Proof for praying to saints

[Realcatholicgk]

When Paul writes that God is no “respecter” he means that the same is possible for all of us. All of us are called to be saints.

There are a couple errors in your question, though. God does not elevate the dead, but the living. When we are transferred from the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of light, we are united with God in Christ. We are seated with him in the heavens. This "elevation’ is part of the birthright of our baptism.

Furthermore, you seem to have a misunderstanding about the use of the word “prayer” here. It means to ask/supplicate. It is no different than me asking for your prayers. If I say to you, Chris, will you pray for me? have I somehow “elevated” you, or asked you to do something God did not empower you to do?

**
Hi guan,

Excellent explanation! Chris actually does wants to learn. You and BM provided excellent insight!

God Bless**

 

[Chris_LaRock]

I know my next question might be provocative, but I feel compelled to ask anyway.

How many of these saints were originally labeled as heritics put to death by the church itself?

 

[Realcatholicgk]

I know my next question might be provocative, but I feel compelled to ask anyway.

How many of these saints were originally labeled as heritics put to death by the church itself?

**
Hi Chris,

It is a valid question. History might even be able to provide the answer, but I doubt it. Who actually knows the number of heritics put to death. Would “Many” suffice? Who would know if people who were killed as heritics were Saints? Can you name a few that concern you? And I am wondering, what difference does that make? I am thinking you have another question that might be even more provocative?

I am actually starting to agree with your signature!

Reference Saints dying You reminded me of this cute thing I read and extracted from “Saint and Swords”

“This morning Dawson and I were reading a children’s book of saints. It included a picture and sample of 10 different saints. We started with Mary and Joseph. Next in line was Joan of Arc pictured in a suit of armor holding a sword.”

“She won the battle but was later killed because she believed in God,” I explained.

Dawson’s eyes got wide as he asked, “She got killed?”

“Yes, they used to kill people who believed in God.”

We continued to Saint Paul, who was also depicted with a sword. “People didn’t like him talking about God so they killed him.”

“He was killed too?” he asked in surprise. Then the little wheels started turning. He flipped back to the cover of the book which had little pictures of each of the saints. “So she was killed?” he wanted to know as he pointed to Saint Joan of Arc.

“Yes.”

“And he wasn’t?” as he pointed to St. Joseph. “And she wasn’t?” pointing to Mary. And he went on to each of the ten in the same way.

“That’s right buddy,” I said, impressed that he remembered all of them.

“So…all of the ones with swords were killed and…all of the ones without swords weren’t.”

Extract from: raisingangels.blogspot.com

God Bless
**

 

[Peter_J]

I know my next question might be provocative, but I feel compelled to ask anyway.

How many of these saints were originally labeled as heritics put to death by the church itself?

It’s a good question, Chris, except that I would take issue with the phrase “by the church”. We Catholics are not so quick to take actions done by members of the Church, and speak of them as being done “by the Church”.

Remember that “the Church” is the bride of Christ.

 

[unacanta]

Hello, Elizabeth. A couple months ago, I had a conversation with a member of the “Church of Christ” about this very issue. First, you must distinguish between the verbs “to pray” and “to worship”. They are two very different things. The essence of “to pray” means “to ask”. We do not worship the saints – we worship God alone – but we do speak to them in prayer.

Interesting that you would say that “we worship God alone”. Consider the following:

O Mother of Perpetual Help, thou art the dispenser of all the goods which God grants to us miserable sinners, and for this reason he has made thee so powerful, so rich, and so bountiful, that thou mayest help us in our misery. Thou art the advocate of the most wretched and abandoned sinners who have recourse to thee. Come then, to my help, dearest Mother, for I recommend myself to thee. In thy hands I place my eternal salvation and to thee do I entrust my soul. Count me among thy most devoted servants; take me under thy protection, and it is enough for me. For, if thou protect me, dear Mother, I fear nothing; not from my sins, because thou wilt obtain for me the pardon of them; nor from the devils, because thou art more powerful than all hell together; nor even from Jesus, my Judge himself, because by one prayer from thee he will be appeased. But one thing I fear, that in the hour of temptation I may neglect to call on thee and thus perish miserably. Obtain for me, then, the pardon of my sins, love for Jesus, final perseverance, and the grace always to have recourse to thee, O Mother of Perpetual Help

As a Protestant, I wonder, is this worship, or just a call for Mary or the Saints to pray for us?

