Prodigal's Isle

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pneuma07 said:
What I propose is simply a response to a frequent objection by many protestant brothers.
I’d ask them: " How can you tell us you reject the papacy just because it is not commanded by Jesus as recorded in the NT, when the NT itself that you and I accept is not commanded as recorded in the NT itself?"
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Thank you, P7; now you’re speaking my language (the language of dialog)!

👍

That is a good question, and one that should be explored. So let’s go exploring! You and i both believe that the Apostles were commanded to be witnesses for Christ. For as said before, Jesus gave them this command:
“This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. You are witnesses of these things.”

(Luke 24-46-48)

Now a questions to ask is exactly of what were the Apostles witnesses? For one, they were to give eyewitness testimony that Christ suffered, died and rose from the dead on the third day. But notice what Christ did before He gave them this command:
Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures.

(verse 45)

Why do this? Because the Sacred Scriptures of the Old Testament predicted that the Messiah would suffer, die, and rise from the dead. Paul says the same when he describes the gospel of Jesus:
Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures …

(1 Corinthians 15:1-4)

“According to the Scriptures,” is what the Apostle keeps writing. And he writes to the young priest Timothy:
But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

(2 Timothy 3:14-17)

So the holy Scriptures are able to make us wise for salvation in Christ. Peter says as much:
Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care, trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow.

(1 Peter 1:10-11)
So the question i’d like to ask next, P7 is this:

Were the Old Testament prophets witnesses for Christ?
 
Thing said:
… I don’t particularly need to decide what an Apostle is, they have already been here and gone, and they have left us their doctrines to follow.
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Yes, but i need to decide what an Apostle is, for how else could i recognize a modern Apostle? Isn’t that what a pope, a bishop and a priest is? Or do i misunderstand?

🤷
 
Thing said:
Two more questions to be answered;

Do I appoint myself to be a successor, an Apostle?

Am I appointed by another?

And another question;

If I appoint myself then by whose authority do I act, mine or anothers?

And another question;

The Apostles died and their successors assumed authority to themselves, or were they given authority?

And another question, (well… *almost *the same really);

*Did *the Apostles have authority given to them,

And do they warn against deviation from *their *doctrines?

So ought *I *deviate and become teacher, with my own authority, interprete create destroy doctrines, or continue to accept the Apostolic doctrines?
…
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The answer to these questions have to do with the nature of a modern Apostle. Do the Popes and Bishops have the same reliability as the Apostles of the New Testament? Does God speak to the Popes and Bishops today with the same clarity and consistency and cogency that He used when speaking to the Apostles who wrote the infallible doctrines in the New Testament?

I hope you see why it is important to me to define what an Apostle is. By doing so, i hope to determine if a Pope who declares new doctrine, or if a counsel of Bishops who decide by vote regarding a doctrine, are as immune to error as the Apostles were. That is, after all, the point of this discussion thread–to determine if the authorities of the Catholic Church are those i should trust.
 
Socrates4Jesus said:
Yes, but i need to decide what an Apostle is, for how else could i recognize a modern Apostle? Isn’t that what a pope, a bishop and a priest is? Or do i misunderstand?

🤷
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The Apostles were chosen and taught by Jesus. Now they are gone. I don’t go looking for new Apostles like the Tibetans look for their Dalai Lama. Think of a relay race where St John the Apostle chosen and taught by Christ lays hands on (I don’t mean violently) St. Polycarp or another who is to be Bishop of the Church. The Bishop learns everything he knows from the Apostle. The powers and authority Christ gave His Apostles to act in His name continue in this Bishop. and in the Bishop who succeedes him. etc. etc.

We know Jesus left His authority among men to act when He left. We also know He spent three years teaching the Apostles. And we know the Apostles taught their disciples who would become Bishops also.

If you wish to roam the mountainy places searching for an Apostle you may indeed find someone eventually who will tell you that he is an Apostle, but he will not be able to tell you how he knows this.
 
Socrates4Jesus said:
The answer to these questions have to do with the nature of a modern Apostle. Do the Popes and Bishops have the same reliability as the Apostles of the New Testament? Does God speak to the Popes and Bishops today with the same clarity and consistency and cogency that He used when speaking to the Apostles who wrote the infallible doctrines in the New Testament?

