Proof for praying to saints

[Chaldean_Rite]

Sandusky, please read up a little here:

ewtn.com/faith/teachings/maryc4.htm

You WILL completely disagree. However, you’ll know more about the ancient Church and her consistent practices.

****“Woe unto those who rend Sacred Scripture asunder from the God-given Church authority which canonized it! They shall wander in confusion as sons of heresy and their unity forever be shattered unto ever smaller denominations”

****Wow, that is an incredible, even prophetic description of Protestantism. Who said this?

 

[P10]

Who are the twenty-four elders? I don’t know whether they are Saints or not, but, at any rate this doesn’t seem to be an example of prayers to them, but to God.

The 24 elders and the 4 angelic beings (the living creatures) are said to bow down to worship Jesus, recognizing His deity. To facilitate their worship they are said to have harps with which to offer songs of praise (in the next verse they sing), and bowls of incense. John identifies the meaning of the bowls of incense for us so there is no confusion. Consistent with other biblical references to incense, John says that the bowls are full of the prayers of the saints.

So, here we have this heavenly scene, a great liturgical, eucharistic moment in which the 24 elders are worshipping the slain Lamb standing in their midst. We have a window into heaven here. What a wonder! That one essential aspect of heavenly worship is the presentation before Jesus of all the prayers of the believers (saints) on earth. (Note: believers are called ‘saints’ throughout the NT).

So the question is: How did the 24 elders come into possession of all these prayers? How are they even aware of them? We are told that the bowls they hold are full of the prayers of the saints. These prayers are not their own, they are offered to the Lamb on behalf of the saints. The have them collected, ready to offer like incense during the act of adoration and worship. Our Protestant friends seem to think that all these prayers should have been offered directly to God, and should not have been collected, assembled, ordered, purified and held precious by these 24 elders. But then, how do these 24 elders even know of these prayers if (according to some) the saints above have no knowledge, no interest, and no communion with saints below? It is important to acknowledge that these 24 elders are not about to do anything unacceptable in their worship of the Lamb. They are about to offer the prayers of the saints according to the will of God (Thy will be done… as it is in heaven). They know of them, possess them, and offer them because this is the will of God. The saints on earth are aware of God’s will in this matter (‘Thy will be done on earth…’). These prayers were intended to be placed before God in this way. They obviously ‘sent’ these prayers heavenward with the expectation that they would be offered in this way according to the will of God. They asked the Saints to pray for them. That is why I pray with confidence: “Pray for us, O holy Mother of God that we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ.”

 

[Heyyou]

I just have one question, how do you know that the person (saint) you are praying to is actually in heaven and if we have Jesus as our intersessor sitting at the right hand of God, why pray to a saint when we are told to come boldly to the thrown of God with our request and petitions?

 

[Church_Militant]

I just have one question, how do you know that the person (saint) you are praying to is actually in heaven and if we have Jesus as our intercessor sitting at the right hand of God, why pray to a saint when we are told to come boldly to the thrown of God with our request and petitions?

That’s actually two questions Hey…

Anyway, one reason that we Catholics “canonize” certain people as Saints is because the church investigates the fruit of their lives. These are people who led exemplary lives of holiness and loving devotion to God and service to others. Find a copy of Butler’s Lives of the Saints and I think you’ll see what I mean.

I would also suggest a couple of those saints for you to check out. They will be fairly easy because they are modern saints and there’s a lot of info about them.

Maximilian Kolbe and Therese Martin (Therese of Liseaux). I think you’ll find them both pretty cool. They are two favorites of mine.

Now, as to part 2 of your question, I will refer you to some online sources that may help some.

The Intercession & Communion of Saints

The Communion of Saints (An MP3 Bible study)

The Intercession of the Saints (Fathers*)

					[Praying to the Saints](http://www.catholic.com/library/Praying_to_the_Saints.asp)

http://www.catholic.com/library/Praying_to_the_Saints.asp

Saint Worship?

Feel free to contact me if I can help answer anything about these links.

 

[po18guy]

****“Woe unto those who rend Sacred Scripture asunder from the God-given Church authority which canonized it! They shall wander in confusion as sons of heresy and their unity forever be shattered unto ever smaller denominations”

****Wow, that is an incredible, even prophetic description of Protestantism. Who said this?

Unfortunately, I did. Sorry.

 

[P10]

I just have one question, how do you know that the person (saint) you are praying to is actually in heaven and if we have Jesus as our intersessor sitting at the right hand of God, why pray to a saint when we are told to come boldly to the thrown of God with our request and petitions?

