Proof for praying to saints

[BMSODM]

so…

A priest who condones abortion verbally…excommunicated. Somebody who participates in the actual aborting of a child…no excommunication.

Well, I guess I’ll just remain Protestant. I know we excommunicate abortionists. tiller the killer was excommunicated from the lutheran church as an unrepentant sinner. So, I’ll stick with lutheranism.

Blessings***

If we excommunicate a person who commits murder, then we need to excommunicate someone who tells a lie. The Word tells us that to lie is to murder. We can kill others with our words just as easily as with a weapon. Our words are weapons so we would have no one left in the church if we excommunicated every sinner.

I would even go as far to say that if someone was going around and teachings the parish that lying was ok and God approves of it then they should be excommunicated.

Your eyes are fixed on the sin and not on the sinner and that is your mistake. The sinner needs to remain in the hospital.

I think your time would be better suited focusing on the Eucharist and why its the real presence. That should be the reason you become Catholic. We are the only church who holds this miracle.

Peace***

 

[Chris_LaRock]

Blessings***

If we excommunicate a person who commits murder, then we need to excommunicate someone who tells a lie. The Word tells us that to lie is to murder. We can kill others with our words just as easily as with a weapon. Our words are weapons so we would have no one left in the church if we excommunicated every sinner.

I would even go as far to say that if someone was going around and teachings the parish that lying was ok and God approves of it then they should be excommunicated.

Your eyes are fixed on the sin and not on the sinner and that is your mistake. The sinner needs to remain in the hospital.

I think your time would be better suited focusing on the Eucharist and why its the real presence. That should be the reason you become Catholic. We are the only church who holds this miracle.

Peace***

It won’t do someone much good to stay in the hospital if they’re refusing medical treatment, and inflicting more harm to themself in the meantime.

 

[Realcatholicgk]

No, I’m pretty sure that is incorrect. (Hopefully one of my fellow Catholics can provide a link/source.)

**
Hi PeterJ
Were you talking about me?

Abortion and Excommunication**
May 20, 2004

Any Catholic who obstinately denies that abortion is always gravely immoral, commits the sin of heresy and incurs an automatic sentence of excommunication.

Canon Law and Church Teaching

Canon 1398: “A person who procures a completed abortion incurs a latae sententiae excommunication.”

Canon 751: “Heresy is the obstinate denial or obstinate doubt after the reception of baptism of some truth which is to be believed by divine and Catholic faith; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Supreme Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him.”

Canon 1364 §1: “an apostate from the faith, a heretic, or a schismatic incurs a latae sententiae excommunication.”

The phrase “latae sententiae” means a judgment or sentence which has already been brought, in other words, a sentence or judgment which does not need a future additional judgment from someone in authority; it refers to a type of excommunication which is automatic. Such a sentence of excommunication is incurred “by the very commission of the offense,” (CCC 2272) and does not require the future particular judgment of a case by competent authority.

Apostasy, heresy, and schism are all offences which incur a sentence of excommunication automatically. Heresy is the obstinate denial of any truth of the Catholic faith, on a matter of faith or morals, which has been definitively taught by the Magisterium. The Magisterium has repeatedly and definitively taught that abortion is always gravely immoral. (CCC 2270 to 2275)

Pope John Paul II, Evangelium Vitae, n. 57: “Therefore, by the authority which Christ conferred upon Peter and his Successors, and in communion with the Bishops of the Catholic Church, I confirm that the direct and voluntary killing of an innocent human being is always gravely immoral. This doctrine, based upon that unwritten law which man, in the light of reason, finds in his own heart (cf. Rom 2:14-15), is reaffirmed by Sacred Scripture, transmitted by the Tradition of the Church and taught by the ordinary and universal Magisterium.”

Obtaining an Abortion

Any Catholic who deliberately and knowingly obtains a procured abortion commits a mortal sin and is also automatically excommunicated, under canon 1398.

Under the laws of secular society, if one person commits a crime, then anyone who deliberately and knowingly provides essential or substantial means for that person to commit that crime is called an accessory to that crime and is also subject to the penalties of law. Similarly, any Catholic who deliberately and knowingly provides essential or substantial means for any woman to procure an abortion also commits a mortal sin and also incurs the same sentence of excommunication.

