 “But it is a narrow gate and a hard road that leads to life, and only a few find it.”

Anyways, happiness comes more from living a life of virtue and from true accomplishment than it does from pursuing selfish desires. Following Jesus and Mary and having hope in a great reward in Heaven (and maybe on Earth) will make you happier than sin because you will feel good about yourself, like you are a blessing to society. Its better than placing all your eggs on life on Earth, it not panning out, and turning to sin to keep up with one’s peers.

*]Is devotion to the Immaculate Heart of Mary not a form of idolatry? It seems like the veneration we are to give to Mary’s heart is indistinguishable from the adoration many give God (particularly Jesus) regarding form or intensity. How, then, are we to know that it is veneration and not in fact adoration, if it is indistinguishable from adoration? Are we really to conclude that “Protestants and many Catholics don’t worship God enough” (regarding intensity), or that the Sacrifice of the Mass is far superior (regarding form and intensity)? (… even though we may not comprehend its intensity or its form – and this argument does make sense to me, although I question why we should be so blind: “Being blind from all the light” as Frank Sheed says seems like a “cop out”: as he himself says in his Theology and Sanity, it would be cruel if God would reveal something and give us no way to understand it.)

Read True Devotion to Mary by St. Louis de Montfort (its free online). We honor Jesus most by honoring his Mother, both because she always honors him and she is his Mother. In addition, because Jesus is perfect - that perfect Judge - and she dresses up the little that we give, like as if she put our rotten apple on a golden plate so that it looks better for Jesus.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

I’m reading Walsh’s Our Lady of Fatima to learn more about the revelations, seeking to affirm my faith in God and to learn His will. I have some problems believing (may God forgive me for voicing temptation and doubt, and I suppose these questions are largely from a Protestant perspective), which I hope you can help resolve:

• She asks the children to make themselves suffer, and leaves them feeling exhausted. How is this different from “Gabriel” appearing to Mohammed? Catholic Answers LIVE periodically has a guest who talks about it (I think jihadwatch.org is his website), how the presence would “press him terribly”, almost suffocating him, and command him to recite. We conclude it was a demonic presence, and yet something similar happened here, ‘recite’ in this case being prayers which leads me to a second problem:
• The prayers place an emphasis on us, our actions, and our intercession, as being definitive for the salvation of other poor sinners, and of Mary almost as a Second Jesus, e.g. that we must make reparations for the sins against the Immaculate Heart of Mary – well, what does that mean? We can explain it as, “Mary is so devoted to God, that really to sin against Mary’s heart is a poetic way of saying to sin against the will of God,” but what of this shifting of emphasis from Jesus to Mary? So, regarding the revelations, prayers, and devotions Mary wants us to have, the following questions arise:
• Is it right to place such importance on our actions, as if we are at least partially to blame for others going to hell? What about Jesus’ saving passion? Did Jesus not do enough – must we suffer also? Must we really make ourselves suffer, as Mary tells the children to do? (If she does not explicitly tell them to do it, they take it upon themselves and she does nothing to stop them.)
• Does it not cast God as fearful judge (that we must get poor sinners “out from under His wrath”) rather than loving Father?
• Does such a strong emphasis on hell not prevent that happiness in this life that God intends for us to have? (Cf. Jesus’ sayings, e.g. “I came that they might have life, and have it to the full” / “Do not worry” / “God knows about each sparrow and you are worth more than many sparrows” / “If you know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will God give to you.”)
• Is devotion to the Immaculate Heart of Mary not a form of idolatry? It seems like the veneration we are to give to Mary’s heart is indistinguishable from the adoration many give God (particularly Jesus) regarding form or intensity. How, then, are we to know that it is veneration and not in fact adoration, if it is indistinguishable from adoration? Are we really to conclude that “Protestants and many Catholics don’t worship God enough” (regarding intensity), or that the Sacrifice of the Mass is far superior (regarding form and intensity)? (… even though we may not comprehend its intensity or its form – and this argument does make sense to me, although I question why we should be so blind: “Being blind from all the light” as Frank Sheed says seems like a “cop out”: as he himself says in his Theology and Sanity, it would be cruel if God would reveal something and give us no way to understand it.)

I’m on page 85 of 228; I’ll finish it by 11 April. I think these questions are more than enough to start a thread with … I’ll search the forums later and post links to other relevant threads that if I find them.

As I am sure you are aware, the Church does not require belief in any private revelations.

So my question to you is why this post? I am curious?

1. • Is it that you are having trouble believing in Fatima but want to believe so you want to work out the issues you have with it?
   • Or is it that you feel you have to believe in Fatima and you are having a hard time doing so?
   • Or is it that you do not believe in Fatima and you wish to sway others to your side?
   If it is #1, I can understand that. If #2 then forget it as you do not have to believe. If #3, I think you should let others believe if they wish as the Church has ruled that it is “worthy of belief”.
   
   I can not really help you out on this one because I neither believe in it nor do I disbelieve in it.

 

[beehumble]

“Pray, pray a great deal, and make sacrifices for sinners, for many souls go to hell because they have no one to sacrifice and pray for them.”

This means we can help souls that are on the path to hell to convert. If we pray for them and make sacrifices for them (like fasting, for example), by showing such love for those ‘unbelievers’ God takes steps to help them, even though they of their own account don’t deserve it since they, of their own free will, have spit into the face of God and turned their backs to Him. But if we do things for them, God will help them to come into the ‘light’.

So of their own free will they are on the path to hell. But we can help them turn around and go on a new path.

Here is a great true story of the power of God to inspire us to do the right thing:

(Saint) Sister Faustina, a mystic of the 1930s, was having visions and discussions with Jesus, and when this got out to her fellow nuns they laughed and some thought these were all in her head - that she was going bonkers. She worked in a house for wayward girls (poor girls who had fallen into prostitution and that sort of thing), teaching them basic reading and writing and arithmetic and other skills. One morning in the class she was having a hard time with a very difficult girl who refused to obey the sisters and kept misbehaving in the class. At that moment Jesus appeared to Sister Faustina (the others of course could not see) and as He started talking to her she said to Him how the sisters said He was not really appearing to her, that it was all in her head, and she said, “If you are really here, then make that girl go to confession.” Instantly, the girl raised her hand and blurted out, “I want to go to confession.” “Now,” the sisters asked, incredulous, their mouths agape. And she replied, “Yes, right now.” Sister now Saint Faustina never doubted in the authenticity of her visions of Jesus again, no matter what others said. And the girl went to a much needed confession.

If we pray and sacrifice for sinners, God will help them, inspire them, to get off the path to hell that they have chosen. We are all in this together - we are all one family. We are our brother’s keeper.

God bless you.