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Dchsknight
Guest
So what now, where is your Authoritative Genealogy?
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LDSGuy
Guest
Please start a new thread if you would like to discuss the apostasy and “authoritative genealogy”. I don’t think you took the time to understand what you read, because the apostasy isn’t about claiming the “Bible has fallen”. Also, Orthodox Christians, who claim that they are also the true Church, and which the Catholic Church says has valid apostolic succession, valid (though maybe illicit) sacraments and orders, would not be impressed by the list of Popes, as they also believe much of current though on the office of the Pope (infallibility, supremacy, etc) are innovations. We are not either, especially because of the apostasy. If there were changes in Christian beliefs, the long list of Popes also would not matter.
I highly advise you to read the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints’ website, and the links above before you continue discussion. You’ll notice that others on here that believe the LDS Church is not a true church at least were brought up in it, and/or have extensively read both sides, and not just the usual anti-Mormon websites I suspect you’ve been reading.
Good night
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prodigalson12
Guest
I have not read the entire book, yet I have taken some peeks into it, and in each case, the story line was about some group of people slaughtering another and praising God for it. I stayed with a person that was supposably a “devout” mormon, did the church and after church activities and the whole shebang. I saw took a peek into some “children’s books” he had laying around the kitchen table. In one of them, it was showing child like characters of some people that beheaded some Jew and stole from him. It was quite disturbing to see something like this in all of the graphic detail of the person holding the victims head, like a prize brought back to the rest of them and now they are on the run from the Jews due to it. This story clearly shows to me that they were the enemies of the Jews, not allies as they claim now.
This person explained to me a few odd things as well to their beliefs, such as how God made many worlds and Christ came to all of them, yet our world being the absolute most wicked in comparison to the others, we were the only ones to actually kill him. They very concept of even remotely thinking we will one day become “gods” ourselves is blasphemy, for there is only one God and that is a simple fact never to be overlooked.
What we have here is a combination of self loathing/you are never worthy no matter what mentality, which in turn makes what Christ sacrificed a mute issue and it’s being brainwashed through some rather vile means to even the youngest of them.
Oh, btw, that “devout” mormon lied, cheated, cursed, had a horrible work ethic, beard false whitness, and treated me with such a cold, worldy way, taking complete advantage of me, that in the end, I have absolutely no respect for it as a religion of any kind, way, form or fascet, for this person being as so called devout as he was, clearly showed me the truth to the nature of that church itself, for this was the fruit it produced and the fruit was rotting before it even germinated.
Sorry for the strong opinion here if it offends, but I have one in this case and I learned it in a very devestating manner.
This person explained to me a few odd things as well to their beliefs, such as how God made many worlds and Christ came to all of them, yet our world being the absolute most wicked in comparison to the others, we were the only ones to actually kill him. They very concept of even remotely thinking we will one day become “gods” ourselves is blasphemy, for there is only one God and that is a simple fact never to be overlooked.
What we have here is a combination of self loathing/you are never worthy no matter what mentality, which in turn makes what Christ sacrificed a mute issue and it’s being brainwashed through some rather vile means to even the youngest of them.
Oh, btw, that “devout” mormon lied, cheated, cursed, had a horrible work ethic, beard false whitness, and treated me with such a cold, worldy way, taking complete advantage of me, that in the end, I have absolutely no respect for it as a religion of any kind, way, form or fascet, for this person being as so called devout as he was, clearly showed me the truth to the nature of that church itself, for this was the fruit it produced and the fruit was rotting before it even germinated.
Sorry for the strong opinion here if it offends, but I have one in this case and I learned it in a very devestating manner.
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ParkerD
Guest
Prodigal Son and others,
A lot has been brought up here. I suppose I should provide some explanations.
First–I won’t try and defend the bad behavior of someone you met who said they were LDS. If they did the things you described, then that is a great shame, but there are millions of us who have never lived that way and who are known as people of integrity.
The group who came to the Americas from Jerusalem in about 588 BC brought with them a set of writings on leaf-like “plates” made of brass, which were the writings that gave them some of Moses’ words plus the words of several of the other Old Testament prophets such as Isaiah. They obtained those writings after they first tried to purchases them from a man named Laban who owned them. Laban stole their bargaining property–precious coins and other treasure–and tried to have them killed.