Any Catholic who substantially assists another in the deliberate sin of abortion is also guilty of serious sin and also incurs a latae sententiae excommunication.

Believing in Abortion

Any Catholic who obstinately denies that abortion is always gravely immoral commits the sin of heresy. The sin of heresy also incurs a latae sententiae excommunication.

Unfortunately, some Catholics obstinately deny that abortion is always immoral, and some Catholics claim that abortion can, at times, be a morally-acceptable choice, and some Catholics claim that a person can, in good conscience, choose abortion. Under the Code of Canon Law of the Roman Catholic Church, canons 751 and 1364, all such Catholics are automatically excommunicated for the sin of heresy.

This sentence of latae sententiae excommunication applies to any Catholic who denies that abortion is gravely immoral, regardless of whether they keep this denial hidden or publicly reveal it.

Promoting Abortion

Those Catholics who publicly announce their denial that abortion is always gravely immoral, or who publicly promote abortion, or who publicly argue in favor of legalized abortion, also commit a mortal sin and also incur a sentence of automatic excommunication.

This sentence of excommunication applies to Catholics who are politicians, as well as to those Catholics who are political commentators, or public speakers, or who write or otherwise publicly communicate their erroneous view that abortion can be morally-acceptable or that abortion should be legal. This sentence of excommunication also certainly applies to those Catholics who claim to be theologians or Biblical scholars, but who believe or teach that abortion is not always gravely immoral.

Those Catholics who promote abortion are automatically excommunicated for two reasons. First, they have fallen into the sin of heresy by believing that abortion is not always gravely immoral (canons 751 and 1364). Second, these Catholics are providing substantial assistance for women to obtain abortions by influencing public policy to make abortions legal, and to keep abortions legal, and to broaden access to abortion. Those who provide such substantial assistance commit a mortal sin and incur a sentence of automatic excommunication (canon 1398).

(Part One)

 

[Realcatholicgk]

**

(Part two)

Those Catholics who promote abortion are automatically excommunicated for two reasons. First, they have fallen into the sin of heresy by believing that abortion is not always gravely immoral (canons 751 and 1364). Second, these Catholics are providing substantial assistance for women to obtain abortions by influencing public policy to make abortions legal, and to keep abortions legal, and to broaden access to abortion. Those who provide such substantial assistance commit a mortal sin and incur a sentence of automatic excommunication (canon 1398).

(Some information eliminated for space)**
It is not sufficient for Catholic politicians to claim that they are “personally opposed” to abortion. If any Catholic politician favors legalized abortion, despite a claim of personal opposition, such a politician commits a mortal sin by promoting abortion and by voting in favor of abortion.

The same is true for any Catholic who casts any vote with the intention of legalizing abortion, or of protecting laws allowing abortion, or of widening access to abortion. Such a voter commits a mortal sin and incurs a sentence of automatic excommunication for two reasons. First, they are committing the sin of heresy by believing that abortion should be legal and available. Second, they are committing the grievous sin of providing women with substantial or essential assistance in obtaining abortions, by attempting to legalize or broaden access to abortion.

However, if, for a period of time, Catholic politicians and voters are unable to enact a law prohibiting all abortion, then Catholic politicians and voters may in good conscience vote for whichever law offers the greatest restrictions and limits on abortion. Subsequently, Catholic politicians and voters are required by the moral law to continue to enact further restrictions and limits on abortion, to the greatest extent possible, and, at every possible opportunity, to vote for laws which completely outlaw abortion.

Voting for Politicians

In general, the moral law requires Catholic voters to vote for those candidates who oppose abortion over those who favor abortion. However, there are exceptions to this general principle. For example, if a political candidate favors abortion, but is a member of a party which generally opposes abortion, a Catholic voter may, in good conscience, vote for that candidate, with the intention of giving more political power to the party which opposes abortion.

