Proof for praying to saints

[twb1621]

No. I am not the ultimate arbiter of reason; just because I find something unreasonable doesn’t mean it is. Even so reason and logic cannot prove every truth to be true, I don’t believe, however, that truth is ever contrary to reason, that is if reason proves something false it cannot be true. This is very difficult to do, and I don’t think I’ve absolutely proved that the saints can’t hear our prayers, though you have certainly not proved that they can.
First let me say I appreciate your honest replies and I also learn understanding from them regardless of our positions. My point was in fact aside from the verses in scripture that pertain to praying to those in God, it is a matter of faith no differently than believing the gospels are inspired although not written by Jesus. I will say that it is good to consider openly the possibility although doubtful in your mind. You open to the discussion and I am open to doing whatever I can in providing you at least reasonable basis to go on.

From my perspective the burden of proof is on you since you are arguing for a change in the status quo. I’m arguing that the spiritual communion of the saints probably is not altered by physical death, you are arguing that it is, so you should be the one providing evidence to support your claim.
I understand but keep in mind I have much more evidence to it’s substance than you have against it, thats a positive for the saints.
If you choose to believe it without conclusive evidence you have the right to do so, but you should not demand that others follow you in that.

No, I think in reading the next sentences of the statement that you here in responding to you realize I am not demanding anything, but asking for open consideration.

I believe many things that I do not comprehend, in fact I would have to say that I probably do not truly comprehend anything. If the Bible says something is true, I believe whether or not I can comprehend it. I am not at that point with the Catholic Magesterium.
I understand

I am sorry I haven’t been able to say anything you find substantial or credible. I have tried to consider every point you all have offered. From you, Tom, they have seemed to be a lot of very interesting Apostolic and Patristic quotes with which I for the most part agree and which do not directly comment on whether we can communicate spiritually with the saints. You did offer some anonymous epitaphs from around the fourth century which indicate that some Christians at that time practiced praying to or invoking the saints. I admitted that this supports your position but I don’t think it’s conclusive. No, there is no doubt a degree of faith is needed here along with the references that support the belief. But that pertains to a great deal in Christianity and the deeper the faith and devotion the more response one receives to prayer. The one problem with your position here may be in regard to which Bible version one uses.
I have not intentionally been at all sarcastic. I am sorry if I seemed that way; all of my questions were meant sincerely. I’m trying to better understand what you believe, not make fun of you. I will try in the future to be more careful with my phrasing so as to make my intentions clearer.

I have faith in Apostolic authority. I don’t think I need to have faith in popular traditions which are endorsed neither by the Apostles nor the fathers.

I will respond to this separately posted.

According to this argument one might say, “well, maybe I will find the Holy Grail, maybe I won’t, may as well try”, and then spend his life in a fruitless search. Why would we spend our time doing something we have no confidence in, instead of things which we know by faith are profitable, like praying to God, or doing good works?

Hey, that’s two questions! #1 Yes. #2 I wouldn’t reccomend it.
your right… mybad… you do realize the rosary is comprised of scripture verses don’t you? Why not recommend it if you do know that?

Anyway, I really have to write a couple of big papers here, so I probably won’t be back for a few days. I do want to say thank you to everyone who took the time to respond to me. You all have really made me think about all this.
I’ll be here when you return and look forward to more discussion with you, thanks.God bless you all, and pray for me.

 

[BMSODM]

Ethan E,

What did you think about the prayer I posted in post #168 about Joseph dating back to 50ad?

Blessing***

 

[twb1621]

I have faith in Apostolic authority. I don’t think I need to have faith in popular traditions which are endorsed neither by the Apostles nor the fathers.

