Proof for praying to saints

[Ethan_Enoch]

You’re not reading closely enough. They mention either praying to God through the saints, or the saints praying for us:

I don’t have any objection either to us praying to God, or the Saints praying to God. I have an objection to us praying to them.

 

[chefalexander]

I resently read this account in another forum that seems to apply here–From Scripture, an example of a Saint’s intercession.
If it was covered before, I appologize, but I didn’t see it when I scanned the posts earlier.

From John 2, the wedding at Cana–
Mary lets Jesus know that they are out of wine, and at 1st He seems unconcerned.
She tells the people, do whatever He tells you, and He gives them barrels of wine.
ie Mary interceeded for the wedding host/guests in their time of need, and at her behest, Jesus answered that request.

 

[twb1621]

I don’t have any objection either to us praying to God, or the Saints praying to God. I have an objection to us praying to them.

Ok, then what is your objection because it makes no difference that we can not receive communication from them(under normal circumstance) if they can understand our asking for their prayers on our behalf. I think that has been more than established unless you are just holding the position that you don’t believe even though you can not refute it. If that is the case it is a choice on your part, not a error on ours as the CC.

 

[Ethan_Enoch]

with all due respect, all of the information pertaining to Interpretations following here in blue are interpretations from a 2000 year old Church founded by Christ. Unless you can disprove the following with equal authority I don’t see where your refuting them is credible.

Well, it must be a great responsibility for you, speaking for the entire Church. I do not pretend to speak for anyone but myself, a person trying to understand God’s mysteries according to the best of the abilities He’s given me.

Your personal interpretation is wrong. Actually, according to Biblical interpretation, Jesus is expressing the insignificance of their question regarding marriage asserting what is of importance, the fact that because they (the saints) are the ones who will rise: literally, “being sons of the resurrection.” He was supporting the point describing their equality with the angels.

So, the saints are exactly like the angels in every particular?

I think this is your interpretation. However, Again, according to Biblical interpretation, this verse is referring to the heroes of the Old Testament who obtained their recompense only after the saving work of Christ had been accomplished. Thus they already enjoy what Christians who are still struggling do not yet possess in its fullness. In this respect, we are surrounded by them and their support in which case they are very much aware.

Look at your own favored Biblical interpretation:

• As defined by the Church, the souls of the just “see the divine essence* by an intuitive vision and face to face, so that the divine essence is known immediately, showing itself plainly, clearly and openly, and not mediately through any creature” (Denzinger 1000-2). Moreover, the souls of the saints “clearly behold God, one and triune, as He is” (Denzinger 1304-6)

As you can see this is talking about the Saints knowing God, not knowing everything, which is exactly the same as my interpretation.

What it is saying is clear. “But if the Apostles and martyrs while still in the body can
pray for others, at a time when they ought still be solicitous about
themselves, how much more will they do so after their crowns, victories,
and triumphs”. Meaning they undoubtedly will pray for us in Heaven. You can argue this but you would be arguing against St. Jerome.

Well, happily, I’m not arguing against this.

• Of course I agree with the principal it clearly presents although not the misuse of the word “worship”. But don’t fret Ethan, I assure you I will contact the source and have the misuse of the word “worship” corrected to honor which is as it should be. I also intend to recommend the author be held to one full week without ice cream before bed for this error.*

No ice cream before bed! If that’s what penance is like, I’m glad I’m not a Catholic!

Seriously, I agree with Japhy; it would be nice to see the original.

 

[Ethan_Enoch]

Dear, there are "mistakes in the bible…

I don’t want to derail this thread onto Inerrancy, but let me just observe, you have espoused 3 statements:

1. All scripture is inspired by God.
2. No errors were inspired.
3. Scripture has many errors.

I do not see how you can logically hold all three.

Note to my dislexic Protestant friends. No I did not call myself a god at the beginning of the last post! However, I did go to a toga party dressed as a goat once! …

What a relief. I was wondering what you meant by a god with a wailing tag.

What could or would that prove exactly?

My argument is this: if we spiritually pray to people while they are physically alive they cannot hear us, therefore in order for them to be able to spiritually hear us after their physical death, there must be a spiritual change in them. My question is: what is the evidence such a change takes place?

