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ConstantineTG
Guest
I don’t think there’s a problem with the songs. But the prayers itself I know people would want to keep it in the vernacular.
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archangel04
Guest
The thing about culture, is that it does not remain the same from generation to generation, just ask any sociologist and they will agree. Although most moral and strong traditions do remain part of the culture, still culture is always subject to change. So lets say for example their culture involves use of drum, and yelling out in praise, but what happens when that style of culture changes? Does this mean now the liturgy should be changed in order to suit the new norms? This is why I have such a big problem with western civ especially in this country of ours, we always want to change things how it best suits us, regardless of the consequences. We follow too much our emotions, which also constantly change might I add, but fail to follow logic and faith.
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joeantony
Guest
Hi Constantine,
I completely agree with you. I have a surge of emotions and strong opinion after reading all the “thoughtless” comments by the people who don’t even know that world is so diverse.
I am trying to be extremely patient with all the self proclaimed traditionalists.
Sorry, no offense to any one.
Joe
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joeantony
Guest
Bravo!!! Well said!
Joe
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Ockham
Guest
How do you know people didn’t think before they posted or know the world is diverse?
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ProVobis
Guest
The world has always been diverse. Why make the Catholic church one of competing cultures? Where’s the unity in that?
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joeantony
Guest
I am struggling to get the point… If the church uses Latin as an official langauge in documentation, rest everybody in the world has to pray in Latin???
Why you believe that “Latin” would save the Apostolic Succession??
Enlighten me please!!
Joe
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joeantony
Guest
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Ockham
Guest
Thank you to all those who have voiced their personal opinions as to why the Philippines needs its own unique liturgy. Here’s what Archbishop Jesus Dosado of Ozamis has to say:
*"Looking back, some of the culprits for me for the gradual loss of the true reform of the liturgy were the so-called “liturgists” who were more like technicians and choreographers rather than pure students of liturgy.
They had a peculiar affinity for refined liturgical celebrations coupled with disdain for the old rites and devotions. Unfortunately, some bishops, not pure students of liturgy either, gave in to their terrorist proclivities.
A search for creativity and community were dominant projects in “reform-minded” Catholic circles in the 1960s and beyond. In itself, this might not have been bad. But the philosophy that the community was god, and that “God” was not fully “God” without the community was the source of ideas that have done most damage to the Church
This secular notion of community made its way into the liturgy to gradually supplant the inherited Christian tradition.
These self-appointed arbiters of the reform were, and I hate to say this, liturgical hijackers who deprived ordinary parishioners – and bewildered pastors – of their right to the normative worship of their own Church. Hence, there was the need for a reform of the reform.*
…]
*What is the Pope up to? In the words of Monsignor Guido Marini, “I think what the Holy Father is trying to do is to wisely bring together traditional things with the new, in order to carry out, in letter and spirit, what Vatican II intended, and to do it in such a way that papal liturgies can be exemplary in all aspects. Whoever takes part in, or watches, a papal liturgy should be able to say, “This is the way it should be done. Even in my diocese, in my parish!”
And that is how I would like the direction of the liturgical renewal to take with the Mass to be recast, yes, but in order to remain what it is, Calvary and the Upper Room."*
ucanews.com/2010/09/23/the-liturgical-renewal-i-would-like-to-see/
*"Looking back, some of the culprits for me for the gradual loss of the true reform of the liturgy were the so-called “liturgists” who were more like technicians and choreographers rather than pure students of liturgy.
They had a peculiar affinity for refined liturgical celebrations coupled with disdain for the old rites and devotions. Unfortunately, some bishops, not pure students of liturgy either, gave in to their terrorist proclivities.
A search for creativity and community were dominant projects in “reform-minded” Catholic circles in the 1960s and beyond. In itself, this might not have been bad. But the philosophy that the community was god, and that “God” was not fully “God” without the community was the source of ideas that have done most damage to the Church
This secular notion of community made its way into the liturgy to gradually supplant the inherited Christian tradition.
These self-appointed arbiters of the reform were, and I hate to say this, liturgical hijackers who deprived ordinary parishioners – and bewildered pastors – of their right to the normative worship of their own Church. Hence, there was the need for a reform of the reform.*
…]
*What is the Pope up to? In the words of Monsignor Guido Marini, “I think what the Holy Father is trying to do is to wisely bring together traditional things with the new, in order to carry out, in letter and spirit, what Vatican II intended, and to do it in such a way that papal liturgies can be exemplary in all aspects. Whoever takes part in, or watches, a papal liturgy should be able to say, “This is the way it should be done. Even in my diocese, in my parish!”
