Prodigal's Isle

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JRKH said:
Just butting in Socrates,
I think you’ll agree that The Bible, while a wonderful and essential book, requires that we read it and draw meanings from those writings. In other words it is not exactly “Tab A into Slot B” kind of stuff. It requires some thinking and discerning. I’m sure that you will also agree that we rely on the Holy Sprit to guide us in these matters, of course we must be on the watch against the great deciever.
So which seems more reliable for help with “Bridging the Gap”, the actual successors of the Apostles, some of whose writings are readily available, or just yourself and others reading Scripture and trying to discern what was meant after 2000 years of history?

Peace
James
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James:

Are you saying that my earlier suspicion is correct? That is, do you think the Bible is sometimes ambiguous, and do you therefore believe it requires some authority to determine the correct interpretation of these ambiguous texts should be?
 
JRKH said:
You may well be right here Socrates, but as you have seen here, there are some who simply will not accept the evidence presented to them
Each plants bible passages in front of the other, and each denies the other’s interpretation of those passages.
Can you think of a better reason for Christ to establish and “Autoritative Church” to settle such differences?

Peace
James
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Yes, and i was once one of them. And i think some Catholics are still some of them. For when i say i was once one of them, i’m speaking of religious partisans, which are of both the Protestant and Catholic persuasion. Were it not for Socrates, and others, i might still be deceived into thinking i could not possibly be deceived. For his words describe the state in which i found my soul:When they begin to reason in private about their dislike of philosophy, if they have the courage to hear the argument out, and do not run away, they grow at last strangely disconcerted with themselves. Their rhetoric fades away, and they become helpless children.

(Theaetetus, 177)
But now that i’m not a partisan, i find that even though i’m not deceived (for i see the Bible is not as clearly Protestant as i once believed it to be). But i’ve become like a child in need, for i have not the truth i once thought i had but never had. For i now see the Bible is so unclear that i need help knowing what the truth might be, as a child need’s a loving parent to lend him a hand. Though, i readily admit, that knowing i don’t know the truth is better than being deceived into thinking the Bible was clear, when it was not.

http://www.care.org.uk/Images/content/147/129109.jpg
 
LionHeart777 said:
Hey Soc4Jesus,

as Paul C mentioned St. Augustine’s “Confessions” would be a good read for you,

I would like to additional suggest St. Justin Martyr, or St. Justin the philosopher as he is also called. I believe that after his conversion to Christianity, he kept wearing his Philosopher’s cloak.

I believe he describes his conversion from various seeking various Philosophies to Christianity in the beginning of his “Dialogue With Trypho.”
(newadvent.org/fathers/0128.htm)

Now all you need is lots of free time due to my extra suggestion:)
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Dialogue with Trypho

Written like a Socratic dialog. Cool.

👍

I’ll let you know what i think when i finish reading it.
 
JRKH said:
OOOHHHH OOOHHH – Call on me - I know I know - - - -

The answer depends on if you believe in Evolution or strict Creationism

If you believe in Evolution the answer is the egg came first cause Dinosaurs laid eggs. (you didn’t say a chicken egg)😃

If you are a “Creationist” then the Chicken came first, for God created the animals and THEN they procreated.

Did I get it right??

Peace
James
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What if you believe in both? 😛 Actually, the Church allows either position or a mixture of the two, as long as God is the instigator. The Church also does not teach the age of the universe, instead it encourages us to find out through science.
 
paul_c said:
This reasoning is sound. The first three statements are absoltuely true. the
Fourth statement is in error on two fronts:

If a spokesman contradicts the Apostles, he is not Catholic. Some of the early chruch fathers (like Tertullian) were actually excommunicated because their views changed from the Catholic view.

The official spokesman for the church is the Pope. As long as all the Popes stayed consistent with Apostolic Teaching, you can be assured that the Catholic Church is from God. This is absolutely the case.
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Paul:

I know that what Socrates said of himself is too true of me:
I have, I fear, a tedious way of putting a simple question.

(Theaetetus, 163)

But i have to ask, for i have to know: How do you know that “the Popes stayed consistent with Apostolic Teaching”? That is, how do you know the Pope today believes and teaches what Peter believed and taught nearly two thousand years prior?

🤷
 
paul_c said:
… I will caution you that Some Protestant / Evangelical commentators will wrongly interpret scripture (in other words, put words in the Apostles mouths) and then claim that the Catholic Church’s position differs from Scripture. What they really mean is that the Catholic church differs from what THE EVANGELICALS THINK scripture says.
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Perhaps you are right. But they would say that the Catholic Church teaches what THE CATHOLICS THINK scripture says. So both are throwing stones at the other, accusing the other of propagating lies. How do i know which side is throwing stones for a good reason?
 
paul_c said:
…
So the issue again, becomes : has the Catholic Church taught the same thing for 2000 years. Note that I said the same thing: (doctrine) vs the same way (practice) because the method of teaching has to be adapted for time and culture. Because scripture is not 100% inclusive and can obviously be misinterpreted, it therefore helpful to also consider the ECF view, but only those that are Catholic in good standing. …
%between%
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Agreed. Same question. How can i know the Catholic Church teaches the same truth Peter, Paul, and the others Apostles taught?
 