In another case, a Catholic voter might, in good conscience, vote for a pro-abortion candidate, if the political office would offer no opportunity for the elected candidate to vote for or against abortion. Even so, every Catholic voter should consider that anyone who supports abortion, as if it were a woman’s right, or as if it could ever be a moral choice, must necessarily be someone who has a seriously limited understanding of morality and justice. Such a person would not often be the better candidate for any office in place of one who understands that abortion is gravely immoral.

In every case, a Catholic should vote in such a way as to obtain as many restrictions on abortion as possible, and so as to obtain the end to legalized abortion as soon as possible.

Constitutional Amendment

Within any constitutional form of government, it would be ideal to have a constitutional clause or amendment which permanently and completely outlaws all procured abortions. Such an amendment must ban all abortions, regardless of circumstance, so that the direct and voluntary killing of an innocent prenatal human being will be always contrary to human law, just as it is always contrary to the moral law.

A constitutional amendment can permit certain medical procedures, which are absolutely necessary to save the life of the mother, and which indirectly result in the unintended and unsought death of the prenatal, only if there is no possible way to save the life of the prenatal. A prenatal is defined as any human being from conception to birth. Every reasonable effort should be made to save the lives of both mother and prenatal. If the life of the prenatal can be saved by no other possible option than by risking or allowing the death of the mother, then the prenatal must be saved.

Catholic teaching clearly allows for certain medical procedures, which indirectly and involuntarily result in the death of the prenatal, to save the life of the mother, but only when all options to save the life of the prenatal have been exhausted. Such a procedure is not an abortion and is not an exception wherein abortion is allowed.

On the other hand, a constitutional amendment which bans abortion with exceptions for various cases, such as rape, incest, or a risk to the mother’s life, would be worse than having no such amendment at all.

Any woman who is willing to commit the sin of abortion, would also be willing to lie. If a constitutional amendment permitted abortion in cases of rape, then any woman willing to lie and to falsely claim that she was raped, would be able to also claim that she had a constitutional right to an abortion. The result would be that a constitutional amendment, which seems to ban abortion with some exceptions, would end up giving every woman who is willing to tell a lie, a purported constitutional right to abortion. This situation would be worse than having no such constitutional amendment at all.

Therefore, the only acceptable pro-life constitutional amendment would be one that, in accordance with Catholic teaching, bans all procured abortions without exception.

— by Ronald L. Conte Jr.
[Abortion and Excommunication - Catholic Christian Article]( Click on: “The Original article”)

 

[Realcatholicgk]

** National Alert Announcement

Due to the recent economic crisis, bailouts, budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil, and the election of Obama, The Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off.

We apologize for any inconvenience this has caused. **

 

[BMSODM]

It won’t do someone much good to stay in the hospital if they’re refusing medical treatment, and inflicting more harm to themself in the meantime.

Blessings***

I would disagree with that statement. What about people who are commited to mental health hospitals? There put there because they can’t make it in the world on there own, so these souls should be seen in the same light. There in sin because they don’t know better. They have been decieved by the evil one into beleiving its ok to commit these sins. There in need of mental health. By staying in the church they can continue to receive there IV’s. With each drip comes medicine that gives life.

Real catholic provided an excellent post above on the canon law about abortion. I think its in accord with what I have been saying.
Sin seperates(excommunicates) us from God and the Church and only confession unites us back to God and the Church.

PS. Keep in mind what I said we leave God when we live in sin, but God never leaves us…

Peace unto You***

 

[Chris_LaRock]

Blessings***

I would disagree with that statement. What about people who are commited to mental health hospitals? There put there because they can’t make it in the world on there own, so these souls should be seen in the same light. There in sin because they don’t know better. They have been decieved by the evil one into beleiving its ok to commit these sins. There in need of mental health. By staying in the church they can continue to receive there IV’s. With each drip comes medicine that gives life.

Real catholic provided an excellent post above on the canon law about abortion. I think its in accord with what I have been saying.
Sin seperates(excommunicates) us from God and the Church and only confession unites us back to God and the Church.

PS. Keep in mind what I said we leave God when we live in sin, but God never leaves us…

Peace unto You***

But what do you do when someone has innocent blood on their hands and they refuse to stop contributing to even more deaths? It seems like they would be excommunicated at some point when it becomes obvious that they are too stubborn to repent.

