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gearhead
Guest
Okay… so does Hell not exist, did someone else create it, or was it there all along?
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srferdave
Guest
Hell is the absence of God.
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AntiTheist
Guest
…and that’s a thought crime. Denying something is a thought.
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srferdave
Guest
Sort of…
But you are also saying that you don’t want to be with God. So that matter of not believing in him with full consent and full knowledge is in essence saying that you don’t want to be with Him. God isn’t going to make you spend the rest of eternity with him if you don’t want to.
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AntiTheist
Guest
Well that’s a relief.
In all seriousness, the argument you’re trying to pull here (“hell is just the absence of god!”) doesn’t work because – presumably – hell is, according to everything I know of Christian teachings, a place (or state?) of eternal spiritual agony.
Whatever it is, it’s obviously supposed to be more unpleasant than anything we can conceive of. Unless you plan to tell me that hell isn’t unpleasant, in which case, I truly have heard everything.
My entire point is that this god character, according to the story, set things up this way. It didn’t have to be this way, but he chose to set up a system whereby those people who commit a thought crime spend eternity in a state of spiritual agony.
I find values like that reprehensible, and I’m quite glad I won’t be spending eternity with such a jerk.
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srferdave
Guest
Never said that hell won’t be unpleasant. God is good, God is love. Of course, the absence of good leaves you with bad and the absence of love leaves you with hate.
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yankee_doodle
Guest
I guess this is an intellectual exercise in futility since religion is not true, but if it were being tossed in hell for eternity is hardly comparable to being kicked out of the house.
I understand this is what Christianity has whittled it down to. At one point in history your church used graphic art of people burning in eternal flames to scare the poor and stupid out of their earnings. Now, since people are more knowledgeable and less predisposed to psychological extortion, the newest spin is drawing these lite analogies to our real lives and practical experiences (like parent child relationships).
Sometimes the bible will use the analogy of unconditional parental love (i.e. the prodigal son), while in other instances it enumerates a limit to that love (i.e. the insurmountable barrier between heaven and hell).
At the end of the day though, what’s most pertinent from my perspective, is that there’s not even a fraction of a 1% chance I would ever think religion was anything more than ancient mythology … no more compelling or true than stories of Zeus or Odin.
what I think is far worse than that. The god invented by the myth makers of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam is a lunatic. It’s bizarre prophecies and dogmatic musings are useful only insofar as it instills basic morals in people who really need an extrinsic force to prevent them from barbarism (and unfortunately our world is filled with people like that). Even in that respect, though, it often fails (because the zealotry it inspires can be very dangerous).
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AntiTheist
Guest
I have to say…this is a great post.
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josie_L
Guest
But have you done so out of ignorance (well technically you wouldn’t know this), that you should deny God (our knowledge is limited and depending on the person in question can be biased)?
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AntiTheist
Guest
Huh? I don’t know what you’re asking here.
My point is that the very concept of punishing someone for a thought (or setting up a system whereby holding certain beliefs results in eternal spiritual agony) is unjust. And not just unjust, but monstrously so.
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josie_L
Guest
He’s right in stating that Hell is the absence of God, and it is for this reason that it’s a spiritual agony (God is all that is Good) to be in Hell. And for the last time antitheist people don’t spend an eternity in spiritual agony for a thought crime, I mean seriously were you a Christian before you became an atheist or do you like to just make up your own theology as you go?
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josie_L
Guest
Respectfully, antitheist calling the God we love a jerk is immature and insensitive. If talking about God bugs you so much then leave CAF otherwise show some respect for the believers who post here.
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josie_L
Guest
For all you people who believe God is a lunatic/jerk, STOP WASTING YOUR TIME (AND OURS) TAlKING ABOUT HIM, and get another hobby.
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josie_L
Guest
I mean to say that people can deny or reject things out of ignorance (even if they be true), because they don’t have full knowledge or the knowledge which they do possess is faulty and biased, like for example, believing that God puts you in Hell for a “thought” crime (which has been reiterated to you several times now as being false).
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srferdave
Guest
What is more frustrating than anything is that most of these arguments from these atheist are false arguments about the Church. I find that we (Catholics) are mostly just correcting false claims about the Church.
Let me know when you find an argument against the Church that has any validity.
Let me know when you find an argument against the Church that has any validity.
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yankee_doodle
Guest
what’s the matter … you don’t you think he can take care of himself?