You seemed to be questioning my premise. The experiment I suggested would test it. If the person hears you then my premise is incorrect. If the person does not hear you then my premise is correct; spiritual prayers to the saints on earth are ineffective, and we can move on to my question: why then should we think prayers to the saints in heaven are effective?

I happen to think about people and they will call me or come visit. I might not have thought about them in months etc. I didn’t “pray” but maybe our spirits did communicate.

Maybe. Do you think that is what prayer to the Saints is like?

The Native Americans have a word for it “Calling” You think of someone they will reply.

If you are endorsing Native American spirituality, you are talking to an unlikely convert.

When I was in the war, I felt the prayers of my family. I felt the protection their love provided me.

I definitely believe people have spiritual connections to each other, but not direct spiritual communication. Was your family praying to you?

I will pray to and for you my dear!

Which just goes to show, the saints will pray for us whether we ask them to or not! Thank you. As far as praying to me, I’m honoured but I cannot advise it. I’m afraid I wouldn’t hear your prayer.

 

[P10]

Ethan E.,

Your unease with praying to the Saints seems to boil down to an argument against its reasonableness, and it goes something like this:

1. In order for believers on earth to communicate their wishes/needs to other believers on earth there must exist some kind of medium common to them both (audible words, written type, etc.)
2. As a corollary to this: For believers on earth to communicate their wishes/needs to other believers in heaven there must exist some kind of medium common to them both.
3. According to Scripture, tradition and reason, no such medium exists.
4. Therefore no communication of wishes/needs exists between believers on earth and believers in heaven.

To answer you, one of the first three propositions must be negated and successive Posters have tried each one.

1. So, some have tried to convince you that one of the mediums of communication between earthly believers is a kind of spiritual telepathy. If that could be demonstrated, it would suggest that the same could hold true for communicating with saints in heaven since it does not require a physical medium. You are not convinced by the somewhat scanty anecdotal evidence that such a medium of communication exists between believers.
2. Others have demonstrated that in Christ there is a spiritual connectedness between earthly and heavenly saints. You affirm this connectedness but resist the conclusion that connectedness = the ability to communicate spiritual wishes/needs.

You agree that heavenly beings very certainly communicate with humans in dreams, visions, manifestations of various kinds, through angels, directly by God - and that during some of these revelations the human being communicates in return. However, you argue that in none of these instances was the heavenly being also a human being (apart from Christ himself), as if to say that glorified human beings are less capable of this kind of communication than angels? Or are you suggesting that in communicating our needs to Christ are we not addressing him in his glorified humanity as well as his deity? Or are you arguing that glorified believers cannot and do not share this particular attribute with Christ’s glorified humanity?

1. In responding to pt. 3, still others have taken the historical/tradition approach and have shown how communicating with saints in heaven was the common belief of early Christians in the catacombs. You seemed open to the argument that if the early church believed it, you should too.

Some have tried to convince you that Scripture, tradition, and reason are not the ultimate arbiters in this debate. Unfortunately, it may be fruitless to offer the ‘authority of the Church’ argument, since if you could be convinced by that argument you would already be Catholic. Nevertheless, the Church has always maintained that human beings on earth have the ability to communicate their wishes/desires to glorified human beings in heaven.

No arguments as to the reasonableness of praying to the saints has succeeded with you so far. It may be that you will have to believe in order to understand, rather than the reverse.

Besides, I don’t think the onus is on the Church to defend the practice of praying to the saints. I think the onus is on those who wish to change the common belief and practice of the faithful.

It should be you who are obliged to find where in Scripture there is a prohibition against it.
It should be on you to cite the Apostolic, Ante-Nicene and Nicene Fathers showing where in the tradition there are cautions against it.
And ultimately, to turn your main argument back on you: The onus is on you to show that praying to the saints is unreasonable. I don’t think you’ve done that.

 

[Realcatholicgk]

I don’t want to derail this thread onto Inerrancy, but let me just observe, you have espoused 3 statements:

1. All scripture is inspired by God.
2. No errors were inspired.
3. Scripture has many errors.

I do not see how you can logically hold all three.

Let me type slower for you. The Thoughts were inspired! The individual words were written and copied and copied again and again. They THE WORDS may have errors. The Humans said things and since there were many authors over many years 5,000+/- they had and did made errors. contrictions etc.