Let us look ast some points in the prayer, I have place in bold the text from the formal prayer to Mary which is recited by the faithful.

1. Come then, to my help, dearest Mother, for I recommend myself to thee. In thy hands I place my eternal salvation and to thee do I entrust my soul

The person praying, not only places their eternal salvation into Mary’s hands, but also their very soul. The bible clearly teaches salvation comes from no other than Jesus.

2. I fear nothing; not from my sins, because thou wilt obtain for me the pardon of them;

Now, they don’t fear anything, even their sins because Mary will obtain a pardon. Again, Jesus is the only one who can pardon sin. Bible teaching is again clear that our sin is forgiven through faith and belief in Christ, not the Saints or Mary. We do not need anyone other than Him.

3. because thou art more powerful than all hell together
This part I totally agree with, Mary just as every other believer was given dominion over demons by the power of Christ blood. The person fearing “devils” should take authority over them and cast them out.

4. nor even from Jesus, my Judge himself

Now we see the supplicant fearing Jesus the very author of their faith!!! It is His blood which purchased them freedom. Now they fear him??

To conclude, if I pray this prayer I entrust my soul, salvation, give up my authority over demons which Christ gave, fear the very one who freed me from sin. All is placed in the Blessed Mother’s hands.

Sounds a whole lot like worship t to me.

Now you see why some Protestants would jump to the conclusion that Catholics worship Mary and the Saints when they pray to (with) them

Una

 

[Chris_LaRock]

It’s a good question, Chris, except that I would take issue with the phrase “by the church”. We Catholics are not so quick to take actions done by members of the Church, and speak of them as being done “by the Church”.

Remember that “the Church” is the bride of Christ.

Ok, I can see that. I’ll rephrase it. How many of these future saints were originally labeled heritics and then killed by church leaders?

 

[Chris_LaRock]

**
Hi Chris,

It is a valid question. History might even be able to provide the answer, but I doubt it. Who actually knows the number of heritics put to death. Would “Many” suffice? Who would know if people who were killed as heritics were Saints? Can you name a few that concern you? And I am wondering, what difference does that make? I am thinking you have another question that might be even more provocative?

(Provacative: Were there any cute, short women saints who like pizza? My kind of lady! )**

I am actually starting to agree with your signature!

(I am the pope of imperfection)

Reference Saints dying You reminded me of this cute thing I read and extracted from “Saint and Swords”

“This morning Dawson and I were reading a children’s book of saints. It included a picture and sample of 10 different saints. We started with Mary and Joseph. Next in line was Joan of Arc pictured in a suit of armor holding a sword.”

“She won the battle but was later killed because she believed in God,” I explained.

Dawson’s eyes got wide as he asked, “She got killed?”

“Yes, they used to kill people who believed in God.”

We continued to Saint Paul, who was also depicted with a sword. “People didn’t like him talking about God so they killed him.”

“He was killed too?” he asked in surprise. Then the little wheels started turning. He flipped back to the cover of the book which had little pictures of each of the saints. “So she was killed?” he wanted to know as he pointed to Saint Joan of Arc.

“Yes.”

“And he wasn’t?” as he pointed to St. Joseph. “And she wasn’t?” pointing to Mary. And he went on to each of the ten in the same way.

“That’s right buddy,” I said, impressed that he remembered all of them.

“So…all of the ones with swords were killed and…all of the ones without swords weren’t.”

Extract from: raisingangels.blogspot.com

(Interesting side note: Many of the prophets who are now highly respected within Judaism were persecuted and killed in their life times.)
God Bless

 

[Realcatholicgk]

Provacative: Were there any cute, short women saints who like pizza? My kind of lady!