The first part of your question is about our certainty concerning the presence of a particular person in heaven. The Church has a process by which it determines this. It is called ‘Canonization’. “By canonizing some of the faithful, i.e., by solemnly proclaiming that they practiced heroic virtue and lived in fidelity to God’s grace, the Church recognizes the power of the Spirit of holiness within her and sustains the hope of believers by proposing the saints to them as models and intercessors.” Catechism 823

Before this proclamation is made a very rigorous investigation is made into the life of the proposed saint, the Church also looks for proof by means of miracles obtained through the intercession of the proposed saint, and finally the Church examines any and all writings of the proposed saint.

No doubt there are many, many more Saints in heaven than the relative few that the Church has named, but this process helps provide assurance to the faithful that particular persons are truly in heaven.

The second part of your one question is a reference to Hebrews 4.14-16 which deals with the High Priestly office of Jesus Christ who has accomplished his great work of salvation and has sat down upon his kingly throne of grace. There He invites us to come for mercy and for grace.

This picture is consistent with that of Rev.5.8 in the previous post. Jesus, the Lamb of God, slain for sinners, receives the worship of heaven. Part of that worship is the presentation of our prayers before him by the 24 elders (the Church triumphant). There is nothing to preclude us from coming to the throne of grace directly ourselves: *“God be merciful to me a sinner.” * Not every prayer offered to Jesus is offered through the intercession of some glorified Saint. Catholics are not limited to one or the other. That is the beauty of having this fullness of faith.

Protestants often ask others to pray for them. One might ask the same question that was put to Catholics above: Why not just go directly to the throne of grace yourself??" Because we all recognize that we don’t pray as well as some others that we respect in the spiritual life. When not using the intercession of others, they pray the best they can to the One who is worthy to receive not only our feeble prayers, but “power and riches and wisdom, and strength and honor and glory and blessing… to him who sits on the throne.”

It may surprise some of our detractors to know that this is the way we pray most often, especially in our liturgies. We do pray individually and personally to Christ, to the best of our ability (thank God it is a throne of grace), and we pray for each other, but we also have the option of imploring a spiritual friend who is already fully alive in the presence of God, one who knows God more intimately, who sees not through a glass darkly but face to face. It is a great privilege to have the assistance of one who can present our purified prayers according to the will of God.

Therefore, it seems to me that the fullness of the Catholic faith provides for more encouragement to come boldly to the throne of grace in order to find mercy and grace to help in time of need.

 

[twb1621]

ISTM, you don’t have any good answers in response to the testimony of the apostles.

Why is it regardless of your issues, you seem to pass over the responses I give you without providing any rebuttal? Is it because you have none? In regard to these questions you ask, you say you were a practicing Catholic at one time but you question as though you never heard of the Faith. If you have a bone of contention to pick with the Catholic Church, why not raise that issue in a thread and deal with that instead of targeting specific people who you think you can manipulate. You might find an answer to your real issues that you didn’t come up with before. If in fact you are a diverted Catholic (as I said there is no such thing as an ex-Catholic) perhaps you can tell us just what God or His Church did to earn such contempt.I believe many here would be willing to try and help.

 

[japhy]

I just have one question, how do you know that the person (saint) you are praying to is actually in heaven and if we have Jesus as our intersessor sitting at the right hand of God, why pray to a saint when we are told to come boldly to the thrown of God with our request and petitions?

We do have confidence that the souls of certain holy men and women are in heaven. And these saints are given to us not only for the benefit of prayer but also as models for our own lives. (And before you ask “Why have Saint So-and-so for a model when you can have Jesus for a model?” please remember that Paul offered himself and others as models for the various churches he wrote to!)

As for “why pray to a saint…” - If you have ever asked another person to pray for you, then you are just as “guilty” as Catholics who ask the saints in heaven to pray for them.

 

[twb1621]

I just have one question, how do you know that the person (saint) you are praying to is actually in heaven and if we have Jesus as our intersessor sitting at the right hand of God, why pray to a saint when we are told to come boldly to the thrown of God with our request and petitions?

The life the person lives in this world and the miraculous events that can be proven to occur through that person after passing to eternal life leads to canonization as a saint, to put it simply. As far as why pray to a saint for intercession with our Lord, the saints in Heaven have earned their place before God and may intercede for us where we are still of this sinful world and have not earned the purification they have. Secondly, the Bible teaches we are all to intercede in prayer for each other as well as with the communion of the saints in heaven.