Let me give you an example f what I mean OK?

"Jsues wnats evrenoye to raneapet tiher snis "

What a relief. I was wondering what you meant by a god with a wailing tag.

My argument is this: if we spiritually pray to people while they are physically alive they cannot hear us,

My arebuttle is this: You can’t prove that!

therefore in order for them to be able to spiritually hear us after their physical death, there must be a spiritual change in them.

** Not really. I rather think there had to be a “physical” change in them. They "lost "their Body!! Let me give you an analogue, but remember an analogue is not the same thing as the same thing!

Lets say we were in two different buildings talking . “If” I talked loud enough you “might” hear me. Now if I physically left the building** you might “hear” me better. Now if we used a Telephone (Prayer) Hey, its my analogue! I’ll use what I want! If we used the telephone you could hear me loud and clear. Seriously if the building (Body) was reboved I could come closer to you even into your Building (Body) Understand where I am coming from?

**It must really be hard being Protestant . Do you guys need everything proved to you? About everything? You realize that isn’t going to happen with God dear, Too many “mysteries” and If God was simple enough for us to understand HimIi don’t think he would be God anymore would He? That is why Sola Scriptura fails, If you need to interpret it “yourself”, you are listening to yourself. There is a medical term for that I am sure. **

[SIGN] Faith is to believe what you do not see; the reward of this faith is to see what you believe. Saint Augustine

Seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. Saint Augustine

If you believe what you like in the gospels, and reject what you don’t like, it is not the gospel you believe, but yourself.” Saint Augustine [/SIGN]

My question is: what is the evidence such a change takes place?

My answer is: The body starts to stink?
**One page of Two **

 

[Realcatholicgk]

Two of Two:

You seemed to be questioning my premise. The experiment I suggested would test it.

**
I your mind only sweetheart. Actually they have conducted scientific tests since WWII started by the Germans. People call it ESP, ever hear of it? Read up on it.
Our bodys have many distractions. Things “moving”, gases flowing, (Sorry I already went there!), other outside influences. Now when the body is removed. The soul can “hear” better don’t you think?**

If the person hears you then my premise is incorrect. If the person does not hear you then my premise is correct; spiritual prayers to the saints on earth are ineffective, and we can move on to my question: why then should we think prayers to the saints in heaven are effective?

**I think I have a better quicker way perhaps. lets try anyway. My head is hurting! :banghead:
Pray to a saint for a miracle,any saint! If the Miracle happens and is “confirmed” I mean examined and torn apart and exmined, reviewed and examined again. That might prove that the pray worked. May not., correct? Now if someone else prays to the same saint or a Miracal and it happens again. In that case prayer would have to “work” agreed? I mean a real “Miracle.” Two 100%, only by the hand of God type “Miracles”. Unexplainable by any other means know to man. OK?

Now if that happened would you agree that you can pray to saints and they can hear you?

I ask that because maybe you don’t know it, but the only way someone can be made a Saint is exactly bu that means. Two verifiabled Miracles must occur. No matter how nice or good a person was even someone like “Mother Teresa” If not two miracles no saint . She has one attributed to her. I loved the woman (She was and will become a Saint!) Uglyer than sin, but a very holy person! **
[SIGN]
“The thing that makes me the saddest is watching people receive communion in the hand.” – Blessed Mother Teresa of Calcutta (As reported by Fr. George Rutler in 1989 when he asked her, “What do you think is the worst problem in the world today?” )[/SIGN]

The real church is 2,000 yearts old how many saints do we have? they were all by at least two miracles. The Blessed Mother has Thousands of Miracles to her credit!

Maybe. Do you think that is what prayer to the Saints is like?

Communicating? Yes I would think that is what prayer is like!

If you are endorsing Native American spirituality, you are talking to an unlikely convert.

**Many Apaches are Mormons (Think Utal ) Many more Indians are Baptist (They have this convert the natives thing going, earns them browney points with god maybe) Vast majarity of Indians are Catholic: Thinks monks, missions, wild west. They respect the earth, They believed in One God over 3,000 years ago or more. They know that we are all related. God worrries about ants, flies, mosquitos. (Memo to self: Remember to talk to God about the reason for mosquitos)

**

I definitely believe people have spiritual connections to each other, but not direct spiritual communication. Was your family praying to you?

