Prolife Saint?

[dkoinzan]

Yes, that’s not a very sound analogy at all. I thought they were going to say “What’s to stop all babies who die after baptism but before the age of reason to be cannonized Saints.” And my reply would be “The more the merrier!”

Does anyone know of a Saint who died as a baptised baby? There’s never been any doubt that baptised babies who die go straight to Heaven.

I like your way of thinking.

 

[Potato1]

Yes, now I wish I had asked AAA specifically if there is any hope for having an unborn Saint. So basically we’ve established that baptism of the unborn is unnecessary. Therefore, the babies go to Heaven if they die before birth. And the definition of a Saint is someone in Heaven.

Interesting that this is what you have taken away from the response. You do not know that the babies go to heaven, the Church Herself does not say that. We are just to pray and hope for the mercy of God to provide a way. What Gods will is on this is not revealed to us at this time, we are just to hope for thier salvation. It keeps us from falling into the sin of dispair. You do not know if the babies go to heaven or not.

One of the dangers I would forsee in having a uinbaptized baby (if that would ever be possible) be a saint is the mistake some would make on the necessity of baptism. It is already an afterthought or social function too much in our society now.

 

[Potato1]

I have a dear friend who just lost a baby in the park while breastfeeding, She had a 2 week old and the baby just stopped moving. While they were waiting for the ambulance, one person was doing CPR on the baby and the Mother was baptising it with a bottle of aquafina. The baby was unresponsive at the hospital and they were able to donate the organs. The point is here that it was an incredible mark of love and faith that the mother’s concern was for this baby’s soul. That is someone who’s faith is strong and who’s love clearly see’s the whole point of being a mother. (to get that child to heaven. That mark of faith, of Christian love and adherence to the commands of God Himself surely is also a mark on the child. There is a saint for you! the mother and the baby.

As for a current saint, for abortion. How about the best one of all… our Blessed Mother. Who was pregnant by someone other than her betrothed in a society that would have her killed for the illigitimacy of the situation. She chose life, and Gods will. Or how about John the babtist. Not only is he a great saint to pray for about the issue of baptism but he recognised and jumped yes for Christ while in the womb. What better saint to pray with than someone who knew Christ while preborn. Even his soul recognized Jesus before he was born.

Jesus Himself wsa baptized, so also popular thought is that Mary was too. Do not discount the power of this sacrament.

 

[CatholicSam]

Jesus Himself wsa baptized, so also popular thought is that Mary was too. Do not discount the power of this sacrament.

Fear not! No one is discounting the power of the Sacrament of Baptism. In fact, that is why we were trying to find out why Baptism of the Unborn is not performed.

As for where miscarried, aborted, and stillborn babies go, we can all be sure that they are waiting for us in Heaven. No more Limbo theories!

 

[Potato1]

As for where miscarried, aborted, and stillborn babies go, we can all be sure that they are waiting for us in Heaven. No more Limbo theories!

this is untrue. Where in the Church does it say that these babies are in heaven. It says we are to hope for thier salvation. Fact is we don’t know the salvific path that would get therem there. that is not to say that they can’t go but just that we would have to leave that to God. please provide proof that these babies are in heaven or do not go around with the supposition that so and so is in heaven and so and so isn’t that is just as erronous as me saying someone is in hell just becaus it think they should be.

 

[dkoinzan]

Potato 1
Maybe you miss my point. I have heald two dead children in my hands who have died before I had the chance to baptize either one. They were not aborted. One Child died in my womb at 31 weeks. All that looked at her knew she was a child. The other died 14 weeks after conception and I have had to tell countless people that he was my son. He had a body and he was not a blob of tissue. Of course I would have baptised both children if I could have. I believe these children are in heaven. PLEASE DON’T BOTHER TO TELL ME I AM WRONG! What I have experienced is what the church would say is private revelation, but I believe they are my Saints. I believe God chooses his Saints. The Church doesn’t choose who gets to be a saint and who doesn’t. I believe it is God who, in his Mercy, allows us to see who he has chosen to elevate through allowing miracles to happen in honor of the Saint. St. Theresa became a Saint because of her humility and smallness. What is more humble and small than an unborn child who has been called a blob of tissue.