**Hi Chris,

Saint Teresa of Ávila; Bessed Angela of Foligno; St. Catherine of Siena; St. Catherine of Genoa; St. Clare of Assisi The problem Chris ~ “They” are in heaven!

A much more Interesting side note: Many people in history who are now highly respected were persecuted and killed in their life times. Even in the past 200 years here in the USA.

So what?

Waiting for your point. I hope there finally is one, that it does make sense!:whacky:

God Bless**

 

[Chris_LaRock]

**Hi Chris,

Saint Teresa of Ávila; Bessed Angela of Foligno; St. Catherine of Siena; St. Catherine of Genoa; St. Clare of Assisi The problem Chris ~ “They” are in heaven!

A much more Interesting side note: Many people in history who are now highly respected were persecuted and killed in their life times. Even in the past 200 years here in the USA.

So what? **

Waiting for your point. I hope there finally is one, that it does make sense!:whacky:

God Bless

I just think it’s ironic that the same religious system that elevates people to sainthood could also be responsible for killing them in the first place.

 

[guanophore]

I just think it’s ironic that the same religious system that elevates people to sainthood could also be responsible for killing them in the first place.

This is an error in reasoning, however. It is not a “religious system” that elevates them to sainthood, but the revelation of God in Christ. There were sinful, self centered persons during their lifetimes, just as there were during the live of Christ, that did not accept Him. God elevated Him anyway. God elevates those whom he glorifies.

It seems that you suffer from a deficient view of the Church.

 

[johnnydigit]

I just think it’s ironic that the same religious system that elevates people to sainthood could also be responsible for killing them in the first place.

“i just think it’s ironic that the same Jesus that chose the Apostles was also responsible for killing them.”

“i just think it’s ironic that the same Jesus that chose the Apostles to help him were also responsible for killing him.”

denial is not a river in Egypt…

sorry it’s been a while, are you the same person that uses these excuses to not follow Jesus’ one, true Church? you really shouldn’t be worried that we know, you should be worried that He knows.
the more spin you put in this thread, the more you will be accountable for leading others you may not know you are leading astray.

 

[BMSODM]

Interesting that you would say that “we worship God alone”. Consider the following:

As a Protestant, I wonder, is this worship, or just a call for Mary or the Saints to pray for us?

Let us look ast some points in the prayer, I have place in bold the text from the formal prayer to Mary which is recited by the faithful.

1. Come then, to my help, dearest Mother, for I recommend myself to thee. In thy hands I place my eternal salvation and to thee do I entrust my soul

The person praying, not only places their eternal salvation into Mary’s hands, but also their very soul. The bible clearly teaches salvation comes from no other than Jesus.

2. I fear nothing; not from my sins, because thou wilt obtain for me the pardon of them;

Now, they don’t fear anything, even their sins because Mary will obtain a pardon. Again, Jesus is the only one who can pardon sin. Bible teaching is again clear that our sin is forgiven through faith and belief in Christ, not the Saints or Mary. We do not need anyone other than Him.

3. because thou art more powerful than all hell together
This part I totally agree with, Mary just as every other believer was given dominion over demons by the power of Christ blood. The person fearing “devils” should take authority over them and cast them out.

4. nor even from Jesus, my Judge himself

Now we see the supplicant fearing Jesus the very author of their faith!!! It is His blood which purchased them freedom. Now they fear him??

To conclude, if I pray this prayer I entrust my soul, salvation, give up my authority over demons which Christ gave, fear the very one who freed me from sin. All is placed in the Blessed Mother’s hands.

Sounds a whole lot like worship t to me.

Now you see why some Protestants would jump to the conclusion that Catholics worship Mary and the Saints when they pray to (with) them

Una

Una, Blessings***

"As a Protestant, I wonder, is this worship, or just a call for Mary or the Saints to pray for us? "

You kinda hit the nail on the head with the statement as a protestant. As a protestant you don’t have a relationship with your Blessed Mother so you wouldn’t understant Her Love. You wouldn’t understand Her purpose, nor would you understand Her heart. Because if you did you could never fear putting your trust is Her hands. You would know She could never bring you away from Her Son and She will always bring you towards Her Son.