The account describes how Nephi was directed by the Spirit to kill Laban (but he sort of argued with the Spirit, since doing that was abhorrent to his own beliefs}, nor did he take the head of Laban with him as you described, though he did dress himself in Laban’s clothing so that he could obtain the key to where the 'brass plates" were kept locked up, by acting as if he were Laban in the presence of Laban’s servant.
Thus, right away a reader of the Book of Mormon sees a story on paper that will test their own belief system or faith. Some put the book aside saying to themselves that the Spirit would never do that, yet they believe in Noah and the flood and many Old Testament justified slayings.
The Book of Mormon is a test of our hearts desires. Do we want to receive communication from God by the influence of the Spirit, even if it means changing our way of life or our attitudes? Do we love God enough to do that? Do we love the scriptures such as the Bible enough to believe that God would want a group of people He was leading into a new world, to have the words of the Bible for themselves and their posterity in the place He was going to lead them to? If not, the reader puts the book down, goes on their way, and has not been coddled into trying to be persuaded to believe something beyond what they want to believe. Others give the situation described the benefit of plausiblity, and read on.
I will explain briefly about the idea of becoming like God. John the revelator wrote about becoming 'joint-heirs" with Christ. He also wrote about “when He shall appear we shall be like Him”. What do these words mean?. They are an example of how the LDS belief says they mean exactly what the words say. Exactly. Like Him, with a resurrected body, with the kind of love He has, with the kind of knowledge He has, with power in heaven through Christ’s power and through the “faith of a grain of mustard seed”.
We are all “prodigal sons”. “All we like sheep have gone astray.” “We have turned every one to his own way, and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquities of us all.” Christ was willing to do this for us, but He will not force us in any way to believe beyond what we are voluntarily willing to receive.
A lot has been brought up here. I suppose I should provide some explanations.
First–I won’t try and defend the bad behavior of someone you met who said they were LDS. If they did the things you described, then that is a great shame, but there are millions of us who have never lived that way and who are known as people of integrity.
The group who came to the Americas from Jerusalem in about 588 BC brought with them a set of writings on leaf-like “plates” made of brass, which were the writings that gave them some of Moses’ words plus the words of several of the other Old Testament prophets such as Isaiah. They obtained those writings after they first tried to purchases them from a man named Laban who owned them. Laban stole their bargaining property–precious coins and other treasure–and tried to have them killed.
The account describes how Nephi was directed by the Spirit to kill Laban (but he sort of argued with the Spirit, since doing that was abhorrent to his own beliefs}, nor did he take the head of Laban with him as you described, though he did dress himself in Laban’s clothing so that he could obtain the key to where the 'brass plates" were kept locked up, by acting as if he were Laban in the presence of Laban’s servant.
Thus, right away a reader of the Book of Mormon sees a story on paper that will test their own belief system or faith. Some put the book aside saying to themselves that the Spirit would never do that, yet they believe in Noah and the flood and many Old Testament justified slayings.
The Book of Mormon is a test of our hearts desires. Do we want to receive communication from God by the influence of the Spirit, even if it means changing our way of life or our attitudes? Do we love God enough to do that? Do we love the scriptures such as the Bible enough to believe that God would want a group of people He was leading into a new world, to have the words of the Bible for themselves and their posterity in the place He was going to lead them to? If not, the reader puts the book down, goes on their way, and has not been coddled into trying to be persuaded to believe something beyond what they want to believe. Others give the situation described the benefit of plausiblity, and read on.
I will explain briefly about the idea of becoming like God. John the revelator wrote about becoming 'joint-heirs" with Christ. He also wrote about “when He shall appear we shall be like Him”. What do these words mean?. They are an example of how the LDS belief says they mean exactly what the words say. Exactly. Like Him, with a resurrected body, with the kind of love He has, with the kind of knowledge He has, with power in heaven through Christ’s power and through the “faith of a grain of mustard seed”.