This may be helpful… In the book of Psalms, which was the hymn book for the Temple in Jerusalem, we sing to those in the heavenly court and exhort them:
“Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!” (Psalm 103:20-21, RSV, as below)
The fact that those in the heavenly court can hear our prayers is also indicated in the book of Revelation, where we read:
“And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God.” (Revelation 8:3-4)
Thus those saints who are angels have a role in presenting our prayers to God in an intercessory manner. (Angels are also saints, as indicated by the fact that the Bible applies the Hebrew word for saint/holy one – qaddiysh – to them, cf. Daniel 4:13, 23, 8:13. Thus we speak of St. Michael the Archangel, St. Gabriel, St. Raphael, etc.).
Since the Ascension of Christ, when Jesus took the Old Testament saints from sheol to heaven, large numbers of humans saints have also been in heaven, and Revelation indicates they also present our prayers to God:
“And when he [the Lamb] had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints” (Revelation 5:8).
The twenty-four elders represent the hierarchy of the people of God in heaven (just as the four living creatures represent the hierarchy of the angels of God in heaven), and here they are shown presenting our prayers to God under the symbol of incense (which is, in fact, what incense symbolizes in church, since it is a pleasing smell which rises upward).
One might object, saying, “But maybe those weren’t prayers to the saints but prayers to God!” This may well be true. However, a person who says this only digs the hole deeper for himself since this would mean that those in heaven are aware of prayers which weren’t even directed to them!
In any event, we know that the saints in heaven (whether human saints or angel saints) are aware of our prayers and, based on them, intercede with God on our behalf. Scripture, Tradition, and the Magisterium all agree.

TESTS FOR THE CANON OF TRADITION
Of course the Church has tests she uses to figure out what traditions are apostolic, just as she had tests to establish what scriptures were apostolic.
One test is whether a given tradition contradicts what has previously been revealed. As anti-Catholics often point out, proposed traditions must be tested against scripture. If a proposed tradition contradicts something God has said in scripture (or something said in already known apostolic tradition) then that shows it is merely a tradition of men and may be disregarded. The Church is thus more than happy to test proposed traditions against scripture.
Of course the Church also applied the flip-side of this test: In the early centuries any proposed scripture that did not match up with apostolic tradition was rejected from the canon of scripture. Thus when, in the second and third centuries, the writings of the Gnostics taught that Jesus was not God or that the God of the Old Testament was not the God of Jesus Christ, these books were summarily rejected on the basis of not matching up to the apostolic tradition.
Naturally, once a scripture has been tested and found to be canonical it is no longer subject to testing. Once a scripture has been shown to belong to the canon of scripture, it is no longer up for debate. Similarly, once a tradition has been tested and found to be canonical it is no longer subject up for debate either. Once a tradition has been shown to belong to the canon of tradition, it is no longer up subject to testing.
A Protestant apologist would not question whether a given book of the New Testament belongs in the canon based on whether it makes a statement that is difficult to reconcile with something said in another book. Once it has been found to be canonical, we can have confidence that it is God’s infallible word and any apparent difficulties arising between it any what God has said elsewhere can be solved. In the same way, once a tradition has been tested and found canonical, we can have confidence that it is God’s inerrant word and that any apparent difficulty arising between it and anything God has said elsewhere has a solution. If we can have confidence at superficial disharmonies in the canon of scripture, we can with the canon of tradition as well.
We know that when God speaks in scripture there are apparent difficulties which arise. Liberals use these to attack the inerrancy of scripture, and so conservatives produce books showing why these supposed discrepancies are nothing of the kind. But if God speaks in scripture in such a way that apparent discrepancies arise then we should expect the same thing to happen when God speaks elsewhere as well. That gives us no cause for alarm.
cin.org/users/james/files/2canons.htm

 

[sandusky]

BMSODM:

What did you think about the prayer I posted in post #168 about Joseph dating back to 50ad?

IMO, I think you should continue in vain to pray it in vain.
Ethan E:

I have faith in Apostolic authority. I don’t think I need to have faith in popular traditions which are endorsed neither by the Apostles nor the fathers.

There you go; stay with that thinking, you’ll not go wrong.

No reason to join these folks in what are, IMO, fruitless practices that will harvest dire consequences.

