Problems with Joseph Smith's First Vision

[truthseeker32]

Coming out of a strong Protestant tradition, I joined the LDS church in 1973, and “multiple accounts” was an “issue” for me. As I investigated, I discovered that Joseph’s “different” accounts of the first vision (primarily from 1832-1838) came about mainly because he was addressing various audiences; different purposes.

This makes Joseph Smith Jr. sound like a salesman who tweaks his story in order to get different people to buy it.

MUCH written about this within LDS circles. There is no evidence that the early leaders of the LDS Church did not understand that the Joseph saw two Divine Personages during his inaugural theophany.

What do you mean by “early church”? Mormons didn’t start teaching about the first vision until 1842, 22 years after it happened.

At the end of the day, it was the full body of revelations that Joseph received, and, more importantly, the personal revelation that I received about the nature and disposition of God, that convinced me that Joseph was an honest, honorable man with a simple, yet profound, message: God truly lives and He still speaks to His chosen servants today.

If all one bases their faith on is a feeling how can they hold their own truth above others who claim to have arrived at their beliefs by spiritual witness? In the end I suppose this can be the only reason a person would believe, since the history speaks against Joseph.

 

[zaffiroborant]

God truly lives and He still speaks to His chosen servants today.

Cheers,
~Nick

Just want to point out that all Christians believe this.

 

[lax16]

Coming out of a strong Protestant tradition, I joined the LDS church in 1973, and “multiple accounts” was an “issue” for me. As I investigated, I discovered that Joseph’s “different” accounts of the first vision (primarily from 1832-1838) came about mainly because he was addressing various audiences; different purposes.

What different groups was he talking to and when was he addressing them?

MUCH written about this within LDS circles. There is no evidence that the early leaders of the LDS Church did not understand that the Joseph saw two Divine Personages during his inaugural theophany. At the end of the day, it was the full body of revelations that Joseph received, and, more importantly, the personal revelation that I received about the nature and disposition of God, that convinced me that Joseph was an honest, honorable man with a simple, yet profound, message: God truly lives and He still speaks to His chosen servants today.

Honest? Are you aware that Joseph Smith was convicted of fraud and used seer stones to hunt for treasure?
Honorable? Are you aware that Joseph Smith had relationships with underage girls and with other men’s wives?
I have never heard anyone, not even Mormons, claim that JS was an honest and honorable man.

 

[Orfeo]

Drove through Independence today…Temple Lot still empty…

The Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints has had a temple there since 1994. I’m shocked that you didn’t see it–it’s really hard to miss.

Regarding multiple first visions: I don’t see it as the sort of damning evidence against Joseph Smith’s prophetic calling that you all seem to think it is. Joseph had a profound experience with God when he was a young boy, and as circumstances changed, he emphasized different details, just as the various authors of the gospels have different stories because they had different original goals (evangelizing Jews or Gentiles, for instance.)

 

[xixxvmcm85]

The Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints has had a temple there since 1994. I’m shocked that you didn’t see it–it’s really hard to miss.

He’s talking about THE Temple Lot, which is owned by Church of Christ Temple Lot, and currently has no temple built on it.

Regarding multiple first visions: I don’t see it as the sort of damning evidence against Joseph Smith’s prophetic calling that you all seem to think it is. Joseph had a profound experience with God when he was a young boy, and as circumstances changed, he emphasized different details, just as the various authors of the gospels have different stories because they had different original goals (evangelizing Jews or Gentiles, for instance.)

“Emphasizing certain details” over others, I can get, but these details aren’t minutiae when they are mutually exclusive to one another.

 

[Orfeo]

He’s talking about THE Temple Lot, which is owned by Church of Christ Temple Lot, and currently has no temple built on it.

It’s all the same. The RLDS Temple is on the tract of land (the “Greater Temple Lot”) that was purchased for the construction of 24 separate temples. So there is in fact a temple on the Temple Lot, and the Church of Christ Temple Lot’s claim to possessing the land for “THE” New Jersusalem Temple is slightly missing the point.

“Emphasizing certain details” over others, I can get, but these details aren’t minutiae when they are mutually exclusive to one another.

There are parts of the different gospels that are mutually exclusive and contradictory.

 

[xixxvmcm85]

It’s all the same. The RLDS Temple is on the tract of land (the “Greater Temple Lot”) that was purchased for the construction of 24 separate temples. So there is in fact a temple on the Temple Lot, and the Church of Christ Temple Lot’s claim to possessing the land for “THE” New Jersusalem Temple is slightly missing the point.