No, but maybe my spirit heard their prayers?

Which just goes to show, the saints will pray for us whether we ask them to or not! Thank you. As far as praying to me, I’m honoured but I cannot advise it. I’m afraid I wouldn’t hear your prayer.

That’s OK darling, maybe your spirit will and give you a warm feeling! One thing for sure It won;'t hurt!

 

[Realcatholicgk]

&C…&C…&C And ultimately, to turn your main argument back on you: The onus is on you to show that praying to the saints is unreasonable. I don’t think you’ve done that.

**
Hi, P10.:tiphat:
I darn sure couldn’t have said it better. Funny thing is we both said the same things in different ways. I hope she reads and finally lets Faith guide her. She will be fun when we attempt to get her to believe in the Eucharist. Gnawing on the Body of Christ!

God Bless!

**

 

[twb1621]

Well, it must be a great responsibility for you, speaking for the entire Church. I do not pretend to speak for anyone but myself, a person trying to understand God’s mysteries according to the best of the abilities He’s given me.
I don’t speak for the Church, the Church interprets for our salvation. I have more belief in their interpretation than any one individual who does it on his own.

So, the saints are exactly like the angels in every particular?
I go by what is attested to by the CC and it is believeable and reasonable, athough we are suppose to have faith were reason does not provide evidence.

Look at your own favored Biblical interpretation:

of course. And then some.

As you can see this is talking about the Saints knowing God, not knowing everything, which is exactly the same as my interpretation.
You read as you need it to be.

Well, happily, I’m not arguing against this.

ok

No ice cream before bed! If that’s what penance is like, I’m glad I’m not a Catholic!

Well, I don’t think God will consider this misuse of the word a “hanging offense” considering the understanding is correct.
Seriously, I agree with Japhy; it would be nice to see the original.

I’m sorry, I don’t know what Japhy said, I missed that.See the original what?

 

[BMSODM]

“And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four [and] twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.” - Revelations 5:8

“Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what [is] the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to [the will of] God.” - Romans 8:26-27

People ask people to “pray for me” all the time. Why not ask the Virgin Mary or any other saint to “pray for you?” Just because they are no longer “of this world” does not mean they don’t “talk” to God. The saints in heaven are not “separated” by death from the community of the Church (Romans 8:38-39) as we are all one Body in Christ (Romans 12:5; 1 Corinthians 12:12) and Christ “abolished death” (2 Timothy 1:10 ). Therefore, the saints in Heaven can pray for us just as anyone here on Earth can. In fact, better, as they are presently in His Presence. The Virgin Mary asking God to help you should “carry more weight” so to speak than having your best friend on this earth praying for you. In fact, Christ’s first public miracle was performed upon the “intercession” of His own mother (John 2:2-11).
In regards to the use of the relics of the saints, this is deeply rooted in Scripture (Acts 19:11-12).

Below is a prayer to St. Joseph that dates back to 50 A.D. - long before the last Apostle had died and less than 20 years after the death of Christ. If the early Christians asked the “dead” foster father of Christ to intercede for them and it was “wrong,” why is there no “documentation” from the Twelve Apostles “reprimanding” them for this? Surely, the Apostles would have corrected the early Church had It been in err?

O St. Joseph whose protection is so great, so strong, so prompt before the Throne of God, I place in you all my interests and desires.
O St. Joseph do assist me by your powerful intercession and obtain for me from your Divine Son all spiritual blessings through Jesus Christ, Our Lord; so that having engaged here below your Heavenly power I may offer my Thanksgiving and Homage to the most Loving of Fathers.
O St. Joseph I never weary contemplating you and Jesus asleep in your arms. I dare not approach while He reposes near your heart. Press him in my name and kiss His fine Head for me, and ask Him to return the Kiss when I draw my dying breath.
St. Joseph, Patron of departing souls, pray for us. Amen.

"Do not weep, for I shall be more useful to you after my death and I shall help you then more effectively than during my life." [St. Dominic, dying, to his brothers.]

Peace unto you all

 

[Peter_J]

I don’t have any objection either to us praying to God, or the Saints praying to God. I have an objection to us praying to them.

Ethan,

Don’t be scared off from pray to the saints because “The early church didn’t do that.”