 

[BMSODM]

But what do you do when someone has innocent blood on their hands and they refuse to stop contributing to even more deaths? It seems like they would be excommunicated at some point when it becomes obvious that they are too stubborn to repent.

Blessings***

you asked:
“what do you do when someone has innocent blood on their hands and they refuse to stop contributing to even more deaths?”

The same thing I do when someone continues to tell lies (even if those are hurting or killing others). I Pray for them, without ceasing. Thats all I can do…Pray! Pray! Pray!

They have already cut themselves from the vine. I can’t do anything worse then what they have done to themselves. They have excommunicated themselves from the living well. We need to pray for these poor sinners without ceasing. That is our job…

Peace***

 

[guanophore]

But what do you do in a case where the Elders are tolerating sinful conduct and the laity are offended and demanding action to be taken against it? Do you just tell the laity to just shut up and let the Elders turn a deaf ear and blind eye to apostacy?

This is a just question. There have been many priests and even bishops who have been out of order. The laity are called to follow the model in scripture, where we go to our brother, and tell him his fault. If he does not listen, then we take others with us, and if he still will not listen, we “tell it to the Church”. That means one goes to the bishop, and if the bishop is out of order, to the council of bishops. There are many layers of heirarchy that can solve such problems before they get to the Holy Father.

Do you tell them that hard-hearted, stubborn, and unrepentant sinners have just as much right to be in the church as those who actually make an effort to follow the teachings and reconcile themselves to God? You have to draw a line somewhere.

Yes, I do think that sinners need the church, but I don’t think it is a “right”, but a privilege. God’s grace is available for all who want it, and it does not stop being available just because someone is stubborn. I agree, the line needs to be drawn. I just have my hands full with my own lines, so I have very little energy left to find the fault in others.

 

[Realcatholicgk]

But what do you do when someone has innocent blood on their hands and they refuse to stop contributing to even more deaths? It seems like they would be excommunicated at some point when it becomes obvious that they are too stubborn to repent.

**

Hi Chris,
like BM said you must pray for them. I also stand in front of the abortion clinic every time we are “informed” that they are doing abortions and I am able to go! That makes me be a visable sign of my personal belief We have people who let us know when the abortions are scheduled.
I heard of an abortionist, that after he aborts the children, he baptises them before throwing them into medical waste containers. I guest, in a preverted way, he thinks he is doing something good. How he can sleep at night, is beyond my understanding and I personally killed 54 people during war and sleep soundly because they were “just” kills.

These innocent children were baptised by their blood when the Devil had him preform the abortion. What can we do? Pray and pray more. God listens and answers prayers. By your prayers God will know that you are a rightious person and if He decides to inflict punishment on our country you might be spared! But whatever you do, do not be silent! Protest, go to abortions clincs. Volunter to do things. Join pro-life groups. Don’t judge other’s actions, worry about yours!

Find out what is being done on the Day of the Unborn Child in your neighborhood! This international program is held annually on March 25th, the feast of the Annunciation of the Lord.

Get involved, don’t just complain!

God Bless**

 

[Chris_LaRock]

I heard of an abortionist, that after he aborts the children, he baptises them before throwing them into medical waste containers. I guest, in a preverted way, he thinks he is doing something good. How he can sleep at night, is beyond my understanding and I personally killed 54 people during war and sleep soundly because they were “just” kills.

That would be babykiller george tiller down there in witchita kansas. He nearly killed 3 different women in 3 seperate botched abortions earlier this year. He’s being prosecuted for performing post-viability abortions without following legal procedure and having a third party confirm the health of the mother was at stake. He was also involved in a hit and run assault on a prolifer, and walked.

 

[Realcatholicgk]

That would be babykiller george tiller down there in witchita kansas. He nearly killed 3 different women in 3 seperate botched abortions earlier this year. He’s being prosecuted for performing post-viability abortions without following legal procedure and having a third party confirm the health of the mother was at stake. He was also involved in a hit and run assault on a prolifer, and walked.