Hmmm. I was under the impression that The Saints had only purchased what the Church of Christ Temple Lot own, and that it was in Joseph Smith’s revelation that a larger lot for 24 temples would be acquired by the Saints (indeed, even the land all the way to the state border).

There are parts of the different gospels that are mutually exclusive and contradictory.

Which is something I would expect concerning multiple accounts from different individuals written at different times many decades after the original events occurred; the events themselves spanning multiple years. I wouldn’t however expect this from a sole individual who is recounting an event that occurred on a single day.

 

[batman1973]

The Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints has had a temple there since 1994. I’m shocked that you didn’t see it–it’s really hard to miss.

Oh, I saw that mess. I was talking about the original Temple.

 

[lynnettejane]

However much you try to dress it up, the first vision stories are a let down for the church for reasons already stated, I am sure that if JS had had that encounter with God it would have been indellbly etched in his mind and there would never have been any difficulty recalling the detail, and certainly no need or desire even to tweak it according to audience

 

[TexanKnight]

Coming out of a strong Protestant tradition, I joined the LDS church in 1973, and “multiple accounts” was an “issue” for me. As I investigated, I discovered that Joseph’s “different” accounts of the first vision (primarily from 1832-1838) came about mainly because he was addressing various audiences; different purposes.

ah. So truth changes depending on to whom you are talking? Interesting concept.

MUCH written about this within LDS circles. There is no evidence that the early leaders of the LDS Church did not understand that the Joseph saw two Divine Personages during his inaugural theophany. At the end of the day, it was the full body of revelations that Joseph received, and, more importantly, the personal revelation that I received about the nature and disposition of God, that convinced me that Joseph was an honest, honorable man with a simple, yet profound, message: God truly lives and He still speaks to His chosen servants today.

hmmm…so a vision that in one version has 1 person talking to Joseph, in another 2 people, in another angels, in another one angel, in another angels and one person, etc. and was not discussed for 12 years in writing is that powerful for you?

Cheers,
~Nick

 

[Nickerman]

Hi Texan,

It was precisely how deeply and clearly Joseph understood and proclaimed “who” God is that he was able to perform his divinely-called role as an authorized prophet in this age – a simple statement of fact for which he was roundly criticized by the ruling religious elite of his day from the beginning until the end of his life. It’s interesting to read his own account.

Cheers,
~Nick

 

[TexanKnight]

Hi Texan,

It was precisely how deeply and clearly Joseph understood and proclaimed “who” God is that he was able to perform his divinely-called role as an authorized prophet in this age – a simple statement of fact for which he was roundly criticized by the ruling religious elite of his day from the beginning until the end of his life. It’s interesting to read his own account.

Cheers,
~Nick

I would love to read his account…I just do not know which of the versions to read. Apparently, he changes his story depending on to whom he speaks.

by the way, that is the mark of a dishonest man.

 

[kimg901]

Hi Texan,

It was precisely how deeply and clearly Joseph understood and proclaimed “who” God is that he was able to perform his divinely-called role as an authorized prophet in this age – a simple statement of fact for which he was roundly criticized by the ruling religious elite of his day from the beginning until the end of his life. It’s interesting to read his own account.

Cheers,
~Nick

Wow. We still dont really know who God is because we are human. Our souls trapped in flesh but yet joe smith understands God? The One and True Living God or his made up god(s)? Read his name again and you get Josephs Myth

P.S, I think that most of these new posters are the same person

 

[truthseeker32]

Hi Texan,

It was precisely how deeply and clearly Joseph understood and proclaimed “who” God is that he was able to perform his divinely-called role as an authorized prophet in this age – a simple statement of fact for which he was roundly criticized by the ruling religious elite of his day from the beginning until the end of his life. It’s interesting to read his own account.

Cheers,
~Nick

Which version of “who God is” are we talking about. Joseph Smith Jr. changed his perspective on this several times.

Joseph Smith’s Sabellianism (Father and Christ same person): mormonthink.com/firstvisionweb.htm#sabellianism

Evolution of the nature of God in Mormonism: mormonthink.com/firstvisionweb.htm#nature

Was Joseph really the first person to propose that God the Father and Jesus were separate beings?: mormonthink.com/firstvisionweb.htm#wasjosephreally

 

[TexanKnight]

Which version of “who God is” are we talking about. Joseph Smith Jr. changed his perspective on this several times.