The truth is that the early church did do that, they just didn’t call it that. We nowadays (following the example of St. Thomas Aquinas) call it “praying to the saints”.

Or consider the Eastern Orthodox: they don’t really do anything different than us Catholics do with regard to invoking the saints (“Saint So-and-So, pray for us”) but they general don’t use the term “praying to the saints”. (I guess you could say they’re very old-school in that regard. )

 

[rocketrob]

Ethan Enoch,
Usually your responses are well thought out, and participants on the forum have indicated that they appreciate that. However, the following statement was a little unfair in my opinion:

Well, it must be a great responsibility for you, speaking for the entire Church. I do not pretend to speak for anyone but myself, a person trying to understand God’s mysteries according to the best of the abilities He’s given me.

Ethan Enoch, the Church speaks for itself, as does God in both His natural and supernatural revelation to us. The posters on this thread, for the most part, are just sincerely trying to communicate to you what the Church has always taught on this subject. If you are sincere about knowing what the Church actually teaches, read the Catechism. (You obviously already read Scripture.) The Catechism is easy to reference, right here:

usccb.org/catechism/text/

One day, you may realize what an asset it is to have 2,000 years of Church teaching, and the thoughts of the greatest Christian minds that have ever lived (some of whom knew Jesus Himself), at your disposal. We are not meant to understand the Christian Faith alone, or in a vacuum of isolation. In fact, such an accomplishment would be impossible.

And yes, you are correct, being a Christian carries with it a great amount of responsibility…both in living a life based on Truth, and in accurately communicating that Truth to others both in words and example.

My argument is this: if we spiritually pray to people while they are physically alive they cannot hear us, therefore in order for them to be able to spiritually hear us after their physical death, there must be a spiritual change in them. My question is: what is the evidence such a change takes place?

This argument just doesn’t make sense. Based on your knowledge of Scripture, you surely realize that Spiritual transformations take place, even among the living. Even protestant faith traditions recognize the spiritual transformations as a result of baptism and confirmation. And a spiritual transformation definitely takes place, and must take place, as we enter the beatific vision of God.

Ethan Enoch, you are souding a little like the Apostle Thomas. You are basing you arguments on a lack of physical evidence. “Jesus saith to him: Because thou hast seen me, Thomas, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and have believed.” (John 20:29)

I agree with a prior poster who said the burden is on you to disprove 2000 years of accepted teaching. Catholics are not required to ask Saints for intercession. But this practice is not contradictory of Scripture. If it was, the Catholic Church would prohibit it.

rocketrob

 

[P10]

Ethan Enoch,

I agree with a prior poster who said the burden is on you to disprove 2000 years of accepted teaching. Catholics are not required to ask Saints for intercession. But this practice is not contradictory of Scripture. If it was, the Catholic Church would prohibit it.

rocketrob

Ethan E,
Just to follow up on that thought… When you take up the burden of proof that is yours and you begin your research to show that the Fathers forbid this practice, you may want to watch for any great controversy that erupted when this practice was first discovered and then condemned by the apostolic Church. Certainly that is the case with other practices in those early days of Christianity when the infant Church was careful to expunge wrong thinking and wrong practice.

However, (I am now using the argument from silence), since there is no voice raised against praying to the saints and there is no controversy in the ancient Catholic Church on this issue, it is reasonable to suggest to you that praying to the saints has, at the very least, their tacit approval.

I am only trying this argument for your sake since you seemed genuinely moved by an earlier poster who, using the historical approach, provided you with the quotes from the catacombs. While the argument from silence is not one that carries a lot of weight, perhaps it is enough to tip the balance in helping you to see the reasonableness of the Catholic position.

 

[Ethan_Enoch]

Ethan E.,

Your unease with praying to the Saints seems to boil down to an argument against its reasonableness, and it goes something like this:

1. In order for believers on earth to communicate their wishes/needs to other believers on earth there must exist some kind of medium common to them both (audible words, written type, etc.)
2. As a corollary to this: For believers on earth to communicate their wishes/needs to other believers in heaven there must exist some kind of medium common to them both.
3. According to Scripture, tradition and reason, no such medium exists.
4. Therefore no communication of wishes/needs exists between believers on earth and believers in heaven.