We are all “prodigal sons”. “All we like sheep have gone astray.” “We have turned every one to his own way, and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquities of us all.” Christ was willing to do this for us, but He will not force us in any way to believe beyond what we are voluntarily willing to receive.
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ParkerD
Guest
I will explain briefly about the “great apostasy” which has been brought up.
The Old Testament has many prophecies about the Jews and the other tribes of the House of Israel being scattered all over the world, and how there will be a return or a gathering of a covenant group of people in the last days. Micah speaks of a famine from “hearing the word of the Lord”. That has happened. There was a famine from hearing the word of the Lord.
When Christ said, “the gates of hell shall not prevail against it” could he not have just as easily and rightly meant “even if the Jews and Gentiles take the Church that I establish through Peter and change the doctrines after I have ascended to heaven and he (Peter) has died, and even if the priesthood authority is lost for a long time from the earth because the leaders no longer keep the same covenants I taught them, then I promise that in the last days these influences will not prevail and my precious doctrine and those precious covenants will again be taught among humankind.”
Righteousness will prevail at that time. Good will triumph over the evil in the hearts of men. Christ’s victory will be completed, as He promised that it would. The beginning of that time of the “last days” occurred during the 1700’s and the 1800’s, and the covenants and authority have been brought back to the earth.
Joseph Smith received the keys of the priesthood from Peter, by the laying on of hands from Peter’s very hands. I personally have that same authority, as have and do have millions of other men since Joseph Smith. Men all over the world have that authrotiy so that they can bless and strengthen their own families, not relying on a few leaders to bless their families, but fulfilling the promise of Moses that there would be a “kingdom of priests.” “Every man shall speak in the name of God the Lord.” Not just popes. To do that, we have to be able to “hear” God’s voice speaking to us through the Spirit, through the scriptures, through understanding His words.
I tesify these things are true and right. God loves all of us, and is not holding back but will give us only that which we are looking for and are willing to receive from Him.
The Old Testament has many prophecies about the Jews and the other tribes of the House of Israel being scattered all over the world, and how there will be a return or a gathering of a covenant group of people in the last days. Micah speaks of a famine from “hearing the word of the Lord”. That has happened. There was a famine from hearing the word of the Lord.
When Christ said, “the gates of hell shall not prevail against it” could he not have just as easily and rightly meant “even if the Jews and Gentiles take the Church that I establish through Peter and change the doctrines after I have ascended to heaven and he (Peter) has died, and even if the priesthood authority is lost for a long time from the earth because the leaders no longer keep the same covenants I taught them, then I promise that in the last days these influences will not prevail and my precious doctrine and those precious covenants will again be taught among humankind.”
Righteousness will prevail at that time. Good will triumph over the evil in the hearts of men. Christ’s victory will be completed, as He promised that it would. The beginning of that time of the “last days” occurred during the 1700’s and the 1800’s, and the covenants and authority have been brought back to the earth.
Joseph Smith received the keys of the priesthood from Peter, by the laying on of hands from Peter’s very hands. I personally have that same authority, as have and do have millions of other men since Joseph Smith. Men all over the world have that authrotiy so that they can bless and strengthen their own families, not relying on a few leaders to bless their families, but fulfilling the promise of Moses that there would be a “kingdom of priests.” “Every man shall speak in the name of God the Lord.” Not just popes. To do that, we have to be able to “hear” God’s voice speaking to us through the Spirit, through the scriptures, through understanding His words.
I tesify these things are true and right. God loves all of us, and is not holding back but will give us only that which we are looking for and are willing to receive from Him.
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BartBurk
Guest
That’s the problem. The Book of Mormon is not credible. I love the scriptures enough to realize the Book of Mormon isn’t scripture. I can receive communication from God through the Spirit without the Book of Mormon. I can change my way of life to conform to God’s will without the Book of Mormon. I was one of those who was entrapped by Mormonism as a teenager and thankfully was able to find out the truth about it. After 34 years of Mormonism I entered the Catholic Church three years ago. It wasn’t easy to admit that I had been wrong about Mormonism or to leave the tradition I had developed in Mormonism behind, but the Book of Mormon has been proven to be untrue. Add to that all of the historical problems in Mormonism such as polygamy and Joseph Smith’s general dishonesty and there is nothing about Mormonism worth saving.
