Prodigal's Isle

[Socrates4Jesus]

Did you baptise your children yourself, did you baptise your neighbours children, did your neighbours baptise your children. Gets complicated when their is no order, who is doing what. Most people just go to the priest to have their children baptised. They prefer that.

Right. So let’s see what commands of the Great Commission apply only to the successors and what commands apply to all followers of Christ:

"All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. (a)

Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, (b)

baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, (c)

and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. (d)

And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age." (e)

(Matthew 28:18-20)
I understand you believe (c) applies only to the successors. Correct?

 

[Thing]

Right. So let’s see what commands of the Great Commission apply only to the successors and what commands apply to all followers of Christ:

"All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. (a)

Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, (b)

baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, (c)

and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. (d)

And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age." (e)

(Matthew 28:18-20)

          I understand you believe (c) applies only to the successors.  Correct?

I’ll try saying this again. Jesus brought the Apostles to a place alone and gave them the commission to teach and baptise all the nations.
If you want to teach and baptise all the nations you are free to do so - become a Catholic priest and/or Bishop.
You may teach your children yourself what you understand but will you let the village idiot teach your children because he tells you he was given the great commission.
a,b,c,d,e all form One thought. Its like building your house, all the different materials are listed a,b,c, etc. and alltogether, in this order and grouping they form a house. You can build a wall on your already built house and the block materials of your project will overlap the building material used in your house. But the builders are commissioned to build your house. If you wish to be a builder like them then go back to school and get yourself qualified to build houses. Don’t be the village idiot building wonky things for people.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

…

Summary:

proposed answer to the Great Question. The Great Commission is not either for everybody individually in every aspect, or for a "privileged elite " ( privileged ?).only. It is for the Apostolic Church seen as an ordered whole and for each of her members in their roles.

Bless you
P7

Agreed. And thank P7 you for your gracious and thoughtful reply!



I find it helps to step back and take a look at where i’ve been in a dialog before deciding how best to proceed. So please allow me to summarize our dialog as i see it:

That for which i’ve been searching, and for which you, Thing and others have been so patiently helping me find, is scriptural evidence that Christ, before His ascension, commanded the creation of the institution of the papacy. We found Matthew 16 to be reasonable evidence that Christ appointed Peter to a role of leadership, but could not conclude, from that passage alone, that this created the papacy.

Now we’ve examined Matthew 28, and come to the same conclusion. For as you said, Christ’s words are not for the Apostles alone, but for “each of [the church’s] members in their roles”. And i imagine that Thing will agree after thinking it through, or he will convince us both that we are wrong.

And i’m beginning to wonder whether the creation of the papacy was something that occurred after the closing of the Canon of Sacred Scripture. And although i’d find scriptural evidence easier to accept than non-scriptural, i’m not like one of the partisan Protestants who reject anything outside the pages of the Bible as being unreliable in regard to Christian doctrine.

So if you have other Sacred Scriptures you believe demonstrate that Christ instituted the papacy, please point them out so we can examine them together. But if you believe there is stronger evidence elsewhere, i’m willing to follow you to continue our investigation there. You mentioned, for example, the early Church Fathers, and provided a few quotes, which we have not really discussed thus far.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

I’ll try saying this again. Jesus brought the Apostles to a place alone and gave them the commission to teach and baptise all the nations.
If you want to teach and baptise all the nations you are free to do so - become a Catholic priest and/or Bishop.
You may teach your children yourself what you understand but will you let the village idiot teach your children because he tells you he was given the great commission.
a,b,c,d,e all form One thought. Its like building your house, all the different materials are listed a,b,c, etc. and alltogether, in this order and grouping they form a house. You can build a wall on your already built house and the block materials of your project will overlap the building material used in your house. But the builders are commissioned to build your house. If you wish to be a builder like them then go back to school and get yourself qualified to build houses. Don’t be the village idiot building wonky things for people.

http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn...ket.com/albums/r104/rjgibson/june_cleaver.jpg

So Johnny’s mom should never try to teach her son what Jesus expects? She should call her priest and have him explain what Christ taught, instead?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Or what of Fathers, should they never teach their children anything that Jesus commanded? Is this the job of the father of their parish alone?

Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. “Honor your father and mother”—which is the first commandment with a promise—“that it may go well with you and that you may enjoy long life on the earth.” Fathers, do not exasperate your children; instead, bring them up in the training and instruction of the Lord.

(Ephesians 6:1-4)

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

It seems to me that P7 is correct when he says that these words of Christ"… teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you."