You would realize that when the Holy Spirit planted the seed of salvation within Her womb that He and Her had become one flesh and one spirit. So the salvation we are trusting in is Jesus and the guidence of the Holy Ghost, She is just the vessal that houses it. They made love through God’s love and She had become the living Tabernacle that now housed Our Lord. She was made perfect and preserved perfect by God’s Grace and His Grace alone. It was only Her willingness to be obedient to God’s call that She contributed that was from Her. She is now a living and breathing vessal that has possessed not Only Baby Jesus but the perfect Love of God and His Son, the Holy Ghost. She is undefiled because of the perfect love of God.

She is an instrument just like the Tabernacle was in the days of old. All you have to do is look at the evidence that has been produced. Look what She has done and really what God has allowed Her to do. Here is a couple examples; Guadalupe and Fatima. If you researched these miracles you would see without question the fruit they have produced. You would see How She brought and continues to bring people to Jesus till this day. Any true apparition of the Blessed Mother has never steered beleivers away from Jesus.

But again I say you can’t know Her love for the Kingdom and Her Son unless you trust Her and love Her like your own Mother. And She resides in the Catholic Church. And until you trust in the teachings and beleive and receive that The Eucharist is the very Body and Blood of the Lord you will never receive and understand your Blessed Mother’s heart…The Immaculate Heart is in the Church right with baby Jesus in the Eucharist waiting for you…

Ps. Our Mothers messages have never been nothing but promoting peace and love, sounds like the devil, huh?

Peace and love unto you***

 

[Chris_LaRock]

Ps. Our Mothers messages have never been nothing but promoting peace and love, sounds like the devil, huh?

Peace and love unto you***

The new age movement promotes peace also.

 

[BMSODM]

The new age movement promotes peace also.

they promote peace away from God’s Word, She points towards God’s Word…Thats the difference*Also she bares the fruit of peace, they don’t

Again you prove my point,you can’t know the love of the Mother unless you go to the one who holds the Mother…The True Church.

She is waiting for you…

Peace****

 

[Peter_J]

Ok, I can see that. I’ll rephrase it. How many of these future saints were originally labeled heritics and then killed by church leaders?

Not very many come to mind. Joan of Arc, of course, as someone said earlier.

 

[Chris_LaRock]

they promote peace away from God’s Word, She points towards God’s Word…Thats the difference*Also she bares the fruit of peace, they don’t

Again you prove my point,you can’t know the love of the Mother unless you go to the one who holds the Mother…The True Church.

She is waiting for you…

Peace****

Once the pro-abort/pro-gay “marriage”, ect. politicians are publically excommunicated - then I can convert with a clear conscience.

 

[Realcatholicgk]

Once the pro-abort/pro-gay “marriage”, ect. politicians are publically excommunicated - then I can convert with a clear conscience.

**
Hi Chris,

I pray that you do so before you must face judgement. Your eternal salvation may hinge on your desire to be foolish. Be good, as you God is good! Do not demand things that are best left in God’s hands. I would not delay with making myself right to spite anyone. IMO, Satan gains more souls through pride than anyother means.I

Jesus dies for me, and I deserve to obtain the gift he is preparing for me, and so do you, my friend!

What a Christmas gift to Jesus, you accepting in your heart, His gift to you the real church and teachings.The powr of the Euchurist will heal all your wounds! Jesus loves us He really does, accepting His church is accepting Him fully!!

God Bless**

 

[Realcatholicgk]

Una, Blessings***

"As a Protestant, I wonder, is this worship, or just a call for Mary or the Saints to pray for us? "

You kinda hit the nail on the head with the statement as a protestant. As a protestant you don’t have a relationship with your Blessed Mother so you wouldn’t understant Her Love. You wouldn’t understand Her purpose, nor would you understand Her heart. Because if you did you could never fear putting your trust is Her hands. You would know She could never bring you away from Her Son and She will always bring you towards Her Son.