**
“George Tiller is America’s most notorious abortionist. By his own count, he has performed over sixty-thousand abortions.”

May God forgive Him, I, being human couldn’t. freesmileys.org/smileys/angry019.gif**

 

[guanophore]

**
May God forgive Him, I, being human couldn’t. freesmileys.org/smileys/angry019.gif**

Better get bizzie workin’ on that right away, Gk!

Matt 6:14-15

14 For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you; 15 but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

 

[Chris_LaRock]

**
“George Tiller is America’s most notorious abortionist. By his own count, he has performed over sixty-thousand abortions**.”

May God forgive Him, I, being human couldn’t. freesmileys.org/smileys/angry019.gif

The man is a monster. He sickens me, and makes me ashamed to be the same spieces.

All abortionists are in for a rude awakening when those dead babies are raised to life on the last day and they are forced to explain to God why they murdered them to begin with.

If God is going to judge america for it’s abortion holocaust, as Fr. Corapi has stated, I look forward to it. These children were murdered in cold blood and deserve justice. I feel these children have more right to live than I do, since I have done some serious sins myself - and they are innocent.:bighanky:

 

[guanophore]

The man is a monster. He sickens me, and makes me ashamed to be the same spieces.

All abortionists are in for a rude awakening when those dead babies are raised to life on the last day and they are forced to explain to God why they murdered them to begin with.

If God is going to judge america for it’s abortion holocaust, as Fr. Corapi has stated, I look forward to it. These children were murdered in cold blood and deserve justice. I feel these children have more right to live than I do, since I have done some serious sins myself - and they are innocent.:bighanky:

Let us ask them for their prayers, that we may aspire to their innocence,

 

[Chris_LaRock]

Let us ask them for their prayers, that we may aspire to their innocence,

I just want to see justice for those murdered children. I was born almost ten years after Roe, and am painfully aware that I could’ve ended up like those children. 1/3 of my generation wasn’t so lucky. It makes me sick to think that such sick and evil practices are being carried out by people who actually take pride in the murders they are helping to perpetrate.

We all should join together to petition God with fasting and prayer for justice. We have to tell God in a united voice that we are sick and tired of this, and desperately want His kingdom to come and His will to be done on earth as it is in heaven. Our political leadership has failed to stop the killing, and we should be appealing to a higher power (God) to bring this to an end.

 

[BMSODM]

I just want to see justice for those murdered children. I was born almost ten years after Roe, and am painfully aware that I could’ve ended up like those children. 1/3 of my generation wasn’t so lucky. It makes me sick to think that such sick and evil practices are being carried out by people who actually take pride in the murders they are helping to perpetrate.

We all should join together to petition God with fasting and prayer for justice. We have to tell God in a united voice that we are sick and tired of this, and desperately want His kingdom to come and His will to be done on earth as it is in heaven. Our political leadership has failed to stop the killing, and we should be appealing to a higher power (God) to bring this to an end.

Blessings***

I think we would benefit better by praying for God’s Mercy. I certainly beleive God’s Kingdom would benefit in the long run. We need to think about all the souls who haven’t converted yet. What would happen to them if God envoked His Justice NOW? All those souls would perish in the fire. I know it pains your heart as it does mine to see these babies being killed but we have to look at this in a different way. These babies are being welcomed into the Kingdom. There sacrafice isn’t going un-noticed. There lives are being sacraficed for man. If God envoked His justice for the sin’s of these doctors now, mankind as a whole would suffer and satan would win.

We need to remember to pay attention to the details, the message is always in the details…Ask your Holy Mother to intercede on the poor sinners behalf and ask Her to ask Her Son to withhold His Fathers hand from the justice we rightfully deserve.

God’s Justice will come soon enough, there is no need to pray for it to come any sooner. Has everyone you know came to the Lord yet? If not, then cry for Mercy and Time for these loved ones…

Peace***

 

[Chris_LaRock]

Blessings***

I think we would benefit better by praying for God’s Mercy. I certainly beleive God’s Kingdom would benefit in the long run. We need to think about all the souls who haven’t converted yet. What would happen to them if God envoked His Justice NOW? All those souls would perish in the fire. I know it pains your heart as it does mine to see these babies being killed but we have to look at this in a different way. These babies are being welcomed into the Kingdom. There sacrafice isn’t going un-noticed. There lives are being sacraficed for man. If God envoked His justice for the sin’s of these doctors now, mankind as a whole would suffer and satan would win.