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Jerusha
Guest
Shhh!!! In the face of such blatant dishonesy, some of us believe that we have the right to some minor dishonesty.
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ParkerD
Guest
BartBurk,
My point was that you are being allowed to believe exactly what you want to believe. I love the Bible as much as or perhaps more than yourself. I could quote it verbatim for perhaps a solid hour. I also love the Book of Mormon. Just because you think it doesn’t read 'like the Bible" doesn’t mean it couldn’t also be scripture from God’s prophets. People have different languages, different idioms, different ways of expressing themselves. If one reads the Psalms one does not find the exact same writing style as the words of Isaiah, but they are both scripture. (Actually, the Biblical translation is complicated in this respect because Tyndale and Wycliffe brought into English their understanding of the translation, and it is beautiful but it uses their manner of expression.)
You will do fine with your beliefs. I do not chastise you for those beliefs, even if you have misgivings about things I know to be true. You are entitled to believe as you choose to do. If you want more, there is more to know. If not, you have plenty of excuses to stay with the knowledge and understanding that you want to have and live by. Enjoy going it from there.
My point was that you are being allowed to believe exactly what you want to believe. I love the Bible as much as or perhaps more than yourself. I could quote it verbatim for perhaps a solid hour. I also love the Book of Mormon. Just because you think it doesn’t read 'like the Bible" doesn’t mean it couldn’t also be scripture from God’s prophets. People have different languages, different idioms, different ways of expressing themselves. If one reads the Psalms one does not find the exact same writing style as the words of Isaiah, but they are both scripture. (Actually, the Biblical translation is complicated in this respect because Tyndale and Wycliffe brought into English their understanding of the translation, and it is beautiful but it uses their manner of expression.)
You will do fine with your beliefs. I do not chastise you for those beliefs, even if you have misgivings about things I know to be true. You are entitled to believe as you choose to do. If you want more, there is more to know. If not, you have plenty of excuses to stay with the knowledge and understanding that you want to have and live by. Enjoy going it from there.
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BartBurk
Guest
Are you convinced the Book of Mormon is the translation of the work of real ancient Native Americans or do you just believe it is spiritually true?
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ParkerD
Guest
Fair question. I am certain that it is the work of a group of people (their prophet leaders) who lived in ancient America. I also am certain that it is spiritually true, as is the Bible.
These people used mostly wood structures. After the Nephite civilization was wiped out entirely, the people who were still around (many of them Lamanites) continued fighting among themselves, using every weapon they could lay their hands on or make. Of course there are no evidences by archeology. There were people still around who took the stuff with them. Also, the civiliation collapse was a gradual thing.
Our civilization could go either way, based on collective choices of us, the people living today. I am heartily glad the Catholic church has taken the stand it has taken on many issues. There are many good people in that faith tradition. You are in good company. But no need to malign the LDS church in the process of trying to defend your own beliefs.
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PaulDupre
Guest
So long as there are 50,000 LDS missionaries going door-to-door telling people that our beliefs are an abomination and that we who profess those beliefs are corrupt, then yes we have to malign the LDS church to defend our faith.
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ParkerD
Guest
I’ll add a postscript. First, sorry about two misspelled words I didn’t catch as I typed earlier today. Second, here is a quote from the Pope:
“Added to this is the need for all those who believe in God to join in seeking peace, to attempt to draw closer to one another, and to journey together, even with their differing images of God, towards the source of Light - this is interreligious dialogue.”
I hope that statement is something we can agree on. I totally agree with it.
“Added to this is the need for all those who believe in God to join in seeking peace, to attempt to draw closer to one another, and to journey together, even with their differing images of God, towards the source of Light - this is interreligious dialogue.”
I hope that statement is something we can agree on. I totally agree with it.
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Dchsknight
Guest
The thing about what Jesus Said and all that business, is that Jesus Always said what he meant, Meant what he said, and explained himself if it was a parable or metaphor.
Moron…i mean mormons are still of the devil and speak lies.
Moron…i mean mormons are still of the devil and speak lies.