 

[CatholicSam]

please provide proof that these babies are in heaven or do not go around with the supposition that so and so is in heaven and so and so isn’t that is just as erronous as me saying someone is in hell just becaus it think they should be.

This is what Michelle Arnold said:

Now that the Church better understands that God is not bound by the sacraments and that he can bestow outside of the sacraments sanctifying grace to those who are innocently incapable of receiving it in any other way, there is no need to try and stretch how baptism may validly be conferred. All that is necessary is that parents do all that they can to have their children baptized within the first few weeks after birth.

This is not the same as judging people’s souls. Babies who died in miscarriage, abortion, or stillbirth did not have the opportunity to be Baptised, and the Church teaches that God does not hold that against them.

 

[Potato1]

This is not the same as judging people’s souls. Babies who died in miscarriage, abortion, or stillbirth did not have the opportunity to be Baptised, and the Church teaches that God does not hold that against them.

YES! now we agree. that statement is true. God may not hold that againt them but it is Gods choice as to how or if they go to heaven. We cannot assume anything here but only pray and hope. If the Church were to come out and say that all aborted babies go to heaven the sin of abortion would be diminished don’t you think. If fact in that case I would wish that I was aborted because then my eternal life would be secured! With God all is possible so that gives us hope. God is also love and mercy and justice so that gives us hope. But God’s view of what is merciful and just could be different from ours. After all he is God. That is why you or I don’t get to judge souls to heaven or hell.

 

[Potato1]

Potato 1
Maybe you miss my point. I have heald two dead children in my hands who have died before I had the chance to baptize either one. They were not aborted. One Child died in my womb at 31 weeks. All that looked at her knew she was a child. The other died 14 weeks after conception and I have had to tell countless people that he was my son. He had a body and he was not a blob of tissue. Of course I would have baptised both children if I could have. I believe these children are in heaven. PLEASE DON’T BOTHER TO TELL ME I AM WRONG! What I have experienced is what the church would say is private revelation, but I believe they are my Saints. I believe God chooses his Saints. The Church doesn’t choose who gets to be a saint and who doesn’t. I believe it is God who, in his Mercy, allows us to see who he has chosen to elevate through allowing miracles to happen in honor of the Saint. St. Theresa became a Saint because of her humility and smallness. What is more humble and small than an unborn child who has been called a blob of tissue.

Truely your emotion here is evident. I cannot tell you you are wrong if yu believe them to be in heaven. But I can tell you you are wrong if you say that the Church lead by God Himself is saying this. Yes God “chooses saints” as you put it as a saint is anyone who is in heaven but the way this is revealed to us is the process of cannonization through the Holy Spirit led Church. There are many saints who are not declared by the Church. But the topic here was "why is there not a patron saint for prolife which has to do with cannonization. St Teresa CHOSE to be small, humble and known for the “little way” babies just are. I’m sure God has a reason why He has not revealed a saint to us, maybe there cannot be one, maybe there is another reason, or maybe you have a better idea than God and his Church here My “private revelation” (code for my beliefe is right and you cannot go against what I think) is that hell is full of more pooor souls than you think.

 

[wanner47]

What about St. Gianna? She gave her life for her unborn child.

 

[CatholicSam]

If the Church were to come out and say that all aborted babies go to heaven the sin of abortion would be diminished don’t you think. If fact in that case I would wish that I was aborted because then my eternal life would be secured!

How is that different from knowing that little baptised babies that die go to Heaven? God is not bound by the sacraments. So therefore, following your argument, we wouldn’t know if they were in Heaven either.

Even now, people can look at baptised babies who died and say “I wish I died when I was a baby, right after baptism, so I would be in Heaven now.” We don’t have to stretch that to abortions.

Wanner47–Great suggestion! While St. Gianna was the mom, not the baby, she was cannonized in part for giving her life for what many in today’s society would call “a blob of tissue”.

 

[dkoinzan]

I don’t think that cannonization of an aborted baby would make the abortion less a sin or less horrid. I would think killing a Saint would be more horrid and more a sin. Murder is murder. Murder of the innocent is the woarst!