Right. You have summed up my argument far more cogently then I could. Thank you.

*To answer you, one of the first three propositions must be negated and successive Posters have tried each one.

1. So, some have tried to convince you that one of the mediums of communication between earthly believers is a kind of spiritual telepathy. If that could be demonstrated, it would suggest that the same could hold true for communicating with saints in heaven since it does not require a physical medium. You are not convinced by the somewhat scanty anecdotal evidence that such a medium of communication exists between believers.

As far as I understand this spiritual telepathy is the medium by which it is thought we communicate with the Saints. If so, it must certainly be acquired after physical death, or else, if it were as reliable there as it is here, we could have absolutely no confidence that they would hear us.

2. Others have demonstrated that in Christ there is a spiritual connectedness between earthly and heavenly saints. You affirm this connectedness but resist the conclusion that connectedness = the ability to communicate spiritual wishes/needs.

Exactly. I do not believe that the spiritual communion of the saints is at all altered by physical death.

You agree that heavenly beings very certainly communicate with humans in dreams, visions, manifestations of various kinds, through angels, directly by God - and that during some of these revelations the human being communicates in return. However, you argue that in none of these instances was the heavenly being also a human being (apart from Christ himself), as if to say that glorified human beings are less capable of this kind of communication than angels? Or are you suggesting that in communicating our needs to Christ are we not addressing him in his glorified humanity as well as his deity? Or are you arguing that glorified believers cannot and do not share this particular attribute with Christ’s glorified humanity?

That is a very interesting question. I am not sure; the complete humanity & divinity of Christ is difficult for me to understand and apply. I do have a couple of thoughts. First, the glorification of the saints is not complete until bodily resurrection. Christ has already been raised, in contrast to everyone else. Second, even while He was on earth Jesus was able to know everyone’s thoughts. Was that just part of His divinity, or was that part of His humanity that no one else shared?

*3. In responding to pt. 3, still others have taken the historical/tradition approach and have shown how communicating with saints in heaven was the common belief of early Christians in the catacombs. You seemed open to the argument that if the early church believed it, you should too.
*

I certainly do think that Christian tradition is a rule of faith. What Christians have historically believed should inform our own faith. The early churches however did certainly have some false teaching and incorrect religion, see the first few chapters of Revelation.

Some have tried to convince you that Scripture, tradition, and reason are not the ultimate arbiters in this debate. Unfortunately, it may be fruitless to offer the ‘authority of the Church’ argument, since if you could be convinced by that argument you would already be Catholic. Nevertheless, the Church has always maintained that human beings on earth have the ability to communicate their wishes/desires to glorified human beings in heaven.

Do you know what was the first council to say so? I believe that they affirmed this at Trent, but I don’t know whether any did before.

Besides, I don’t think the onus is on the Church to defend the practice of praying to the saints. I think the onus is on those who wish to change the common belief and practice of the faithful.

I don’t think so. People should be able to defend their own beliefs. I believe that God is able to hear our prayers. We can know this from 1 John 5:14-15,

“And this is the confidence which we have towards him: That, whatsoever we shall ask according to his will, he heareth us. And we know that he heareth us whatsoever we ask: we know that we have the petitions which we request of him.”

This is John the Apostle. There is neither any Apostolic quote nor, as far as I’ve seen, any Patristic quote that says a similar thing about praying to the saints.

 

[Ethan_Enoch]

Let me type slower for you. The Thoughts were inspired! The individual words were written and copied and copied again and again. They THE WORDS may have errors. The Humans said things and since there were many authors over many years 5,000+/- they had and did made errors. contrictions etc.

Alright, you think:

1. All Scripture is inspired.
2. No errors are inspired.
3. The words (of Scripture) have many errors.

So, logically you must think that the words of Scripture ≠ Scripture. So when they read the words of Scripture in church, they’re not actually reading Scripture.

***Let me give you an example f what I mean OK?

"Jsues wnats evrenoye to raneapet tiher snis "***

So you think the errors in Scripture are like spelling errors? I thought you said earlier that lot’s of things in the Bible aren’t true. What kind of errors are you talking about?

