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Layman
Guest
And as I’ve said to you before, no one is making the argument for Latin as an exclusive transmitter of the Faith. If you keep repeating it it won’t make it any more true.
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Ockham
Guest
“One might say that a church which seeks above all to be attractive would already be on the wrong path, because the Church does not work for itself, does not work to increase its numbers so as to have more power," he answered. "The Church is at the service of Another; it does not serve itself, seeking to be a strong body, but it strives to make the Gospel of Jesus Christ accessible, the great truths, the great powers of love and of reconciliation that come always from the presence of Jesus Christ. In this sense, the Church does not seek to be attractive, but rather to make herself transparent for Jesus Christ.”
Pope Benedict XVI
Read more: nationalpost.com/opinion/columnists/Above+holiness/3565625/story.html#ixzz10LtwCEhJ
“Perhaps the time has come to say farewell to the idea of traditionally Catholic cultures. Maybe we are facing a new and different kind of epoch in the Church’s history, where Christianity will again be characterised more by the mustard seed, where it will exist in small seemingly insignificant groups that nonetheless live an intense struggle against evil and bring good into the world.”
Cardinal Ratzinger
ccr.org.uk/archive/gn0507/g09.htm
Pope Benedict XVI
Read more: nationalpost.com/opinion/columnists/Above+holiness/3565625/story.html#ixzz10LtwCEhJ
“Perhaps the time has come to say farewell to the idea of traditionally Catholic cultures. Maybe we are facing a new and different kind of epoch in the Church’s history, where Christianity will again be characterised more by the mustard seed, where it will exist in small seemingly insignificant groups that nonetheless live an intense struggle against evil and bring good into the world.”
Cardinal Ratzinger
ccr.org.uk/archive/gn0507/g09.htm
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mardukm
Guest
That is a relevant exhortation for this thread. The Filipinos are doing a good thing to make the Gospel of Jesus Christ more accessible by wanting the Mass in the language of the people.
That has no relevance to this thread. Cardinal Ratzinger is simply saying that the Catholic identity of certain nations is disappearing, and the only way for the Church to renew itself is by reacquiring the urgency and missionary spirit of the early Church.
Blessings
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ProVobis
Guest
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ProVobis
Guest
Hasn’t this already been done for 40 years? And are the Filipinos doing the “good thing” or is the Church by giving them a translation?
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Ockham
Guest
Does it follow then that for all the centuries the Mass was exclusively in Latin people were distanced from Jesus?
If everyone is loyal to the Magisterium like we’re told then Latin would be a part of every OF.
What some Filipino Catholics are trying to do is customize the Mass to make it their own. What’s lost on many is the liturgy is not about us. As our Holy Father points out the Church and liturgy are about God. When countries or cultures take the liturgy or Church teaching into their own hands they are on the path to becoming a denomination. Look at Holland’s history the past forty years for evidence.
If everyone is loyal to the Magisterium like we’re told then Latin would be a part of every OF.
What some Filipino Catholics are trying to do is customize the Mass to make it their own. What’s lost on many is the liturgy is not about us. As our Holy Father points out the Church and liturgy are about God. When countries or cultures take the liturgy or Church teaching into their own hands they are on the path to becoming a denomination. Look at Holland’s history the past forty years for evidence.
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mardukm
Guest
Really? The EF has been in the Filipino language for the past 40 years? Do you have any sources to back that up?
Yes, the Filipinos are doing a good thing by wanting the EF in their language. And the Church would be doing a good thing to give it to them.
Blessings
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malphono
Guest
Maybe I missed something, but where does vernacular EF come into this?
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ProVobis
Guest
Where did that come from? We said nothing about the EF. But as long as you brought it up,
Sorry, but the EF stays in Latin:
youtube.com/watch?v=mqnjgg1vNgU
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ConstantineTG
Guest
Is this a typo? The EF is not being translated.
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ConstantineTG
Guest
Thanks! But someone is
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Ockham
Guest
Who?
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ConstantineTG
Guest
Ockham said the Pope prefers a smaller Church (less members, but more faithful). Honestly, I prefer that too. But I don’t think that is the mission of the Church. Jesus did say he came not for the righteous, but for the sinners.
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ConstantineTG
Guest
Its one of the things that spilled over from the other thread. We’ve all been asked to keep the discussions relevant to the topic so I suggest we all comply.
