Promote NFP more honestly!

[Mary_Gail_36]

Jennifer,

We started using billings, when that didn’t work we called the institute, i think it was woomba(sp?). They looked at our chart and couldn’t figure it out and said “you should consider being celibate or just have kids and not worry about it” what part of “medically grave reason, fetus dying, deformity, mothers health ruined” do they not understand, next was STM, again didn’t work, temp tells us nothing, too erratic with wifes meds; and it sill relies on mucus being the primary symptom, temp is only a cross check. If billings doesnt work STM is unlikely, creighton also relies on mucus, though criteria is different, still unable to determine peaks, monitor methods also require mucus checks with monitor as cross ref, so again that doesn’t work.

We switched from Billings to Creighton because of health issues.

Mucus that is present constantly could be indicative of a health issue, it could be low estrogen, a ovarian cyst, low progesterone production.

With Ceighton, they try to fix the underlying problem.

I actually was recently diagnosed with an ovarian cyst. My right ovary has one cyst, and evidence of a few healed cysts. My symptoms were very long mucus patches, and post peak mucus patches.

Creigthon uses the same chart as Billings…maybe someone at Pope Paul can look at your wife’s charts and see what could be causing her erratic symptoms?

 

[Em_in_FL]

O.K. - I’m going to pull out my own personal situation here and call myself abnormal as I have kidney disease and this can lead to differing things occuring with my body. We have tried multiple different ways of NFP and have come to the conclusion that NFP is just not something that will work for us - yes we have been to NFP classes, consultants and even got with “the” Institute- unfortuanately it seems it was always “let’s try this…” unfortunately, the only way we find out if NFP is working (in order to keep from getting pregnant) is if you don’t become pregnant - the way you find out it’s NOT working is if you do become pregnant…

Yup… you’re exactly one of those “special cases” that has taken the steps to try to find answers but is burdened with this cross. I’m sorry you’re struggling. You’d be amazed at how others suffer throughout life in other ways. NONE of our lives is without suffering… and it is hard. I’m sorry this is your particular cross.

But one thing I’m really having trouble with with regards to NFP is that I hear about this wonderful 99% effective rate, but from my acquaintances (people I actually know, not people on here telling me things), esepecially those at many of the parishes we’ve been at (we moved around often)- we constantly hear about friends and couples for whome NFP has NOT worked in order to prevent pregnancy. The response that seems to make some people very mad is that(and again people I know not people I’ve only spoken to on here) - is the response “well I guess God just decided it was time for you to get pregnant” - (these are people who have gone to classes, kept up with the people that taught them, chart and in some cases even get certain types of machines to help them keep up with their fertility and ovulation so there is NO question if they are “unsure” of what their body is doing).
I have to wonder, really how this “effective rate” of NFP is gotten at- I have never seen an NFP study that said “effective rate of those using NFP to prevent pregnancy or space out children” - it’s always just NFP. It also seems to me (again my perception) that many of the comments on here when we’re talking about NFP on here is that if someone doesn’t become pregnant and they’re trying to avoid, then it’s working but at the same time if they’re trying to avoid becoming pregnant and do become pregnant then it’s “all in God’s plan…” - my problem is this, if you really believe that it’s “God’s Plan” (which I have no doubt that He can make happen whatever He wants regardless of NFP or the pill or whatever)- then why even try at times?
I just wish I could feel better about NFP - my best friend was using NFP - religiously and is now wewll along into another pregnancy where she feels NFP failed her and her husband - now she’s to the point of wanting her tubes tied and I honestly can’t blame her. She feels she can’t trust NFP any longer and I understand why she feels this way.

God Bless
Rye

Okay… that response of saying “I guess God just had plans” is coming from those who truly embrace and are OPEN to the possibility of having children… to the point where they probably weren’t following ALL the rules perfectly.