 

[Peter_J]

Anyway, I really have to write a couple of big papers here, so I probably won’t be back for a few days. I do want to say thank you to everyone who took the time to respond to me. You all have really made me think about all this.

It’s great having you.

 

[BMSODM]

IMO, I think you should continue in vain to pray it in vain.

There you go; stay with that thinking, you’ll not go wrong.

No reason to join these folks in what are, IMO, fruitless practices that will harvest dire consequences.

Hello Sandusky or should I say Ethan E…
Seeing How you replied to Ethan’s question, let me pose this to you. In the early church if the apostles and early church fathers didn’t condemn something then it usually meant it was ok. Expecially if it was something practiced by the infants of the early church. So your statement’s contradict themselves above.

*“Then we commemorate also those who have fallen asleep before us, first Patriarchs, Prophets, Apostles, Martyrs, that at their prayers and intercessions God would receive our petition. Then on behalf also of the Holy Fathers and Bishops who have fallen asleep before us, and in a word of all who in past years have fallen asleep among us, believing that it will be a very great benefit to the souls, for whom the supplication is put up, while that holy and most awful sacrifice is set forth.” Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures, 23:9 (A.D. 350). *

Peace unto you…

 

[twb1621]

IMO, I think you should continue in vain to pray it in vain.

There you go; stay with that thinking, you’ll not go wrong.

No reason to join these folks in what are, IMO, fruitless practices that will harvest dire consequences.

Sadusky, why are you sounding bitter again… its not necessary… Here is a link of information from the position of the Church Fathers.

Church Fathers on ALL Sacred Tradition.
cin.org/users/jgallegos/trad.htm

 

[Realcatholicgk]

Sadusky, why are you sounding bitter again… its not necessary… Here is a link of information from the position of the Church Fathers.

Church Fathers on ALL Sacred Tradition.
cin.org/users/jgallegos/trad.htm

**Hi twb,
Think about it for a second. sand has been following the wrong path for so long. Now discovers that the RCC is the right path to savlation. Wouldn’t you be bitter? Lets pray that sand’s swim across the tiber goes smoothy. I will pray to St. Jude Thaddeus and St Rita of Cascia (There is a “catholic” joke there folks! ) for him it would be nice if you all could join in! **

 

[sandusky]

Sadusky, why are you sounding bitter again… its not necessary… Here is a link of information from the position of the Church Fathers.

Church Fathers on ALL Sacred Tradition.
cin.org/users/jgallegos/trad.htm

Actually, I think it’s you who’s bitter because you’ve been following the wrong path for so long, and you’re now discovering that.

 

[twb1621]

Actually, I think it’s you who’s bitter because you’ve been following the wrong path for so long, and you’re now discovering that.

Oh, ok. In any event I hope these links help with your questions. I’ll look forward to hearing your thoughts.

 

[twb1621]

**Hi twb,
Think about it for a second. sand has been following the wrong path for so long. Now discovers that the RCC is the right path to savlation. Wouldn’t you be bitter? Lets pray that sand’s swim across the tiber goes smoothy. I will pray to St. Jude Thaddeus and St Rita of Cascia (There is a “catholic” joke there folks! ) for him it would be nice if you all could join in! **

Of course my brother. I believe though that Sand is of the Female gender.

 

[sandusky]

Of course my brother. I believe though that Sand is of the Female gender.

He’s not.

 

[BMSODM]

Oh, Sand*****

We need to look at the past to know what direction to walk into the future…

*"[T]hat it is neither possible for us ever to forsake Christ, who suffered for the salvation of such as shall be saved throughout the whole world (the blameless one for sinners), nor to worship any other. For Him indeed, as being the Son of God, we adore; but the martyrs, as disciples and followers of the Lord, we worthily love on account of their extraordinary affection towards their own King and Master, of whom may we also be made companions and fellow disciples! The centurion then, seeing the strife excited by the Jews, placed the body in the midst of the fire, and consumed it. Accordingly, we afterwards took up his bones, as being more precious than the most exquisite jewels, and more purified than gold, and deposited them in a fitting place, whither, being gathered together, as opportunity is allowed us, with joy and rejoicing, the Lord shall grant us to celebrate the anniversary of his martyrdom, both in memory of those who have already finished their course, and for the exercising and preparation of those yet to walk in their steps." Martyrdom of Polycarp 17,18 (A.D. 157). *

Not only are our prayers important with our Brothers and Sisters but as you see above the early church also held there relic’s in high account as well. Again there is absolutely no writings condemning these things by any of the early fathers, why?