Hi Soc, there has been a lot of activity, it has taken me a while to catch up! It sounds like in the last few posts you might be ready to take some more steps on the bridge. This is where we left off, with you standing on Plank 0.53:

**Plank 0.53: Jesus granted Peter special authority over the other 10 remaining by giving him the additional gift of keys, calling him Rock, and praying for him specifically
**Plank 0.6: Peter could make rules for the Church that would be enforced in Heaven
Plank 0.61: Peter, when making rules, could not be in error, simply because Jesus said that Peter had the authority to do so
Plank 0.7: Peter used this authority to help the Church grow and work toward its mission
Plank 0.71: The Church grew and flourished, despite tremendous persecution
Plank 0.72: Several of the early Church fathers wrote letters, but most teaching was done in person
Plank 0.75: Peter provided a means by which the high offices of the Church (including his) could be filled
Plank 0.8: Any person taking Peter’s office would inherit his authority

Care to take any more steps to give a better idea of where you need some help?

BTW, I think the binding and loosing are words which have the connotation of forbid and permit. I’m not sure where I heard this, but I think it was an explanation based on the original Greek text with the historical context. If you need more pointers, I’m sure someone on the thread can help, or there may be another thread about this already.

We’re still with you Soc4J, we’ll keep holding your hand as you walk the bridge (like the picture you posted). I hope that when you reach the end of the bridge, you’ll realize that it was Jesus who held your hand the whole way.

I’m headed off to Mass soon, I’ll say a prayer for you.
 
I’ll let you know what i think when i finish reading it.
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Soc4Jesus,

It’s long I haven’t read it all, not even close.

If I may add a thought. Sometimes, trying to find the absolute truth on something can be frustrating. In the end, I think it takes a leap of faith. Sort of like the Gospel, itself. I believe it is the absolute truth, and there is sufficient evidence to prove it I believe, but it takes that leap of faith too, I think. One must will to believe it I guess you could say and I believe God makes this possible. May I suggest, maybe, praying for wisdom, looking at the evidence, reasoning with those here who are fountains of knowledge (as you have been) and when you believe that God is leading you somewhere, take that leap of faith. Don’t agonize:thumbsup: Easier said than done, I know.

Peace,

Nick
 
Socrates4Jesus said:
Agreed. Same question. How can i know the Catholic Church teaches the same truth Peter, Paul, and the others Apostles taught?
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You will need to start at the Bible and then trace the interpretations through the ECF to the present… It is best to do this with particular issues that cause you concern… Like the efficacy of baptism or Apostolic succession. a simple way to do that is to simply go into the Faith section on CAF and look at the Apologetic tracts for those issues. Or the Catholic encyclopedia. You can also use Jurgens Faith of the Early fathers. You can judge for yourself whether they make sense or not. But I beleive that if you fully understand the Catholic teaching and the support of those teachings, you can not help but become Catholic.
 
LionHeart777 said:
Soc4Jesus,

It’s long I haven’t read it all, not even close.

If I may add a thought. Sometimes, trying to find the absolute truth on something can be frustrating. In the end, I think it takes a leap of faith. Sort of like the Gospel, itself. I believe it is the absolute truth, and there is sufficient evidence to prove it I believe, but it takes that leap of faith too, I think. One must will to believe it I guess you could say and I believe God makes this possible. May I suggest, maybe, praying for wisdom, looking at the evidence, reasoning with those here who are fountains of knowledge (as you have been) and when you believe that God is leading you somewhere, take that leap of faith. Don’t agonize:thumbsup: Easier said than done, I know.

Peace,

Nick
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Nick:

Forgive my ignorance, but what exactly is a leap of faith?

🤷
 
paul_c said:
You will need to start at the Bible and then trace the interpretations through the ECF to the present… It is best to do this with particular issues that cause you concern… Like the efficacy of baptism or Apostolic succession. a simple way to do that is to simply go into the Faith section on CAF and look at the Apologetic tracts for those issues. Or the Catholic encyclopedia. You can also use Jurgens Faith of the Early fathers. You can judge for yourself whether they make sense or not. But I beleive that if you fully understand the Catholic teaching and the support of those teachings, you can not help but become Catholic.
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http://www.capmac.org/images/PC-Mac.jpg

Well, i will have an easier time doing this if you will take me by the hand and lead me. We might as well do so with the issue that concerns me at the moment–the infallibility of the Apostolic Successors. Tell me; who was the earliest of the Church Fathers who made such a claim of possessing perfect wisdom?

🤷
 
Andy_III said:
Hi Soc, there has been a lot of activity, it has taken me a while to catch up! It sounds like in the last few posts you might be ready to take some more steps on the bridge. This is where we left off, with you standing on Plank 0.53:

**Plank 0.53: Jesus granted Peter special authority over the other 10 remaining by giving him the additional gift of keys, calling him Rock, and praying for him specifically
**

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:...BMTU1MDAwMTY0Ml5BMl5BanBnXkFtZTYwODI2NDM2._V1.SX321_SY400.jpg
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Not so sure about the rock thing, Andy, but i’m with you on the rest.
 
Andy_III said:
**… **Plank 0.6: Peter could make rules for the Church that would be enforced in Heaven …
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Now wait one cotton-picking minute there! Did you say he made the rules or conveyed the rules?
 
Andy_III said:
… Plank 0.7: Peter used this authority to help the Church grow and work toward its mission
Plank 0.71: The Church grew and flourished, despite tremendous persecution
Plank 0.72: Several of the early Church fathers wrote letters, but most teaching was done in person
Plank 0.75: Peter provided a means by which the high offices of the Church (including his) could be filled
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http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:...I/AAAAAAAAAB0/FS2gYnXcma0/s320/Don+Knotts.bmp

OK, that’s more like it. But be careful what you say, now.
 
Andy_III said:
… Plank 0.8: Any person taking Peter’s office would inherit his authority …
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(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

That’s it! I’m calling for backup! Hello, is this the Protestant National Guard? We’ve got ourselves a situation and i need some reinforcements pronto!
 
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