I’ll admit - we fall into that category perfectly! I’m pregnant with #4… earlier this year life seemed pretty overwhelming and we were trying to avoid conception. But, we also know that we eventually wanted more kids (it wasn’t a DIRE situation to avoid, just “overwhelming”)… SO, we broke the rules. All the time. Knowingly. So what? Seriously - our thought was “God won’t give us more than we can handle!”… and we were RIGHT! He doesn’t. We weren’t “using” NFP, we were “breaking the rules” knowingly. It’s amazing how God’s grace can sometimes help you grow in unexpected ways. No, we didn’t “plan” on getting pregnant… but we were knowingly breaking the rules - trusting God.

See? I could act like this is “NFP’s FAULT!”… we WERE avoiding during peak fertility… just skirting in on the edges of the rules a bit. It’s all a matter of perspective in how we talk about it, though. Some don’t want to admit personal failure, so they just say “It’s God’s plan”. I’ll admit it, though… we were breaking the rules.

And… if the situation were truly DIRE (and it HAS been dire in the past) I would be perfectly fine with avoiding as long as it takes… because I trust God to take care of us - fundamentally. LONG TERM abstinence is hard. We’ve been there - done that. It’s a heavy cross.

And even now… when we TRULY put our trust in God - despite having very “just/serious” reasons to avoid due to our “overwhelming” situations… God is helping us grow to make it through. I’m now STRONGER than I was. Life is still overwhelming… I can just handle it (by the grace of God) a lot better. God DOES take care of us.

Is that “NFP’s FAULT”???
No way. We were breaking the rules. Can’t fault effectivity if I’m not doin’ it right!
That’s the very ESSENCE of being “open to life”… TRUSTING GOD… no matter what the circumstances seem to be… no matter how heavy the cross may seem or how overwhelmed you may feel at that moment. God WILL provide when we truly trust Him.

 

[kristacecilia]

Okay, let’s promote NFP honestly.

The Church teaches that all couples have to vow- before God- to accept children lovingly and raise them in the faith.

The Church then teaches that if, after marriage, you discern that you have a grave reason to not have kids- life threatening illness, etc- you may abstain from relations.

If you are willing to accept the "risk* of becoming pregnant, you may use NFP. Because, people, sex = kids. It is written that way in Natural Law.

I don’t care what sort of contraception you use, it could fail. Even a vasectomy or tubal ligation have a failure rate.

If there is a life threatening reason that you CANNOT be pregnant, you have to abstain for the long term. If you are not willing to accept children into your marriage, you are not ready to be married. If you are having sex, you are accepting the risk that you might get pregnant.

Don’t light a firecracker in your hand and then blame the firecracker when it blows off your hand. You accepted the risk.

ALL pregnancies, ALL babies, are planned by God. None of them are “NFP accidents”.

Don’t blame the Church. Don’t blame NFP.

YOU chose marriage. YOU chose to have sex. YOU were accepting the chance of pregnancy.

“If you want space between your kids or if you have a just reason to avoid a pregnancy right now BUT ARE STILL WILLING TO ACCEPT THE CHANCE THAT YOU MIGHT GET PREGNANT, you can abstain during your fertile time and still have relations during your less fertile time, and here are some ways you can help determine those two times of your cycle.”

That is how NFP should be marketed. That is the teaching of the Church. That is what is written in our biology by the Creator itself.

I feel for people who have grave reasons to avoid a pregnancy. I can’t imagine that it is easy to abstain long term. But I can’t imagine it was easy to face being beaten and put to death on a cross, either.

 

[lifeisbeautiful]

As you can see, a “just reason” is a less urgent criterion and it includes the desire to space out births in time.

In the Catechism it says:
“For just reasons, spouses may wish to space the births of their children.”
Thus just reasons are needed to space births, spacing births is not a reason in its own.