Peace and Grace, my brother…

 

[twb1621]

He’s not.

ok, I was told you were female but I am glad you straightened that out for me. Thanks…

 

[twb1621]

He’s not.

are you going to check out the information given or am I waisting my time trying to get you answers to your questions…

 

[Realcatholicgk]

Of course my brother. I believe though that Sand is of the Female gender.

**That might just have been because of the swing in his hips! :bigyikes: Actually with sand’s attitude most times to be a female he would have to be a dike! And I mean that in the kindest way!

So, did anyone get the joke about the Saints and sand?

Hey, sand, no original thoughts? You sounded like a parrot there old buddy: **

Realcatholicgk:

sand has been following the wrong path for so long. Now discovers that the RCC is the right path to savlation

**
because you’ve been following the wrong path for so long, and you’re now discovering that.**

**The only problem buddy, Jesus agrees with me! You better read the bible, your salvation depends on that! “Counterfeit Christians” will go to Hell with Satan, not to a counterfeit heaven with a counterfeit jesus! And trust me on this, that could burn your butt, my friend!
freesmileys.org/smileys/bounce002.gif

**

 

[Realcatholicgk]

are you going to check out the information given or am I waisting my time trying to get you answers to your questions…

**Hi, twb
Sand likes to say IMO, I am sure you knew that means “In My Opinion”. That means he speaks with his own authority, isn’t that precious! Myself, like you and most Catholics here don’t normally give our personal opinions. You and I always tell what the real church teaches. I wondered why Protestants did that, until I realized they can’t support their personal opinions with the real teachings of Jesus! :doh2:

IMO I don’t thind sand know what he is talking about!

freesmileys.org/smileys/laughing024.gif **

 

[twb1621]

**Hi, twb
Sand likes to say IMO, I am sure you knew that means “In My Opinion”. That means he speaks with his own authority, isn’t that precious! Myself, like you and most Catholics here don’t normally give our personal opinions. You and I always tell what the real church teaches. I wondered why Protestants did that, until I realized they can’t support their personal opinions with the real teachings of Jesus! :doh2:

IMO I don’t thind sand know what he is talking about!

freesmileys.org/smileys/laughing024.gif**

I don’t know but some people just like to debate for the sake of debating…

 

[BMSODM]

RealCatholic…

I would caution you brother on your application of Truth. Just because someone holds Truth doesn’t mean they are able to adminster that truth effectively. There heart has to be right because God looks at the heart of the one either administerings it an recieving it. God judges there heart, not the work alone. So while what you say might be correct, the way your saying it isn’t. Or maybe better said is the way your saying it isn’t coming across very loving.

Just because someone isn’t catholic doesn’t mean there going to hell. And it would be foolish to preach such. It doesn’t make them a counterfit christian. it just means there not in the fullness of the teachings of Christ. Remember brother the merciful shall obtain mercy and love cover’s all.

IMO, your acting like so many protestant do with me on my other site. They witness in the same fashion you do, and my brother its very ineffective.

Mt 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

And this is why we should always approach everyone (no matter there doctrine) with love…

*1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,

2 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;

3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.*

Peace unto you***

 

[pathfinder7]

I I don’t want to base all my opinions just on what Protestants say, because I know there is some bias there.

Congratulations: You’ve just won the Understatment of the Year Award

and your prize is: you get to listen to my opinions…

Anyway, i love praying to saints because they used to be human just like me…

and they overcame that…