We need to remember to pay attention to the details, the message is always in the details…Ask your Holy Mother to intercede on the poor sinners behalf and ask Her to ask Her Son to withhold His Fathers hand from the justice we rightfully deserve.

God’s Justice will come soon enough, there is no need to pray for it to come any sooner. Has everyone you know came to the Lord yet? If not, then cry for Mercy and Time for these loved ones…

Peace***

How many more children have to die through abortion before we stop feeling pity for the murderers? Should God not judge sin at all? Maybe we should wait until a billion children have died to say, “gee, I think we should stop this.”

Most of these abortionists KNOW they are murdering babies, and don’t care. They are cold-hearted and don’t care. They won’t repent, so why let them keep killing?

It would be an act of mercy on God’s part to deliver the innocents from the hands of murderers.

 

[BMSODM]

How many more children have to die through abortion before we stop feeling pity for the murderers? Should God not judge sin at all? Maybe we should wait until a billion children have died to say, “gee, I think we should stop this.”

Most of these abortionists KNOW they are murdering babies, and don’t care. They are cold-hearted and don’t care. They won’t repent, so why let them keep killing?

It would be an act of mercy on God’s part to deliver the innocents from the hands of murderers.

Blessings Brother***

Of course these abortionist know what they are doing. But remember they have been blinded and decieved by satan and there sin. But there are all types of sin running rampid in the world. And to ask God to come and judge the world now would end up putting millions of souls in the eternal pit of fire. And many of these souls might come to the Lord if they had more time. Even some of the abortionist.

You said “it would be an act of mercy on God’s part to deliver the innocents from the hands of murderers.”

He has delivered them not only from the murderers hands but also from the worlds hands of sin. These babies are with God now.
Remember nothing happens unless God allows it to happen, so if God is allowing this to happen then I’m sure there is a good reason for it.

There is no greater love then when one lay’s it’s life down for another.

Peace***

 

[Realcatholicgk]

Better get bizzie workin’ on that right away, Gk!

Matt 6:14-15

14 For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you; 15 but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

**Hi guan,

I am sorry dear. This surpasses “tresspassing” He did not tresspass against me!! That monster murdered 60 Thousand babies. 60 Thousand. I can not consider them “tresspasses”. They are sins against life, sins against God Almighty Himself. I fear I could only be judged, if I did forgive him!

“There are six things which the Lord hates, Yes, seven which are an abomination to Him: 17 Haughty eyes, a lying tongue, And hands that shed innocent blood, 18 A heart that devises wicked plans, Feet that run rapidly to evil, 19 A false witness who utters lies, And one who spreads strife among brothers” Prov 6.16

I am not judging Him, I acknowledge that it is God’s job alone to preform the final judgement. However, If the price demanded by God for that monster to burn in Hell was for me personally to joining him in the pits of hell for not being able to forgiving him. I would gladdly jump in feet first!

But, I know my God is a fair and just God. He would not allow me to make that sacrafice when the man condemns himself through his actions. I refuse to pray for his soul! That man is an abonination! I would spit on his grave! I will pray for his damnation not salvation!

My God, My God, is the United States so corrupted that you have hardened your heart even towards our children in the womb? Can you not provide these innocent babies any justice? I beg you in Jesus name, stop this monster. May his soul burn in hell forever! Amen~!

As a God fearing Christian, I will pray daily that this “animal” burns in Hell! God, nor a rightist man should not disapprove of that. If anyone does, I say now ~ “Shame on you to the sixth generation!” Your god is not my God nor is he the real God Almighty!

Can he be forgiven? Of course, God can forgive anything He desires. Can he be forgiven by me? Not in this life time! I dispise him and all others like him. may they all burn in hell, I ask this through my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Give those 60 thousand babies Justice! Amen!

God Bless**