 

[Rita77]

yes I agree we need to “promote NFP more Honestly” NFP is not easier to use. you have to be willing to trust God and be open to more (many) children. use NFP for the right reasons your probably going to have a phd in mucus signs and may have had many children alone the way of earning that phd. the sooner you learn it like a phd the sooner you can use it to get spacings between children. NFP is a way of life if you don’t like the openness to life “big family” way of life then I don’t see how you would use NFP stressfree. I know how you feel I was resentful of NFP at first too then I just slowly accepted it and my big family. if you have a serious reason to avoid you can learn nfp better than a doctor I have. I have used mucus only and stm and I agree that stm is easier and works better. I have had to learn it like a obsession its not one I would pick to obsess over but its that or mortal sin. I do what I gotta do to get to heaven.

 

[emmar]

Yup… you’re exactly one of those “special cases” that has taken the steps to try to find answers but is burdened with this cross. I’m sorry you’re struggling. You’d be amazed at how others suffer throughout life in other ways. NONE of our lives is without suffering… and it is hard. I’m sorry this is your particular cross.

Okay… that response of saying “I guess God just had plans” is coming from those who truly embrace and are OPEN to the possibility of having children… to the point where they probably weren’t following ALL the rules perfectly.

I’ll admit - we fall into that category perfectly! I’m pregnant with #4… earlier this year life seemed pretty overwhelming and we were trying to avoid conception. But, we also know that we eventually wanted more kids (it wasn’t a DIRE situation to avoid, just “overwhelming”)… SO, we broke the rules. All the time. Knowingly. So what? Seriously - our thought was “God won’t give us more than we can handle!”… and we were RIGHT! He doesn’t. We weren’t “using” NFP, we were “breaking the rules” knowingly. It’s amazing how God’s grace can sometimes help you grow in unexpected ways. No, we didn’t “plan” on getting pregnant… but we were knowingly breaking the rules - trusting God.

See? I could act like this is “NFP’s FAULT!”… we WERE avoiding during peak fertility… just skirting in on the edges of the rules a bit. It’s all a matter of perspective in how we talk about it, though. Some don’t want to admit personal failure, so they just say “It’s God’s plan”. I’ll admit it, though… we were breaking the rules.

And… if the situation were truly DIRE (and it HAS been dire in the past) I would be perfectly fine with avoiding as long as it takes… because I trust God to take care of us - fundamentally. LONG TERM abstinence is hard. We’ve been there - done that. It’s a heavy cross.

And even now… when we TRULY put our trust in God - despite having very “just/serious” reasons to avoid due to our “overwhelming” situations… God is helping us grow to make it through. I’m now STRONGER than I was. Life is still overwhelming… I can just handle it (by the grace of God) a lot better. God DOES take care of us.

Is that “NFP’s FAULT”???
No way. We were breaking the rules. Can’t fault effectivity if I’m not doin’ it right!
That’s the very ESSENCE of being “open to life”… TRUSTING GOD… no matter what the circumstances seem to be… no matter how heavy the cross may seem or how overwhelmed you may feel at that moment. God WILL provide when we truly trust Him.

I can understand if you knowingly broke or skirted the rules. What I can’t live with is those of use who follow letter to the T and still end up pregnant.

 

[Rita77]

emmar “I can understand if you knowingly broke or skirted the rules. What I can’t live with is those of use who follow letter to the T and still end up pregnant”

yeah me too I’ve gotton pregnant two times and was following it to the T with the mucus only method then I switch to stm and now I’ve gotton a break and understand it so much better.

 

[ryecroft]

Okay, let’s promote NFP honestly.

If there is a life threatening reason that you CANNOT be pregnant, you have to abstain for the long term. If you are not willing to accept children into your marriage, you are not ready to be married. If you are having sex, you are accepting the risk that you might get pregnant.

Don’t light a firecracker in your hand and then blame the firecracker when it blows off your hand. You accepted the risk.

ALL pregnancies, ALL babies, are planned by God. None of them are “NFP accidents”.

Don’t blame the Church. Don’t blame NFP.

YOU chose marriage. YOU chose to have sex. YOU were accepting the chance of pregnancy.