(Matthew 28:20)

apply to all Catholics in their specific roles. Isn’t this a command for every Christian parent regarding his or her children?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Now maybe i misunderstand. Maybe your argument goes something like this:

Paul writes:
And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues. Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret?

(1 Corinthians 12:28-30)

Since he states that not all are teachers, then the spiritual gift of teaching is one that not all Christians have. Therefore, the Great Commission applies to some degree to all believers, but especially to those to whom God has given this gift.

Is this what you are saying?

 

[Thing]

Now maybe i misunderstand. Maybe your argument goes something like this:

Paul writes:
And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues. Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret?

(1 Corinthians 12:28-30)

Since he states that not all are teachers, then the spiritual gift of teaching is one that not all Christians have. Therefore, the Great Commission applies to some degree to all believers, but especially to those to whom God has given this gift.

Is this what you are saying?

Oh joy. Are all Apostles?. Who was Jesus speaking to, specifically. 11 Apostles. Have I said that before?.. I must remind myself that I’m on Gilligans’ island, not Things island.

And will your personal teaching comply with the teaching of the Apostles who were given the commission. I would have to say yes it must. So who are the teachers?

 

[utunumsint]

http://dljh1964.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/ward.jpg

Or what of Fathers, should they never teach their children anything that Jesus commanded? Is this the job of the father of their parish alone?

Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. “Honor your father and mother”—which is the first commandment with a promise—“that it may go well with you and that you may enjoy long life on the earth.” Fathers, do not exasperate your children; instead, bring them up in the training and instruction of the Lord.

(Ephesians 6:1-4)

Well Socrates, don’t you believe in your concept of the Philosohper king?

God bless,
Ut

 

[utunumsint]

For these reasons, i see no need to say that the Bible is ambiguous regarding the teaching of the Trinity. But do you still disagree?

Are you saying that it is impossible to err when one is trying to interprete the Bible?

God bless,
Ut

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Are you saying that it is impossible to err when one is trying to interprete the Bible?

God bless,
Ut

Glad to have you back, Ut! What i’m saying is that all of the people to whom i’ve spoken who deny the doctrine of the Trinity also deny the accuracy of the biblical text–Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Muslims, Jewish people.

However, maybe your experience is different than mine. Can you give me just ONE example of someone who believes 100% of the Bible is 100% accurate, and yet rejects accept the doctrine of the Trinity?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Well Socrates, don’t you believe in your concept of the Philosohper king?

God bless,
Ut

Sorry, but i’m unfamiliar with the concept. If that is what i said, i’m sure i got the idea from someone else and cannot take credit for it. Nevertheless, i’ve forgotten ever using the words “philosopher king”. Please remind me of what i said.

 

[pneuma07]

Agreed. And thank P7 you for your gracious and thoughtful reply!



I find it helps to step back and take a look at where i’ve been in a dialog before deciding how best to proceed. So please allow me to summarize our dialog as i see it:

That for which i’ve been searching, and for which you, Thing and others have been so patiently helping me find, is scriptural evidence that Christ, before His ascension, commanded the creation of the institution of the papacy. We found Matthew 16 to be reasonable evidence that Christ appointed Peter to a role of leadership, but could not conclude, from that passage alone, that this created the papacy.

Now we’ve examined Matthew 28, and come to the same conclusion. For as you said, Christ’s words are not for the Apostles alone, but for “each of [the church’s] members in their roles”. And i imagine that Thing will agree after thinking it through, or he will convince us both that we are wrong.

And i’m beginning to wonder whether the creation of the papacy was something that occurred after the closing of the Canon of Sacred Scripture. And although i’d find scriptural evidence easier to accept than non-scriptural, i’m not like one of the partisan Protestants who reject anything outside the pages of the Bible as being unreliable in regard to Christian doctrine.

So if you have other Sacred Scriptures you believe demonstrate that Christ instituted the papacy, please point them out so we can examine them together. But if you believe there is stronger evidence elsewhere, i’m willing to follow you to continue our investigation there. You mentioned, for example, the early Church Fathers, and provided a few quotes, which we have not really discussed thus far.

Dear Soc,

       I hope to capitalize on this agreement on this issue to get more fruitful agreements. :)

About catholic parenting I’d propose a formula hopefully shared by yourself and Thing:
catholic parents are educated by the Church ( there are ad hoc catechisms issued by the Episcopal Conferences) to educate their children into the Chruch.

As for the point of the situation, when we are at about one third of the thread ( if it’s going to reach 1000 posts) I’m pleased you do not ask to prove Sola Scriptura the authority of the Church. (This is what the thread is about, if we rememeber; the authority of the Church.) This is quite a modern exercise. Let’s listen to him who is arguably considered
the most prominent western Father by catholicism, as well as by many protestants.
St. Augustine, I mean.