Actually they have conducted scientific tests since WWII started by the Germans. People call it ESP, ever hear of it? Read up on it.
Our bodys have many distractions. Things “moving”, gases flowing, (Sorry I already went there!), other outside influences. Now when the body is removed. The soul can “hear” better don’t you think?

So, you think you communicate to the saints with ESP?

***Hi, P10.
I darn sure couldn’t have said it better. Funny thing is we both said the same things in different ways. I hope she reads and finally lets Faith guide her. She will be fun when we attempt to get her to believe in the Eucharist. Gnawing on the Body of Christ!

God Bless!

---

Just FYI, if you are referring to me you are using the pronoun of the wrong gender.

 

[twb1621]

Right. You have summed up my argument far more cogently then I could. Thank you.

As far as I understand this spiritual telepathy is the medium by which it is thought we communicate with the Saints. If so, it must certainly be acquired after physical death, or else, if it were as reliable there as it is here, we could have absolutely no confidence that they would hear us.

Exactly. I do not believe that the spiritual communion of the saints is at all altered by physical death.

That is a very interesting question. I am not sure; the complete humanity & divinity of Christ is difficult for me to understand and apply. I do have a couple of thoughts. First, the glorification of the saints is not complete until bodily resurrection. Christ has already been raised, in contrast to everyone else. Second, even while He was on earth Jesus was able to know everyone’s thoughts. Was that just part of His divinity, or was that part of His humanity that no one else shared?

I certainly do think that Christian tradition is a rule of faith. What Christians have historically believed should inform our own faith. The early churches however did certainly have some false teaching and incorrect religion, see the first few chapters of Revelation.

Do you know what was the first council to say so? I believe that they affirmed this at Trent, but I don’t know whether any did before.

I don’t think so. People should be able to defend their own beliefs. I believe that God is able to hear our prayers. We can know this from 1 John 5:14-15,

“And this is the confidence which we have towards him: That, whatsoever we shall ask according to his will, he heareth us. And we know that he heareth us whatsoever we ask: we know that we have the petitions which we request of him.”

This is John the Apostle. There is neither any Apostolic quote nor, as far as I’ve seen, any Patristic quote that says a similar thing about praying to the saints.

Ethan, I am sure in your stating your issues you do not realize it this way but in your rebuttals you are actually presenting the stand most times that “if it (whatever it is) does not make rational or common sense or is not logical to you, it is not real or can not be”. Do you really feel this way? If so you are taking a position of closed mindedness as though regardless of whether it is in Heaven or Earth and regardless that it involves the powers of our Lord, if you do not comprehend it, it is not so. You have nothing of substance or credibility to deny these things but refuse consideration to a point of sarcasm at times just to voice a rebuttal. Do you truly understand what faith requires and if so what can you possibly have faith in that hasn’t provided you with logical proof AND WHY? Praying to the saints does not bring with it any confirmation that they hear us, it is a matter of faith and belief in what we understand of God. Let me point one thing out to you. Regardless of the subject matter, where proof exists, faith has no merit, because faith is the believing in something or someone without proof or guarantee. Even in a court of law, circumstantial evidence can at times lead to a just decision without physical proof. Consider this. If in fact praying to the saints is wrong, in what way does it benefit Satan? If the Church were lying it would only condemn the deceitful within the church for misleading the sheep, not those who believing they are doing what is right in God following that direction. And if it is a matter of “maybe they will intercede or maybe they can’t hear us after all”, what’s the harm. If they hear us they intercede and if they don’t hear us at least we tried. Better to try, wouldn’t you say? Your argument has no logic.
one last question here, do you know what the rosary is and if so do you acknowledge the rosary as a legitimate form of prayer or stand against its use?

 

[freshwater]

** This has been very informative for me , to read all here .Thank you all . Blessings to you ,freshwater **

 

[BMSODM]

To all with question’s

Sometimes when we lean on our own understanding we can handcuff our wisdom that will produce pure knowledge. But even if we lean on it in this case it still can produce. Let me explain something.

1. Why are we told to love one another as the second greatest commandment? If only to forget about one another as soon as we go to heaven.
2. Why are we taught to pray for one another in this life? If only to not pray for one another in heaven.