“If you want space between your kids or if you have a just reason to avoid a pregnancy right now BUT ARE STILL WILLING TO ACCEPT THE CHANCE THAT YOU MIGHT GET PREGNANT, you can abstain during your fertile time and still have relations during your less fertile time, and here are some ways you can help determine those two times of your cycle.”

That is how NFP should be marketed. That is the teaching of the Church. That is what is written in our biology by the Creator itself.

I feel for people who have grave reasons to avoid a pregnancy. I can’t imagine that it is easy to abstain long term. But I can’t imagine it was easy to face being beaten and put to death on a cross, either.

I understand what you’re saying and agree with you that nothing is 100% - part of my problem is when we’re told by out Couple to Couple League person and by members of the church that NFP is 99% effective-actually, I believe they say 99.4 or 99.5 - I don’t have the article in front of me -I just can’t believe this to be true - either that or out of the 3 countries I’ve lived in and multiple states I’ve lived in - I only know of 1 couple out of 13 couples we personally know (again not just “heard” about or “gotten to know” on here) - that have used NFP to keep from getting pregnant and succeeded. Only two of these 13 admit to “skirting” the main fertile time - (in other words cutting out the deffinate days and not going the full 10 days off - NFP is great IF you want to become pregnant) - I am seeing some on here that are talking about how “ovarian cysts” confused their charting or are part of the reason they were having trouble - I can quote any number of scientific articles that say that the majority of pre menopausal women WILL have ovarian cysts at one time or another… - (not putting in quotes as I am paraphrasing but can quote from various scientific articles if someone needs to see some proof, but I don’t really think anyone would contend that)- so if women are often going to have problems with ovarian cysts during their child bearing years, then wouldn’t it stand that if ovarian cysts can cause trouble preditcting ovulations (again can site articles) - then doesn’t it stand that most women that use NFP are going to have some problems predicting their ovulation - or getting it right on their charting? And why do I NOT remember this being a big part of what I was taught during ANY of my NFP courses? (we really did try to get this right - and I know close friends who did too) -

What I’m trying to say here is that IF the “success” rates of NFP is really 99%+ then I must have been living in some really, really odd areas where the couples and friends that I know/knew who were using NFP (some even went to the same course(s)-even one of our instructors!)- those “success” rates are either off, “success” is being defined differently than how I’ve learned to define it or I’m just living around some really weird places where NFP for some reason just is not nearly as successful as it’s been touted to be. (let me say I am honestly NOT trying to cause a fight here or tic anyone off, I really would like to know why the stats seem to be so askew from what I and my good friends and family see around us. And I would also like to say that my husband and I desperately want to have a child/children - when I’m better ready to handle it - -when we get the o.k., I have no doubt we may try to use NFP to conceive, but I don’t believe we would ever use NFP to keep from getting pregnant - or count on it solely)
God Bless
Rye

 

[Rita77]

yes I agree we need to “promote NFP more Honestly” NFP is not easier to use. you have to be willing to trust God and be open to more (many) children. use NFP for the right reasons your probably going to have a phd in mucus signs and may have had many children alone the way of earning that phd. the sooner you learn it like a phd the sooner you can use it to get spacings between children. NFP is a way of life if you don’t like the openness to life “big family” way of life then I don’t see how you would use NFP stressfree. I know how you feel I was resentful of NFP at first too then I just slowly accepted it and my big family. if you have a serious reason to avoid you can learn nfp better than a doctor I have. I have used mucus only and stm and I agree that stm is easier and works better. I have had to learn it like a obsession its not one I would pick to obsess over but its that or mortal sin. I do what I gotta do to get to heaven.

 

[Corki]

I agree that for some couples it does take more than 9 days of abstinence if you really need to be safe. I would say 14 days is a more accurate maximum.

Sympto-thermal is the way to go. I have several friends with irregular cycles and fertility problems and they have all been able to use it effectively.

I was going to say that 9 days sounds about right. But we didn’t have a life threatening reason to avoid so weren’t using the most conservative charting. So 14 sounds about right for a more conservative approach.