You would realize that when the Holy Spirit planted the seed of salvation within Her womb that He and Her had become one flesh and one spirit. So the salvation we are trusting in is Jesus and the guidence of the Holy Ghost, She is just the vessal that houses it. They made love through God’s love and She had become the living Tabernacle that now housed Our Lord. She was made perfect and preserved perfect by God’s Grace and His Grace alone. It was only Her willingness to be obedient to God’s call that She contributed that was from Her. She is now a living and breathing vessal that has possessed not Only Baby Jesus but the perfect Love of God and His Son, the Holy Ghost. She is undefiled because of the perfect love of God.

She is an instrument just like the Tabernacle was in the days of old. All you have to do is look at the evidence that has been produced. Look what She has done and really what God has allowed Her to do. Here is a couple examples; Guadalupe and Fatima. If you researched these miracles you would see without question the fruit they have produced. You would see How She brought and continues to bring people to Jesus till this day. Any true apparition of the Blessed Mother has never steered beleivers away from Jesus.

But again I say you can’t know Her love for the Kingdom and Her Son unless you trust Her and love Her like your own Mother. And She resides in the Catholic Church. And until you trust in the teachings and beleive and receive that The Eucharist is the very Body and Blood of the Lord you will never receive and understand your Blessed Mother’s heart…The Immaculate Heart is in the Church right with baby Jesus in the Eucharist waiting for you…

Ps. Our Mothers messages have never been nothing but promoting peace and love, sounds like the devil, huh?

Peace and love unto you***

**
Hi BM,
I struggled attempting to write an explation to una. You did GREAT! Our love for Mary is hard to explain, Others misunderstand so easily. Even when we tell them that we could never worship her because she also is a creature and God forbid that, they take admiration and distort it to be worship! As I said , you did great! Kootos!

God Bless **

 

[Realcatholicgk]

I just think it’s ironic that the same religious system that elevates people to sainthood could also be responsible for killing them in the first place.

**Hi Chris,

I said: "So what? Waiting for your point. I hope there finally is one, that it does make sense! "

I am sorry that my hope didn’t bear fruit!

I do see your point, in a distorted way. Kind of Like ~

it is ironic that the same God that provided for our salvation could be responsibile for allowing us to sin in the first place.

But are either of those statements anywhere near true? Nope!. It is ironic how you have no logical arguments. Just these Foolishness. I can tell that even you know better than that. Your heart is pure. Don’t play with God nor his church! :tsktsk:

Our society makes “Heros” out of people, The church does the same. The label saint is given to any person who is regarded as being ‘holy.’
Early in the history of the Christian Church, the term saint was applied only to those who were martyrs to the Christian faith. When a martyr died, the body would be placed in a special tomb which believers could continue to visit in the hopes of obtaining some blessing. Quite often groups of Christians would gather at the tomb of a martyr to celebrate the Eucharist.

People do evil, the church doesn’t. An example: American did not kill Martin Luther King. An American did. America made Him a hero didn’t it?
The Church never killed a saint. People did. The Church made them Saints didn’t it?

God Bless**

 

[Chris_LaRock]

**Hi Chris,

I see your point, in a distorted way. Kind of Like ~ it is ironic that the same God that provided for our salvation could be responsibile for allowing us to sin in the first place.

But are either of those statements are anywhere near true. It is ironic how you have no logical arguments. Just foolishness. I can tell that even you know better than that. Your heart is pure. Don’t play with God nor his church! :tsktsk:

Our society makes “Heros” out of people, The church does the same. The label saint is given to any person who is regarded as being ‘holy.’
Early in the history of the Christian Church, the term saint was applied only to those who were martyrs to the Christian faith. When a martyr died, the body would be placed in a special tomb which believers could continue to visit in the hopes of obtaining some blessing. Quite often groups of Christians would gather at the tomb of a martyr to celebrate the Eucharist.

People do evil, the church doesn’t. An example: American did not kill Martin Luther King. An American did. America made Him a hero didn’t it?
The Church never killed a saint. People did. The Church made them Saints didn’t it?

God Bless**

I just can’t in good conscience join a church that lets pro-abort politicians defile the body and blood of Jesus Christ by allowing them to remain in the church and take communion. Unrepentant killers who take pride in their killing don’t belong in the church.