Proof for praying to saints

[Chris_LaRock]

Realcatholicgk:
True, Jesus associated with sinners. But I doubt he condoned their sin or told them it was okay to be unrepentant.

I know I have no authority. But does one have to hold authority to hate sin and speak against it?

 

[Shlomey]

I just can’t in good conscience join a church that lets pro-abort politicians defile the body and blood of Jesus Christ by allowing them to remain in the church and take communion. Unrepentant killers who take pride in their killing don’t belong in the church.

1 Corinthians 11:27 Therefore whosoever shall eat this bread, or drink the chalice of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and of the blood of the Lord. 28 But let a man prove himself: and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of the chalice. 29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh judgment to himself, not discerning the body of the Lord.

 

[BMSODM]

True, Jesus associated with sinners. But I doubt he condoned their sin or told them it was okay to be unrepentant.

Who is condoning sin? And who has said its ok to be unrepentive?

I know I have no authority. But does one have to hold authority to hate sin and speak against it?

No, one doesnt but one does have to have authority to preserve and teach the correct teachings and doctrine of the Church. It cant go by what someone feels otherwise it will end up like the protestant denominations. Changing as often as I change my draws.

Kinda like how you keep changing topics before you finish discussing the previous one. You will never get anywere learning in that fashion. Take my advice I was were you are at. Its a stall tactic. Your cheating yourself from the Truth. take my advice start with the Eucharist as the real presence. After you accept that the rest will fall right into place…

Blessings and Grace unto you***

 

[guanophore]

True, Jesus associated with sinners. But I doubt he condoned their sin or told them it was okay to be unrepentant.

You are right, and neither does the Church.

I know I have no authority. But does one have to hold authority to hate sin and speak against it?

No, but you are finding fault with the Church with regard to pastoral decisions with regard to sinners.

Get your bishops hat, then you will have more perview.

 

[guanophore]

1 Corinthians 11:27 Therefore whosoever shall eat this bread, or drink the chalice of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and of the blood of the Lord. 28 But let a man prove himself: and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of the chalice. 29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh judgment to himself, not discerning the body of the Lord.

You are right, of course Shlomey. However, Chris reads this differently. Instead of the person examining their own conscience, he has already done it for them, and condemned them. It is a lot quicker that way.

Furthermore, he has gone on to condemn the church for allowing these persons to face the consequences of their own conscience.

 

[Chris_LaRock]

No, one doesnt but one does have to have authority to preserve and teach the correct teachings and doctrine of the Church. It cant go by what someone feels otherwise it will end up like the protestant denominations. Changing as often as I change my draws.

What do you do when those in authority don’t do what they are supposed to be doing? What do you do when Bishops aren’t excommunicating sex offenders and political leaders who forward evil agendas?

 

[BMSODM]

What do you do when those in authority don’t do what they are supposed to be doing? What do you do when Bishops aren’t excommunicating sex offenders and political leaders who forward evil agendas?

Blessings***

Oh, but they are doing what Jesus told them to do…

Mt 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Your the one who keeps rejecting Jesus words. Your leaning on your own understanding. When are you going to humbly accept what your Lord has advised you to do? Dont you know you cant pull a tare on your own? If you pull a peice of wheat then what? Do you want that innocent wheats blood on your hand?

Again start with the Eucharist, your Lord wants to feed His sheep.

Peace***

 

[guanophore]

What do you do when those in authority don’t do what they are supposed to be doing? What do you do when Bishops aren’t excommunicating sex offenders and political leaders who forward evil agendas?

You do exactly what Christ directed. First, you take the log out of your own eye, so you can see the speck that it is in theirs.

Next, you go to him and tell him his fault, and if he does not listen, you take two or three along with you. If that does not work then you talk to his superior.

Standing outside the door and yelling in “you’re doin’ it wrong” will not work.

Bishops don;t need to excommunicate sex offenders because they have already excommunicated themselves. The act in itself triggers it.

Political leaders with “evil” agendas is a pastoral matter. I hope I will never find myself in such a position. Historically, most bishops have been murdered.