And that is how I would like the direction of the liturgical renewal to take with the Mass to be recast, yes, but in order to remain what it is, Calvary and the Upper Room."*
ucanews.com/2010/09/23/the-liturgical-renewal-i-would-like-to-see/
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malphono
Guest
How apropos!
Thanks for the post.:clapping:
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ProVobis
Guest
Non-sequitor. We’re talking about preserving the truth.
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ConstantineTG
Guest
The Catholic Church has always been diverse culturally. I’d hate to bring in Eastern Catholicism again, but that is the greatest proof we have that we are united in faith despite diverse cultures. If they Church never adapted to cultures, we won’t be Roman Catholics. We’d be very Jewish in our faith, as the Apostles were.
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ConstantineTG
Guest
Hi Joe,
Thanks. But I wouldn’t go and say people were thoughtless. Sometimes its not our own fault that we are not exposed to different Catholic cultures around the world. Had I not left the Philippines, I would have expected that Catholicism would have been the same as the Philippines everywhere else in the world. I guess some people just expect that the Catholicism they know is the way it is around the world. We forget that believing in Christ doesn’t require that we change who we are.
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ConstantineTG
Guest
I think this is why we’re having disagreements. I don’t think the intention is for a unique liturgy. What the liturgical committee is asking for isn’t any different that what any other Catholic diocese in the world has.
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ConstantineTG
Guest
If you look in this link there is a picture of a priest blessing children. This is one of the “inculturations” that is already happening in the country. To us it is very important for children to “mano” (a term for blessing by hand, a sign of respect towards elders. Note that culturally the term blessing is used loosely here as “mano” is also received from parents, grandparents, and any person a generation older than the one receiving it.). After Mass children go to priests for the “mano”. Since priests are considered elders regardless of age, even older people would “mano” from the priest.
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Ockham
Guest
Perhaps due to the numerous posts you’ve made on this thread you’ve forgotten the original. Here’s a reminder:
“We are of the persuasion that liturgical renewal, as envisioned by the Constitution on Liturgy of Vatican II, entails liturgical inculturation and that our rich cultural heritage has much to offer to make the Roman liturgy truly Filipino.”
*NATIONAL MEETING OF DIOCESAN DIRECTORS OF LITURGY
SILVER JUBILEE STATEMENT
September 13-16, 2010
Manila
Please compare the OP to the Archbishop of Ozamis letter I provided a link to.*
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Ockham
Guest
Did you read the Archbishop’s letter or just look at a picture the news agency posted on it?
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malphono
Guest
Good point. Even the whole “mano” idea (ref the photo in question) is certainly not unique to one particular culture. A similar practice has been around for ages in the Mediterranean, and I believe it is also referenced in the Old Testament.
In any case, it’s merely para-liturgical at most. Now, OTOH, the statement in the OP was quite to the point of “liturgical inculturation” (see my earlier post about India).
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ConstantineTG
Guest
I am trying to explain the picture and how it plays a part in inculturation. Is what is in the picture a radical shift of liturgy? No. In fact it happens after the priest gives the final blessing of Mass. Little things like this is what is inculturation is all about.
I’m not going to deny there are modernist elements in Philippine Catholicism. But I have faith in our Bishops to preserve the faith. Perhaps the problem here is my intimate knowledge of the Church in the Philippines conflicts with your perceptions of liturgical changes. Because I know what already is different between Catholicism in the Philippines and Catholicism here in North America, that is why my expectations are set differently than yours.
The good Bishop here is doing his due diligence to make sure people understand that nothing radical will change nor we will succumb to modernist movements. But at the same time, I do understand that changes do have to be made to the Church there given the situation today which I am familiar with.
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Ockham
Guest
Perhaps in your exuberance you’ve missed the point of this thread. A group of liturgists got together and decided the liturgy has to incorporate a distinctive cultural style; the country’s bishops disagree taking the position of a universal liturgy. A news agency put a picture on a bishop’s letter and you seem to be more interested in it than his words. How about spending more time thinking and praying before posting?
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