 

[dkoinzan]

Who is the Holy Spirit but God? He can divulge an infant saint if he so chooses. He is God. Maybe he already has and we just haven’t heard about it.

 

[Potato1]

How is that different from knowing that little baptised babies that die go to Heaven? God is not bound by the sacraments. So therefore, following your argument, we wouldn’t know if they were in Heaven either.

Even now, people can look at baptised babies who died and say “I wish I died when I was a baby, right after baptism, so I would be in Heaven now.” We don’t have to stretch that to abortions.

Wanner47–Great suggestion! While St. Gianna was the mom, not the baby, she was cannonized in part for giving her life for what many in today’s society would call “a blob of tissue”.

Good point. sometimes my theology is poor when a baby is screaming at me…
Wanner47 that is a great suggestion.

 

[CatholicSam]

Who is the Holy Spirit but God? He can divulge an infant saint if he so chooses. He is God. Maybe he already has and we just haven’t heard about it.

I remember reading that there are 3 kinds of Baptism–Baptism by water (the normal type), Baptism of desire, and Baptism by blood (martyrs). I wonder if there is a martyr who was pregnant at the time of her death? If so, then that baby would also be a martyr in the traditional sense, I believe.

 

[Truly_Beloved]

I wonder if there is a martyr who was pregnant at the time of her death? If so, then that baby would also be a martyr in the traditional sense, I believe.

I think the closest we can get is St. Felicity (who gave birth 2 days before being executed).

catholic.org/saints/saint.php?saint_id=48

I don’t think there are any martyrs who were known to be with child at the time of their deaths. I’m looking, though…

 

[dkoinzan]

The topic was “Is there one declared by the church yet.” I am confident that there are Saints that were not baptized and died before birth. The process for cannonization has change in history. At one time the Church cannonized Saints with a popular vote of the faithful. The time limits have been waived by for some Saints. I know it is possible to have one. I wondered if there was one already.

 

[dkoinzan]

Great suggestion with St. Gianna! If we can’t recognize that the wanted children who die in the womb are not accepted as human life woarthy of heaven, then how are we to tell those that abort children that they are wrong?

If God gives us all a soul, and wants us all in heaven, then it makes no sense to not have an opportunity for a child, who is born after death, without the benefit of baptism, to not be counted among the Saints.

If God is our most perfect Father then of course we would Love us all. If he would allow for the most hardened sinner to get into heaven, and be declared a Saint, he surely wouldn’t turn away the most innocent child. He would never make a soul so that he could abandon it.

 

[homewardbound]

Potato 1
Maybe you miss my point. I have heald two dead children in my hands who have died before I had the chance to baptize either one. They were not aborted. One Child died in my womb at 31 weeks. All that looked at her knew she was a child. The other died 14 weeks after conception and I have had to tell countless people that he was my son. He had a body and he was not a blob of tissue. Of course I would have baptised both children if I could have. I believe these children are in heaven. PLEASE DON’T BOTHER TO TELL ME I AM WRONG! What I have experienced is what the church would say is private revelation, but I believe they are my Saints. I believe God chooses his Saints. The Church doesn’t choose who gets to be a saint and who doesn’t. I believe it is God who, in his Mercy, allows us to see who he has chosen to elevate through allowing miracles to happen in honor of the Saint. St. Theresa became a Saint because of her humility and smallness. What is more humble and small than an unborn child who has been called a blob of tissue.

:hug3: :hug3: :hug3: :hug3:

I am very sorry for your losses. I was almost aborted and then was born at 28 weeks, only by a miracle did I survive. I definitely don’t know the pain you feel but I do understand it and I agree with you. I do not believe God would be so mean to send unbaptized children to hell. If some people want to believe that, thats fine, but my God is a loving God and he would not punish the innocent infants.

I think lots of saints were probably pro life. Definitely some good suggestions in this thread, aside from the bickering.

 

[Potato1]

The topic was “Is there one declared by the church yet.” I am confident that there are Saints that were not baptized and died before birth. The process for cannonization has change in history. At one time the Church cannonized Saints with a popular vote of the faithful. The time limits have been waived by for some Saints. I know it is possible to have one. I wondered if there was one already.

Nope there hasn’t been. With God all things are possible Though your confidence has no basis it is noble!