The consent of peoples and nations keeps me in the Church; so does her authority, inaugurated by miracles, nourished by hope, enlarged by love, established by age. The succession of priests keeps me, beginning from the very seat of the Apostle Peter, to whom the Lord, after His resurrection, gave it in charge to feed His sheep, down to the present episcopate. And so, lastly, does the name itself of Catholic, which, not without reason, amid so many heresies, the Church has thus retained; so that, though all heretics wish to be called Catholics, yet when a stranger asks where the Catholic Church meets, no heretic will venture to point to his own chapel or house.

For my part, I should not believe the gospel except as moved by the authority of the Catholic Church. So when those on whose authority I have consented to believe in the gospel tell me not to believe in Manichæus, how can I but consent? Take your choice. If you say, Believe the Catholics: their advice to me is to put no faith in you; so that, believing them, I am precluded from believing you—If you say, Do not believe the Catholics: you cannot fairly use the gospel in bringing me to faith in Manichæus; for it was at the command of the Catholics that I believed the gospel;— Again, if you say, You were right in believing the Catholics when they praised the gospel, but wrong in believing their vituperation of Manichæus: do you think me such a fool as to believe or not to believe as you like or dislike, without any reason? It is therefore fairer and safer by far for me, having in one instance put faith in the Catholics, not to go over to you, till, instead of bidding me believe, you make me understand something in the clearest and most open manner. To convince me, then, you must put aside the gospel. If you keep to the gospel, I will keep to those who commanded me to believe the gospel; and, in obedience to them, I will not believe you at all. But if haply you should succeed in finding in the gospel an incontrovertible testimony to the apostleship of Manichæus, you will weaken my regard for the authority of the Catholics who bid me not to believe you; and the effect of that will be, that I shall no longer be able to believe the gospel either, for it was through the Catholics that I got my faith in it; and so, whatever you bring from the gospel will no longer have any weight with me. (Against the Fundamental Epistle of Manichaeus, ch. 4 and 5).

What are your impressions about these solemn clear words so right on topic for us ?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Oh joy. Are all Apostles?. Who was Jesus speaking to, specifically. 11 Apostles. Have I said that before?.. I must remind myself that I’m on Gilligans’ island, not Things island.

And will your personal teaching comply with the teaching of the Apostles who were given the commission. I would have to say yes it must. So who are the teachers?

Well, i imagine anyone who is familiar with the truth and has a way of communicating it to causes people to become interested in learning for themselves and become as familiar as she is. But you ask an extremely good question, and the broader question which naturally follows from it is this: What are the attributes of an Apostle? Socrates said:

No matter what the subject, there is for those who wish to deliberate well upon it always one and the same starting point: You must know what it is you are deliberating about, or you will inevitably fail altogether. Most people, however, are not aware of their ignorance of a thing’s essential nature, and because they think they know all about it, they fail to secure agreement about the premises of their inquiry at its beginning. As they proceed, they reap the predictable harvest of this oversight: They disagree with one another and even contradict themselves. Now, you and I must not be guilty of this fundamental error that we condemn in others …

(Phaedrus, 237)

It seems to me that if we don’t first establish what the attributes of an Apostle are, we will fail altogether at trying to determine whether one person or another is one. The Catholic priests, bishops and popes, if they are genuine successors of the original Apostles, must be like them.

So let’s focus our discussion on this question: What makes one a true Apostle? That is, what are the qualities, or attributes that all real Apostles possess?

 

[pneuma07]

As for the Grat Commssion I do not consider it as specifically on papacy, if this is what you’re saying. But it does speak to us IMHO about authority and apostolicity. And the indefectibility of the Church. (You remeber that we came to the great Commission whem speaking about the presence, or lack of it, of specific commands by Jesus to write and compile a New Testament. BTW I maintain there isn’t such a command)

Let me ask at this point:

are you at present keeping or rejecting the “invisible church” model ? Should you come to concur that that model is untenable, this would be IMHO an immense step, therefore this answer of yours is of remarkable importance here.

I’d outline something like a possible workable program like this ( unless you were already convinced by Augustine’s acute and strong remarks . )

1. considering the antecedent probabibility that we were given a permanent living guardian/interpreter of Revelation
2. establishing persuasively the apostolic succession
3. getting from 2 the papacy and identifying the superior living informant with the Catholic Church.

Tell me whether that sounds reasonable.