We have these saints who devoted there lives to pray for and love one another in an almost perfect way. No one can deny these souls were some of the holiest of holy that walked the earth. If you read these lives, diary’s and bio’s you will see there were three common factors in each and every one. They all had a special love for the passion of Christ, the Eucharist, and the Love for the Blessed Mother. And they all devoted there lives to loving one another in a heavenly way. They devoted there lives to praying for one another and helping one another. Now let me ask you this, Why? Why, live a life that has taught them to become the most holiest and the most in the image of Christ to only be set aside when they get to heaven?

We need to remember, its Christ in them that has made them good. Its not of there own. So when someone goes through them with a pray or something they are in fact going through Christ. Jesus is the only way to the Father but were in scripture does it say that there is only one way to Jesus?

To venerate isn’t the same as worship. Your confusing the two, I know this because I was were you are at…

Peace and blessings****

 

[Ethan_Enoch]

Ethan, I am sure in your stating your issues you do not realize it this way but in your rebuttals you are actually presenting the stand most times that “if it (whatever it is) does not make rational or common sense or is not logical to you, it is not real or can not be”. Do you really feel this way?

No. I am not the ultimate arbiter of reason; just because I find something unreasonable doesn’t mean it is. Even so reason and logic cannot prove every truth to be true, I don’t believe, however, that truth is ever contrary to reason, that is if reason proves something false it cannot be true. This is very difficult to do, and I don’t think I’ve absolutely proved that the saints can’t hear our prayers, though you have certainly not proved that they can.

From my perspective the burden of proof is on you since you are arguing for a change in the status quo. I’m arguing that the spiritual communion of the saints probably is not altered by physical death, you are arguing that it is, so you should be the one providing evidence to support your claim.

If you choose to believe it without conclusive evidence you have the right to do so, but you should not demand that others follow you in that.

If so you are taking a position of closed mindedness as though regardless of whether it is in Heaven or Earth and regardless that it involves the powers of our Lord, if you do not comprehend it, it is not so.

I believe many things that I do not comprehend, in fact I would have to say that I probably do not truly comprehend anything. If the Bible says something is true, I believe whether or not I can comprehend it. I am not at that point with the Catholic Magesterium.

You have nothing of substance or credibility to deny these things but refuse consideration to a point of sarcasm at times just to voice a rebuttal.

I am sorry I haven’t been able to say anything you find substantial or credible. I have tried to consider every point you all have offered. From you, Tom, they have seemed to be a lot of very interesting Apostolic and Patristic quotes with which I for the most part agree and which do not directly comment on whether we can communicate spiritually with the saints. You did offer some anonymous epitaphs from around the fourth century which indicate that some Christians at that time practiced praying to or invoking the saints. I admitted that this supports your position but I don’t think it’s conclusive.

I have not intentionally been at all sarcastic. I am sorry if I seemed that way; all of my questions were meant sincerely. I’m trying to better understand what you believe, not make fun of you. I will try in the future to be more careful with my phrasing so as to make my intentions clearer.

Regardless of the subject matter, where proof exists, faith has no merit, because faith is the believing in something or someone without proof or guarantee. Even in a court of law, circumstantial evidence can at times lead to a just decision without physical proof.

I have faith in Apostolic authority. I don’t think I need to have faith in popular traditions which are endorsed neither by the Apostles nor the fathers.

Consider this. If in fact praying to the saints is wrong, in what way does it benefit Satan? If the Church were lying it would only condemn the deceitful within the church for misleading the sheep, not those who believing they are doing what is right in God following that direction. And if it is a matter of “maybe they will intercede or maybe they can’t hear us after all”, what’s the harm. If they hear us they intercede and if they don’t hear us at least we tried. Better to try, wouldn’t you say? Your argument has no logic.

According to this argument one might say, “well, maybe I will find the Holy Grail, maybe I won’t, may as well try”, and then spend his life in a fruitless search. Why would we spend our time doing something we have no confidence in, instead of things which we know by faith are profitable, like praying to God, or doing good works?

one last question here, do you know what the rosary is and if so do you acknowledge the rosary as a legitimate form of prayer or stand against its use?

Hey, that’s two questions! #1 Yes. #2 I wouldn’t reccomend it.

Anyway, I really have to write a couple of big papers here, so I probably won’t be back for a few days. I do want to say thank you to everyone who took the time to respond to me. You all have really made me think about all this.

God bless you all, and pray for me.