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BartBurk
Guest
I’m all for seeking peace, but that doesn’t mean ignoring falsehoods. I’ll seek peace with Muslims, but I’m not going to back off if someone tries to tell me that Islam is true. The same with Mormonism.
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ParkerD
Guest
PaulDupre,
They have not been taught to do that. There is a huge difference between words that say “creeds are an abomination” and words that say “your beliefs are an abomination.” I don’t think in those terms at all, nor do I “think you are corrupt.”
All of us “come short of the glory of God.” But if God wants us to continue learning, growing, progressing toward greater happiness through greater understanding, not being limited by belief systems that stop our process of personal revelation to help us grow, then I think He can use what words may get our attention–still not forcing us, but letting us choose for ourselves.
I still like what the Pope said which I quoted just before this.
They have not been taught to do that. There is a huge difference between words that say “creeds are an abomination” and words that say “your beliefs are an abomination.” I don’t think in those terms at all, nor do I “think you are corrupt.”
All of us “come short of the glory of God.” But if God wants us to continue learning, growing, progressing toward greater happiness through greater understanding, not being limited by belief systems that stop our process of personal revelation to help us grow, then I think He can use what words may get our attention–still not forcing us, but letting us choose for ourselves.
I still like what the Pope said which I quoted just before this.
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ParkerD
Guest
Knight in Shining Armor,
You are a child, and have no credibility. Your time will be better served reading the Bible over and over, and thinking deeply about what you read. The God you believe in wants you to do that.
You are a child, and have no credibility. Your time will be better served reading the Bible over and over, and thinking deeply about what you read. The God you believe in wants you to do that.
M
MGLechner
Guest
Sorry, Paul…I was addressing Parker…he must have changed it since my inquiry…because now he is defined as LDS…
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PaulDupre
Guest
It is exactly the same thing. The creed that I recite at mass every Sunday is my belief. Saying that the creed is an abomination is saying that my beliefs are an abomination. And saying that “all those professors are corrupt” is saying that I, a professor of that creed, am corrupt.
I think you have never really considered what that statement from Joseph’s first vision really means. I think it’s time to post about that…
And perhaps you don’t know, but I served an LDS mission in the Taiwan Taipei Mission so I know exactly what the missionaries are trained to do. Where did you serve your mission?
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PaulDupre
Guest
The Mormon Church has 50,000 young boys traveling the world claiming that God said:
What about this creed makes me, a professor of this creed, rotten, morally debased, perverted, evil and depraved?
God bless you,
Paul
Let’s examine this statement. Webster’s New World College Dictionary defines abomination as
The same dictionary defines professor as
The dictionary defines corrupt as
Here is the Nicene Creed, the most-often recited Christian Creed and the one I as a Catholic profess at mass every Sunday:
Now tell me, ParkerD, what part of my creed is filthy, hateful and disgusting?
What about this creed makes me, a professor of this creed, rotten, morally debased, perverted, evil and depraved?
God bless you,
Paul
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ParkerD
Guest
PaulDupre,
I served in Los Angeles among many wonderful people of all denominations and from many countries of the world.
I have “abominable” beliefs, my friend, because I don’t yet know all I need to know and I act imperfectly. Any belief that leads me to do less than my best is “abominable” because it is imperfect. It needs to be refined, usually by experiences and by my being open to change. I love that process–I don’t shy away from it. That is called repentance. That is what the gospel of Jesus Christ offers us–the opportunity to learn what parts of our own belief system, whether learned by tradition, by teachings of others, or by our own concoction, are imperfect and need to be changed and refined.
I served in Los Angeles among many wonderful people of all denominations and from many countries of the world.
I have “abominable” beliefs, my friend, because I don’t yet know all I need to know and I act imperfectly. Any belief that leads me to do less than my best is “abominable” because it is imperfect. It needs to be refined, usually by experiences and by my being open to change. I love that process–I don’t shy away from it. That is called repentance. That is what the gospel of Jesus Christ offers us–the opportunity to learn what parts of our own belief system, whether learned by tradition, by teachings of others, or by our own concoction, are imperfect and need to be changed and refined.
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