In Christ
P7

PS Dear Ut, my wife is almost as Ok as before now. What about yours ?
Kisses to Timmy.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

As for the Grat Commssion I do not consider it as specifically on papacy, if this is what you’re saying. But it does speak to us IMHO about authority and apostolicity. And the indefectibility of the Church. (You remeber that we came to the great Commission whem speaking about the presence, or lack of it, of specific commands by Jesus to write and compile a New Testament. BTW I maintain there isn’t such a command) …

Thanks for replying, P7. Please tell me so i know the degree of importance of the premise, does Jesus giving no command to write the gospels support the idea that He instituted the papacy? If you believe so, please explain why.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

As for the Grate Commission I do not consider it as specifically on papacy, if this is what you’re saying.

No, but it is what THING is saying.

But it does speak to us IMHO about authority and apostolicity. And the indefectibility of the Church …

Please explain why it does.

 

[pneuma07]

Thanks for replying, P7. Please tell me so i know the degree of importance of the premise, does Jesus giving no command to write the gospels support the idea that He instituted the papacy? If you believe so, please explain why.

What I propose is simply a response to a frequent objection by many protestant brothers.
I’d ask them: " How can you tell us you reject the papacy just because it is not commanded by Jesus as recorded in the NT, when the NT itself that you and I accept is not commanded as recorded in the NT itself ? "

.

 

[pneuma07]

Please explain why it does.

16Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

Telegraphically: :

Authority:: All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and … Christ sends the Eleven because he has authority. Who sends, seems to tell us the “therefore” has to have authority. The Apostles will “send” others after them, meaning they receeived authority from Christ. And so on. .

Pauls explains in Romans 10* And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15And how can they preach unless they are sent*? .

Who preaches has to be sent. Who sends has to have authority. Can you see now here a chain of legitimate sent/sending authorities within the Apostolic Churches ?

Apostolicity: See above, and your agreement that the Great Commission is for the Apostolic Church.

Indefectibility. If Jesus will always be with His apostles, their successors and the Apostolic Church ( aka His Church, built on the “petra”) this is prevented from derailing. .

(BTW Do you know how the stress in the Great Commission on obeying everything Jesus commanded is seen in Sola Fide communities ?)

Bless you.

 

[Thing]

Well, i imagine anyone who is familiar with the truth and has a way of communicating it to causes people to become interested in learning for themselves and become as familiar as she is. But you ask an extremely good question, and the broader question which naturally follows from it is this: What are the attributes of an Apostle? Socrates said:

No matter what the subject, there is for those who wish to deliberate well upon it always one and the same starting point: You must know what it is you are deliberating about, or you will inevitably fail altogether. Most people, however, are not aware of their ignorance of a thing’s essential nature, and because they think they know all about it, they fail to secure agreement about the premises of their inquiry at its beginning. As they proceed, they reap the predictable harvest of this oversight: They disagree with one another and even contradict themselves. Now, you and I must not be guilty of this fundamental error that we condemn in others …

(Phaedrus, 237)

It seems to me that if we don’t first establish what the attributes of an Apostle are, we will fail altogether at trying to determine whether one person or another is one. The Catholic priests, bishops and popes, if they are genuine successors of the original Apostles, must be like them.

So let’s focus our discussion on this question: What makes one a true Apostle? That is, what are the qualities, or attributes that all real Apostles possess?

Two more questions to be answered;

Do I appoint myself to be a successor, an Apostle?

Am I appointed by another?

And another question;

If I appoint myself then by whose authority do I act, mine or anothers?

And another question;

The Apostles died and their successors assumed authority to themselves, or were they given authority?

And another question, (well… *almost *the same really);

*Did *the Apostles have authority given to them,
Now when it was late that same day, the first of the week, and the doors were shut, where the disciples were gathered together, …
…He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you…?

---

These things command and teach. 12 Let no man despise thy youth: but be thou an example of the faithful in word, in conversation, in charity, in faith, in chastity. 13 Till I come, attend unto reading, to exhortation, and to doctrine. 14 Neglect not the grace that is in thee, which was given thee by prophesy, with imposition of the hands of the priesthood. 15 Meditate upon these things, be wholly in these things: that thy profiting may be manifest to all.

16 Take heed to thyself and to doctrine: be earnest in them. For in doing this thou shalt both save thyself and them that hear thee.

Do the Apostles ensure the continuation of the same doctrine?

Now the Spirit manifestly saith, that in the last times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to spirits of error, and doctrines of devils, 2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy, and having their conscience seared…

And do they warn against deviation from *their *doctrines?

So ought *I *deviate and become teacher, with my own authority, interprete create destroy doctrines, or continue to accept the Apostolic doctrines?

I don’t particularly need to decide what an Apostle is, they have already been here and gone, and they have left us their doctrines to follow.