I hope you see why it is important to me to define what an Apostle is. By doing so, i hope to determine if a Pope who declares new doctrine, or if a counsel of Bishops who decide by vote regarding a doctrine, are as immune to error as the Apostles were. That is, after all, the point of this discussion thread–to determine if the authorities of the Catholic Church are those i should trust.
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You can think about that when a Pope declares a new doctrine.
 
Thing said:
The Apostles were chosen and taught by Jesus. Now they are gone. I don’t go looking for new Apostles like the Tibetans look for their Dalai Lama. Think of a relay race where St John the Apostle chosen and taught by Christ lays hands on (I don’t mean violently) St. Polycarp or another who is to be Bishop of the Church. The Bishop learns everything he knows from the Apostle. The powers and authority Christ gave His Apostles to act in His name continue in this Bishop. and in the Bishop who succeedes him. etc. etc.

We know Jesus left His authority among men to act when He left. We also know He spent three years teaching the Apostles. And we know the Apostles taught their disciples who would become Bishops also.

If you wish to roam the mountainy places searching for an Apostle you may indeed find someone eventually who will tell you that he is an Apostle, but he will not be able to tell you how he knows this.
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So the Pope is a successor to the Apostles without the same reliability of the Apostles?

🤷
 
Thing said:
Think of a divine relay race where reliability is passed on. 👍
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But you seem to be contradicting yourself. Or more likely, my understandings of what you are saying are contradicting themselves!

🙂

First you said that if i tried to climb every mountain searching for someone as reliable as an Apostle, i’d never find one. Now you are saying that the reliability the Apostolic Successors have is the same as that of the Apostles. Which position do you really hold? or are you, like me, unsure of what the truth is?

🤷
 
Socrates4Jesus said:
Glad to have you back, Ut! What i’m saying is that all of the people to whom i’ve spoken who deny the doctrine of the Trinity also deny the accuracy of the biblical text–Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Muslims, Jewish people.

However, maybe your experience is different than mine. Can you give me just ONE example of someone who believes 100% of the Bible is 100% accurate, and yet rejects accept the doctrine of the Trinity?

🙂
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Arius, Sabellius, and Eusebius.

God bless,
Ut
 
Socrates4Jesus said:
Sorry, but i’m unfamiliar with the concept. If that is what i said, i’m sure i got the idea from someone else and cannot take credit for it. Nevertheless, i’ve forgotten ever using the words “philosopher king”. Please remind me of what i said.
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Do you mean you haven’t read Plato’s Republic? 🙂

God bless,
Ut
 
P7:

You’ve posted many replies, with many points; and i have not responded to every one. The reason is that if you make several points; and i respond with several questions; and then you reply to all of those questions, add more points to your several points, which makes many points; and i reply with several other questions, making many questions; and so on, and so on; well, very soon we will get to 1,000 posts and be no closer to the truth than when we started!

So if i’m responding to the wrong replies, let me know. We should focus on what you believe to be the most efficient way to get me off this island!

😃
 
Socrates4Jesus said:
But you seem to be contradicting yourself. Or more likely, my understandings of what you are saying are contradicting themselves!

🙂

First you said that if i tried to climb every mountain searching for someone as reliable as an Apostle, i’d never find one. Now you are saying that the reliability the Apostolic Successors have is the same as that of the Apostles. Which position do you really hold? or are you, like me, unsure of what the truth is?

🤷
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An Apostle is one dispatched by Christ personally. You asked about finding an Apostle today; you will not find one today.

You may find someone who will call themselves an Apostle, but they are probably lacking oxygen.

The ones dispatched in turn by the Apostles are, like the Apostles, Bishops; but there is a one-step remove from Christ to the apostles of the Apostles.

So I call the Apostles, Apostles. And I call the successors of the Apostles, successors of the Apostles, not Apostles.

The successors succeed the Apostles in every power and way and reliability; the only difference being an accident of birth which placed them either after the death of Christ or not of the 11 Apostles.
 
utunumsint said:
Arius, Sabellius, and Eusebius.

God bless,
Ut
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Gee wiz, Professor! I simply don’t have enough information about these men to know whether your opinion is true. Will you give me one exact quote of Arius explaining his understanding of John 1:1-14? Or will you give me one exact quote of Sabellius explaining his understanding of Matthew 3:15-17?

If you are not privy to such information, then you are making the fallacy of arguing from ignorance (or lack of knowledge), aren’t you?
 
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