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yankee_doodle
Guest
how the heck do you know … aren’t you guys really just inventing this stuff as you go along?
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humble_maid
Guest
Anti Theist, I am concerned with your preconceived ideas of the True God. Where did you get these ideas? True believers know who they worship and it is not the god you know. The problem here is that atheism, materialism and nihilists and so on do not want to worship anything but their own intellect. Anyway enough about that. I will explain the Hell issue with a little more detail.
Hell is a place in which those who willingly refuse God of their own free will, and/or commit grave sins without regret are assigned; this is what we mean when we say that the person chooses to go to hell. Now technically no one wants to go to hell for those who believe but for those who don’t believe the matter is irrelevant; however this is still considered a refusal of God or His existence. Because of their denial they willingly forfeit the gift of ‘admission to paradise’; the only other place left is Hell. Purgatory is another issue.
God did not create Hell with the intent to see humanity fail and throw them away to eternal torture; the existence of Hell occurred at some point because evil and sin entered the picture. Got it so far? Once evil(rebellion) was committed the perpetrators(devil and his demons) had to be dealt with; they had no precedence in the realm of God(Heaven).
Hell is their realm and because they are divine beings it is eternal. Remember that initially humans were immortal therefore they to will have a judgement that will last forever.
Sin controlled the gates of death. This is why Jesus had to die. Why else would God agree to let His only Beloved Son be the ransom for our sins so as to save all mankind? His blood was demanded in order to pay the debt of sin. Take the scenario of a kidnapped child; the only way to get him back would be if you paid out the ransom money. Now if the parent didn’t have that kind of money how would he get his kid back? Unless someone with that kind of money who willingly would pay the amount stepped in. Then that person who paid the ransom would only have one request in return….that you acknowledge Him (Our Lord and God).
That is all He asks of us; to acknowledge Him and follow the Word of the God.
In reality it is not difficult at all to Love and Know God; to accept Him and understand His love for us? It is something He freely gives in which you make the ultimate decision. It is you who seals your fate; God executes the judgement accordingly.
Really I don’t care for the opinions of the atheists. I know what hell is like because it also exists on earth. If it were not for God’s Love which is brighter and better than anything else known to man life would be bleek…no certainty of hope just death.
Hell is a place in which those who willingly refuse God of their own free will, and/or commit grave sins without regret are assigned; this is what we mean when we say that the person chooses to go to hell. Now technically no one wants to go to hell for those who believe but for those who don’t believe the matter is irrelevant; however this is still considered a refusal of God or His existence. Because of their denial they willingly forfeit the gift of ‘admission to paradise’; the only other place left is Hell. Purgatory is another issue.
God did not create Hell with the intent to see humanity fail and throw them away to eternal torture; the existence of Hell occurred at some point because evil and sin entered the picture. Got it so far? Once evil(rebellion) was committed the perpetrators(devil and his demons) had to be dealt with; they had no precedence in the realm of God(Heaven).
Hell is their realm and because they are divine beings it is eternal. Remember that initially humans were immortal therefore they to will have a judgement that will last forever.
Sin controlled the gates of death. This is why Jesus had to die. Why else would God agree to let His only Beloved Son be the ransom for our sins so as to save all mankind? His blood was demanded in order to pay the debt of sin. Take the scenario of a kidnapped child; the only way to get him back would be if you paid out the ransom money. Now if the parent didn’t have that kind of money how would he get his kid back? Unless someone with that kind of money who willingly would pay the amount stepped in. Then that person who paid the ransom would only have one request in return….that you acknowledge Him (Our Lord and God).
That is all He asks of us; to acknowledge Him and follow the Word of the God.
In reality it is not difficult at all to Love and Know God; to accept Him and understand His love for us? It is something He freely gives in which you make the ultimate decision. It is you who seals your fate; God executes the judgement accordingly.
Really I don’t care for the opinions of the atheists. I know what hell is like because it also exists on earth. If it were not for God’s Love which is brighter and better than anything else known to man life would be bleek…no certainty of hope just death.
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josie_L
Guest
Through sacred Tradition, Scripture, and the catechism of the Catholic Church that’s how.how the heck do you know … aren’t you guys really just inventing this stuff as you go along?
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josie_L
Guest
You have shown a great lack of respect for the people you debate, if you think we’re stupid then just say so and leave CAF.how the heck do you know … aren’t you guys really just inventing this stuff as you go along?
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