Eph. 3:14-15- we are all one family (“Catholic”) in heaven and on earth, united together, as children of the Father, through Jesus Christ. Our brothers and sisters who have gone to heaven before us are not a different family. We are one and the same family. This is why, in the Apostles Creed, we profess a belief in the “communion of saints.” There cannot be a “communion” if there is no union. Loving beings, whether on earth or in heaven, are concerned for other beings, and this concern is reflected spiritually through prayers for one another.
Eph. 1:22-23; 5:23-32; Col. 1:18,24 - this family is in Jesus Christ, the head of the body, which is the Church.
1 Cor. 12:12,27; Rom. 12:5; Col. 3:15; Eph. 4:4 - we are the members of the one body of Christ, supernaturally linked together by our partaking of the Eucharist.
Rom. 8:35-39 - therefore, death does not separate the family of God and the love of Christ. We are still united with each other, even beyond death.
Matt. 17:3; Mark 9:4; Luke 9:30 - Jesus converses with “deceased” Moses and Elijah. They are more alive than the saints on earth.
Matt. 22:32; Mark 12:27; Luke 20:38 - God is the God of the living not the dead. The living on earth and in heaven are one family.
Luke 15:7,10 – if the angels and saints experience joy in heaven over our repentance, then they are still connected to us and are aware of our behavior.
John 15:1-6 - Jesus is the vine and we are the branches. The good branches are not cut off at death. They are alive in heaven.
1 Cor. 4:9 – because we can become a spectacle not only to men, but to angels as well, this indicates that angels are aware of our earthly activity. Those in heaven are connected to those on earth.
1 Cor. 12:26 - when one member suffers, all suffer. When one is honored, all rejoice. We are in this together as one family.
1 Cor 13:12; 1 John 3:2 - now we see in a mirror dimly, but in heaven we see face to face. The saints are more alive than we are!
Heb. 12:1: we are surrounded by a great glory cloud (shekinah) of witnesses. The “cloud of witnesses” refers to the saints who are not only watching us from above but cheering us on in our race to heaven.
1 Peter 2:9; Rev. 20:6 - we are a royal family of priests by virtue of baptism. We as priests intercede on behalf of each other.

 

[Peter_J]

Friend, you’re playing word-games; you know, “dead means alive,” and such.

Sandusky, I think you’re trying to throw out the baby with the bathwater.

Yes, “the dead in Christ are not really dead” can become a word-game, but at its heart is a legitimate concept (if you don’t believe me, you might want to talk to some of your fellow Protestants):

Now about the dead rising—have you not read in the book of Moses, in the account of the bush, how God said to him, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
-Mark 12:26-27

P.S. I think the real problem here is that this whole thread has hit a downward spiral.

 

[Peter_J]

Why is it regardless of your issues, you seem to pass over the responses I give you without providing any rebuttal?

Looking at this thread and who’s talking to whom, I would venture to say that sandusky has become so popular lately that he doesn’t have time for the little people like you and me.

 

[sandusky]

Why is it regardless of your issues, you seem to pass over the responses I give you without providing any rebuttal?

Your responses consist mainly of long lists of verses. I’m not going to waste my time going over them with you when you’ll just dismiss what I say anyway.

In the testimony of the prophets and the apostles, the righteous clearly pray to God only.

 

[Realcatholicgk]

Your responses consist mainly of long lists of verses. **
Yea, you should see if you can find one or two to back up what you think. Oh, wait a minute, afe there any? **

I’m not going to waste my time going over them with you when you’ll just dismiss what I say anyway.
I don’t blame you sand, It isn’t like your eternal soul depended on you getting the truth! Oh, wait a minute…

In the testimony of the prophets and the apostles, the righteous clearly pray to God only.
**
What verse is that? That sounds really good. Is any part of it true? what do you mean by “clearly” is that what the verse actually said? Don’t you know that scripture indicates, those in heaven are aware of the prayers of those on earth? For example, in Revelation 5:8, where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of “golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.” Why would God allow them to give Him our prayers if He didn’t want us o pray to the saints? **

 

[Chaldean_Rite]

Unfortunately, I did. Sorry.

Me likie!

 

[po18guy]

Me likie!

Someone in Church history said something similar - it’s just finding it!

 

[sandusky]

Realcatholicgk:
LOL

 

[Ethan_Enoch]

Regardless of who the elders are, Revelation 5:8 and 8:3-4 are clearly speaking of the prayers of all the saints in heaven, which are offered to God upon the heavenly altar:

“And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God.” (Rev 8:3-4)

The Catholic Church teaches that the saints in heaven can offer prayers on the heavenly altar on behalf of those currently living in the physical world:

CCC 956 - “The intercession of the saints. ‘Being more closely united to Christ, those who dwell in heaven fix the whole Church more firmly in holiness. . . . [T]hey do not cease to intercede with the Father for us, as they proffer the merits which they acquired on earth through the one mediator between God and men, Christ Jesus. . . . So by their fraternal concern is our weakness greatly helped.’”

I certainly do not deny that the saints in heaven can and do pray to God for whatever or whomever they want. My question is: why do we think we can pray to them?