Joseph Smith’s Sabellianism (Father and Christ same person): mormonthink.com/firstvisionweb.htm#sabellianism

Evolution of the nature of God in Mormonism: mormonthink.com/firstvisionweb.htm#nature

Was Joseph really the first person to propose that God the Father and Jesus were separate beings?: mormonthink.com/firstvisionweb.htm#wasjosephreally

If you take an honest look at the evolution of the Joseph Smith story, you see a guy who was always looking for a way to make a quick buck…honest or not. Whether it was treasure seeking or the like, he was willing to say anything to make money.

He heard about other people claiming to have God visit them. He heard about stories of buried gold. So, he decided to have the same thing happen to him. The story of how the visitation occurred changed over time as the story took on a life Joe never expected. As the tale grew, it became impossible to keep his stories straight.

More problematic, his story about how he got the gold plates and later how he translated them evolved and changed. It was years before a final version could be concocted.

Then you have the alleged witnesses to the Gold plates. Over the years, Joe questioned the honesty of each of them when they went against him. So, we have people Joseph said you cannot trust or believe witnessing something no one else ever saw. Mormons are forced to rely the credibility of witnesses Joe has stated you cannot trust. So, as in most LDS situations, you cannot trust the witnesses EXCEPT in those areas you want to trust them. This is the same approach they have prophets: you can believe and trust everything they say, except those things we decide we do not like or that prove to be false, or that make them sound crazy (like Adam/God).

The best thing that ever happened to Joe was being killed. He NEVER had to be cross examined in court, because he used illicit means to get out of jails, or he cowardly ran from jurisdictions where he was wanted. He died never facing up to all the crimes he committed and people he swindled and men he offended by trying to be with their wives.

I would have loved the chance to cross examine him in court. He woulda been easy.

 

[kimg901]

What I find interesting is that if these golden plates where in fact real and were God’s Words, why wouldnt God have left them on earth for all to see? Wouldnt you think that God would have made it that those plates couldnt/wouldnt be destroyed or harmed from human hands? Its God, He can do anything.

 

[CarolNoel]

Thanks for putting the list together TexanKnight. Helped make it more clear for me Would like to see you cross exam JS too!

 

[twopekinguys]

Hi Texan,

It was precisely how deeply and clearly Joseph understood and proclaimed “who” God is that he was able to perform his divinely-called role as an authorized prophet in this age – a simple statement of fact for which he was roundly criticized by the ruling religious elite of his day from the beginning until the end of his life. It’s interesting to read his own account.

Cheers,
~Nick

Do you realize he couldn’t even pin down how many “personages” were there. Let alone, who they were.

 

[Nickerman]

Of course he did…

The revealed truths that emerged from Joseph’s First Vision are priceless gifts to humanity from our Heavenly Father. Throughout the centuries, God has always revealed sacred truths to those whom He appoints. Truly understanding and gaining the full benefit of those truths only comes as a gift from the Father through the instrumentality of the Holy Ghost.

The restoration of the Gospel of Jesus Christ was divinely appointed and will continue to lift and bless mankind as we actually follow him in truth and righteousness, whether we be Catholic, Protestant, Muslim, Jew or Gentile. .

Cheers, Peikin
~Nick

 

[twopekinguys]

Of course he did…

The revealed truths that emerged from Joseph’s First Vision are priceless gifts to humanity from our Heavenly Father. Throughout the centuries, God has always revealed sacred truths to those whom He appoints. Truly understanding and gaining the full benefit of those truths only comes as a gift from the Father through the instrumentality of the Holy Ghost.

The restoration of the Gospel of Jesus Christ was divinely appointed and will continue to lift and bless mankind as we actually follow him in truth and righteousness, whether we be Catholic, Protestant, Muslim, Jew or Gentile. .

Cheers, Peikin
~Nick

But which version are you going with? Maybe you’re going with a conglomeration of all 9?

I’ll save you some time here. The Gospel was never “Restored”, because Christ never left his Church,(which would be the Catholic Church).

So unfortunately, that leaves you with a convicted conman with 9 different versions of some “vision”, that ultimately led to a book about massive cultures that have never been found.

By the way, one failed prophecy makes that “prophet” a false prophet. Smith had multiple failed prophecies.

Seeing the light yet? If not, check out this link, and see just some of the problems with the “first vision.”

This is just one of my favorites. "If Joseph Smith saw God in 1820, why did he pray in his room in 1823 to find out “if a Supreme being did exist?”

Just a note for your own well being. I would be very careful how you word your responses. The one above could definitely be considered proselytizing, which is against forum rules.

Good try though.