 

[Rita77]

read “life giving love” by Kimberly Hahn

 

[emmar]

You aren’t alone in this. Couples that practice NFP certainly aren’t typical of the anecdotal testimonals NFP supporters use as their “facts.”

1. Married couples I know using NFP report that is has created a sense of rejection, fear, and resentment in their marriage since sex is almost always accompanied by fear.
2. Men start to hate their wife’s natural cycle, rather than respect it. Women start hating their own bodies.
3. Unless couples already have GREAT communication, NFP usually tears the marriage down, rather than build it up.
4. Effectiveness reported is highly inaccurate. Every couple I know who uses NFP have had more than 1 unplanned pregnancy.

See, NFP is promoted by the church. That’s excellent, but it needs to be reported fairly. It NEEDS to stop being heralded as this “marriage saving birth control.” It’s not. It’s not even effective at avoiding pregnancy for very long. It’s a cross and a suffering and something that will either make a stronger marriage, or rip it to shreds. It needs to be put forward as the yoke and suffering of following Christ’s commands. At least if it is advertised as it IS rather than not being up-front with people and saying it’s this magical wonderful thing, then maybe married couples going into it will have a better chance of shouldering the pain of it. Rather than feeling ashamed and alone in their suffering and worrying that they are doing something wrong, getting mad at each other and destroying their relationship over it, they’ll accept it as the pain and hardship that it is.

Could not agree more!!!

 

[Em_in_FL]

I can understand if you knowingly broke or skirted the rules. What I can’t live with is those of use who follow letter to the T and still end up pregnant.

First off… NO method is 100% effective.
Secondly, if you have “atypical” cycles it is suggested that you work closely with teachers and coaches. If those teachers and coaches can’t help you, its still up to you to find answers through other means. You can’t blame a method based on statistical norms if you don’t fall into those statistical norms.
If the situation is dire, all methods teach that abstinence is the default if the signs are unclear.

Also, how many people in my exact situation of “skirting the rules” would turn around a call it a failure? I’m guessing quite a few will “blame” the method to not loose pride.

 

[emmar]

I guess for those of us with atypical signs, the Church just makes you have a marriage with little to no physical intimacy. The ‘‘glue’’ that helps bond married couples is not there, and you are told to just grin and bear it, offer up the suffering etc…

 

[ryecroft]

I agree that for some couples it does take more than 9 days of abstinence if you really need to be safe. I would say 14 days is a more accurate maximum.

Sympto-thermal is the way to go. I have several friends with irregular cycles and fertility problems and they have all been able to use it effectively.

How do you define “effectively”?

God Bless
Rye

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

I guess for those of us with atypical signs, the Church just makes you have a marriage with little to no physical intimacy. The ‘‘glue’’ that helps bond married couples is not there, and you are told to just grin and bear it, offer up the suffering etc…

Why not see a doctor to find out why you have atypical signs? Maybe there is something physical that can be addressed?

 

[Em_in_FL]

I guess for those of us with atypical signs, the Church just makes you have a marriage with little to no physical intimacy. The ‘‘glue’’ that helps bond married couples is not there, and you are told to just grin and bear it, offer up the suffering etc…

Or… You could work hard to see if there are alternatives. Try other methods, study your butt off, seek medical advice from fertility professionals to try to discern your cycles better, etc, etc.
I did!
It’s not easy, but certainly a place to start.
Also requires A LOT of prayer the entire time.

Or gripe about it.

 

[Warrior1979]

I agree that for some couples it does take more than 9 days of abstinence if you really need to be safe. I would say 14 days is a more accurate maximum.

Are those 9 days inclusive or exclusive of the woman’s period?

 

[Em_in_FL]

Are those 9 days inclusive or exclusive of the woman’s period?

Exclusive.

 

[emmar]

Why not see a doctor to find out why you have atypical signs? Maybe there is something physical that can be addressed?

Dr.'s cannot find anything wrong, nearest NaPro is very far away too