And, the Church teaches that we can specifically ask the saints in heaven to pray on our behalf.

If you want to believe that the saints in heaven are isolated from those living in the world, and that they can’t know enough about our current condition to offer prayers of interecession on our behalf, so be it. Catholics disagree with you on this.

You do not need to know someone’s condition in order to pray for them. We pray for people every day whose condition we don’t know. You also don’t need to have someone pray to you in order to know their condition and pray for them. I suppose you pray for souls in purgatory even if you don’t hear them praying to you to do so. So, the saints in heaven may pray for us without our asking them to.

 

[twb1621]

Your responses consist mainly of long lists of verses. I’m not going to waste my time going over them with you when you’ll just dismiss what I say anyway.

In the testimony of the prophets and the apostles, the righteous clearly pray to God only.

yeah, right. I myself have never “dismissed” what you said, **I’ve disproved **what you said. Something you fail to do other than denying fact.

What about the rest of my question, that you didn’t respond to?

 

[twb1621]

In the testimony of the prophets and the apostles, the righteous clearly pray to God only.

I realize your statement is not out of scripture, but this one is;
“Two people went up to the temple area to pray; one was a Pharisee and the other was a tax collector.
The Pharisee took up his position and spoke this prayer to himself, ‘O God, I thank you that I am not like the rest of humanity greedy, dishonest, adulterous or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week, and I pay tithes on my whole income.’ But the tax collector stood off at a distance and would not even raise his eyes to heaven but beat his breast and prayed, ‘O God, be merciful to me a sinner.’ I tell you, the latter went home justified, not the former; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and the one who humbles himself will be exalted.” Gospel (Lk 18:9-14).
Do you recognize this verse?
Had you read those responses you state “consist mainly of long lists of verses” that you say you are “not going to waste my time going over them with you”, you might not have written such a deceiving statement.

 

[twb1621]

I certainly do not deny that the saints in heaven can and do pray to God for whatever or whomever they want. My question is: why do we think we can pray to them?

You do not need to know someone’s condition in order to pray for them. We pray for people every day whose condition we don’t know. You also don’t need to have someone pray to you in order to know their condition and pray for them. I suppose you pray for souls in purgatory even if you don’t hear them praying to you to do so. So, the saints in heaven may pray for us without our asking them to. They MAY, With or without, correct

I am supplying you with verses to respond to your questions because it is what you are ultimately asking. Perhaps you may read them where others ask questions but do not want answers. These are only a few verses that reflect the basis.
Eph. 3:14-15- we are all one family (“Catholic”) in heaven and on earth, united together, as children of the Father, through Jesus Christ. Our brothers and sisters who have gone to heaven before us are not a different family. We are one and the same family. This is why, in the Apostles Creed, we profess a belief in the “communion of saints.” There cannot be a “communion” if there is no union. Loving beings, whether on earth or in heaven, are concerned for other beings, and this concern is reflected spiritually through prayers for one another.
Eph. 1:22-23; 5:23-32; Col. 1:18,24 - this family is in Jesus Christ, the head of the body, which is the Church.
1 Cor. 12:12,27; Rom. 12:5; Col. 3:15; Eph. 4:4 - we are the members of the one body of Christ, supernaturally linked together by our partaking of the Eucharist.
Rom. 8:35-39 - therefore, death does not separate the family of God and the love of Christ. We are still united with each other, even beyond death.
Matt. 17:3; Mark 9:4; Luke 9:30 - Jesus converses with “deceased” Moses and Elijah. They are more alive than the saints on earth.
Matt. 22:32; Mark 12:27; Luke 20:38 - God is the God of the living not the dead. The living on earth and in heaven are one family.
Luke 15:7,10 – if the angels and saints experience joy in heaven over our repentance, then they are still connected to us and are aware of our behavior.
John 15:1-6 - Jesus is the vine and we are the branches. The good branches are not cut off at death. They are alive in heaven.
1 Cor. 4:9 – because we can become a spectacle not only to men, but to angels as well, this indicates that angels are aware of our earthly activity. Those in heaven are connected to those on earth.
1 Cor. 12:26 - when one member suffers, all suffer. When one is honored, all rejoice. We are in this together as one family.
1 Cor 13:12; 1 John 3:2 - now we see in a mirror dimly, but in heaven we see face to face. The saints are more alive than we are!
Heb. 12:1: we are surrounded by a great glory cloud (shekinah) of witnesses. The “cloud of witnesses” refers to the saints who are not only watching us from above but cheering us on in our race to heaven.
1 Peter 2:9; Rev. 20:6 - we are a royal family of priests by virtue of baptism. We as priests intercede on behalf of each other.