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Ockham
Guest
So you are thread jumping, off topic, and unable to provide evidence to your accusations. Is that correct?
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ConstantineTG
Guest
To get this thread back on track, we should not disregard the culture of a country and the situation the Church there faces. A lot of people don’t realize that how huge the difference is the situation between the Philippines and North America. You have a country thats 80% Catholics that is now dealing with an ever greater Western influence of secularism at moral relativity. Because the Church has been the dominant faith for 400 years, there is greater pressure from anti-Catholic groups to destroy the reputation of the Church and pull out the believers. There is also an increasing presence of Evangelical churches.
To understand the issue of why people would want increased inculturization and participation among the laity is not a simple straight foward understanding of the situation. There is a character ingrained in the culture that calls for that. People want a sense of community because that is who we are. If you live in the Philippines and its your birthday, you don’t throw a party for 10 of your closest friends. You throw a party for your friends, co-workers and your neighbors. A simple birthday party can have in excess of 50-100 people. Its a cultural thing. The same reason when an overseas contract worker who’s about to leave for 6-months to a year for work, gets driven to the airport by 2 busloads of friends and neighbors. Its the way we are. That is why I ask that before criticizing these requests as simple “modernism”, you have to understand the culture because its not what people are looking for. Even pre-V2 Catholicism in the Philippines is vastly different from Catholicism in North America.
To understand the issue of why people would want increased inculturization and participation among the laity is not a simple straight foward understanding of the situation. There is a character ingrained in the culture that calls for that. People want a sense of community because that is who we are. If you live in the Philippines and its your birthday, you don’t throw a party for 10 of your closest friends. You throw a party for your friends, co-workers and your neighbors. A simple birthday party can have in excess of 50-100 people. Its a cultural thing. The same reason when an overseas contract worker who’s about to leave for 6-months to a year for work, gets driven to the airport by 2 busloads of friends and neighbors. Its the way we are. That is why I ask that before criticizing these requests as simple “modernism”, you have to understand the culture because its not what people are looking for. Even pre-V2 Catholicism in the Philippines is vastly different from Catholicism in North America.
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Ockham
Guest
Actually the individual culture of any country is not greater than the Church Jesus Christ founded. If the Philippines can customize the liturgy to their own particular preferences then every other country and culture should be able to do the same. If the priority is the preferences of the people then the focus is no longer on God and the Church will break into thousands of individual denominations. Look at the example of Martin Luther and history of Protestantism for an idea of what can happen.
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Lost_Wanderer
Guest
As a person who actually lives in this country, I have to say what you demand is downright impossible. Take Latin for instance. We may be known internationally for our capability to speak English well but that’s only so far as the educated middle and upper classes go (including myself). However, even there, English is still a second language in my generation. I’m an AB English student of Ateneo (a prestigious university here) yet even now I’m one of the few my classmates run to when they want corrections, definition of terms, and I also have a reputation for being a grammar-nazi. I get pitied by my patriotic, left-leaning Creative Writing professor for being a product of a mentality that sought to destroy our native tongue because I was raised to speak mostly English. He says writers like me are less qualified to write for the masses in this country because we can’t write Bisaya/Tagalog on a literary level. Wonderful. -.-
That pales though to how the ones in poverty see us. To them, being a fluent English speaker is a bloody status symbol (and sometimes an arrogant one at that)! I can’t count how many times I’ve seen in our stupid telenovelas (soap operas) were the rich families are portrayed to be fluent in English or mixing English words and phrases with a socialite flair, ugh…
And now you want to throw Latin into the mess? You want to make the Church here look more elitist?
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Ockham
Guest
The Catholic Church was founded by Jesus Christ two thousand years ago. It is greater than any particular country or culture. It isn’t up to the Church to adapt to a group of people - quite the opposite.
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ConstantineTG
Guest
I don’t think they’re asking for anything more than what the Vatican allows for any other country. Also, changes are needed to keep the fight to keep people in the Church. As I mentioned in my previous post, there is an increasing pressure from anti-Catholic groups not only to destroy the reputation of the Church, but to lure all the members out and into their groups. Should we just do nothing and let them? At the cost of their chance to salvation?
The problem with Martin Luther is the core of what he taught is different from what the Church teaches. No one is trying to change that.
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