 

[Chris_LaRock]

Blessings***

Oh, but they are doing what Jesus told them to do…

Mt 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Your the one who keeps rejecting Jesus words. Your leaning on your own understanding. When are you going to humbly accept what your Lord has advised you to do? Dont you know you cant pull a tare on your own? If you pull a peice of wheat then what? Do you want that innocent wheats blood on your hand?

Again start with the Eucharist, your Lord wants to feed His sheep.

Peace***

I don’t reject Jesus’ words. I’m simply saying that people who participate in evil practices should be excommunicated. Otherwise, excommunication should never have been created in the first place.

If your clergy doesn’t want to enforce it’s own teachings, and you aren’t concerned about it . . well, nothing left to be said. The cafeteria will remain open.

 

[BMSODM]

I don’t reject Jesus’ words. I’m simply saying that people who participate in evil practices should be excommunicated. Otherwise, excommunication should never have been created in the first place.

If your clergy doesn’t want to enforce it’s own teachings, and you aren’t concerned about it . . well, nothing left to be said. The cafeteria will remain open.

Blessings***

I have went over this with you already. Excommunication is for the ones who are teaching other members to do wrong. Not the doers… If someone whats to live in sin so be it if they wont listen. God will remove that tare physically in His time. Spiritually they already removed themselves… Its fine to judge there sins but not the sinner himself unless he is teaching others to follow them.

Again you are directing your own understanding wrongly. You cant refute Matt 13. The text is clear…

Again be concerned with the Real Presence that is your Key to the Kingdom…

 

[BMSODM]

If your clergy doesn’t want to enforce it’s own teachings, and you aren’t concerned about it . . well, nothing left to be said. The cafeteria will remain open.

Also if I was to leave everytime I disagreed with a teaching or a doctrine difference I would probably become a protestant. In fact I was and I did do that. I bounced through several denominations. I found that is not good fruit. All it did was promote division. So even if I did disagree with a teaching I wouldnt leave the RC because there the only ones who hold the Eucharist. That alone will keep me there. Show me why it isnt the Real Presence and maybe I would consider your veiws until then Im sold…

Peace***

 

[jlhargus]

None of the people that came to Jesus on the Bread of Life sermon, came and asked for a taste of His flesh and to drink of His blood…because they knew it was a metaphor. Just like the Samaritan woman at the well did not try to drink Jesus…

JL: True none came and asked for a taste, because they all found eating human flesh and drinking blood repellent. They understood he was speaking literally not metaphorically, that’s why many disciples stopped following him. Had I been there, I would more than likely have been one of those who walked away, thinking this guy is nuts. That would have been a test of faith I would have failed, especially not knowing, as some asked, how can he give us his flesh to eat? Had I known how, I would have stayed.

Evidently it was of paramount importance we take him at his word, our Lord wanted complete trust and faith in this teaching, he did not water it down or explain how. In reply to the question, HOW, our Lord said, Jn6:53…Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; 54 he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. 56 He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him.

Peter didn’t seem to understand, how Christ’s flesh was food indeed and his blood drink indeed. When our Lord asked if they would leave him also, Peter not knowing how, accepted trusting by faith, saying to whom will we go, you have the words of eternal life and we have come to believe and know you are the Holy One of God. Peter and at lest eleven of the apostles believed that Christ was who he revealed himself to be and trusted he could do what he said. Some of the Fathers of the Church believed this is where Judas stopped following our Lord. After Peter’s answer, our Lord said, did I not choose twelve, one of you is a devil. He spoke of Judas.

The people of Christ’s day were also outraged, when Christ claimed to be equal to God. Believing Christ was God was as impossible as some find believing he is present under appearance of bread and wind. In a sense we are both right, Catholics have the real presents as taught and you have a symbol as you teach.

As far as the woman at the well she along with all who read that passage understand clearly it is a metaphor. Christ didn’t say, my flesh is the well indeed and my blood is water indeed.

 

[jlhargus]

No, one doesnt but one does have to have authority to preserve and teach the correct teachings and doctrine of the Church. It cant go by what someone feels otherwise it will end up like the protestant denominations. Changing as often as I change my draws.***

Stop changing you draws from once a month to once a year. KIDDING

 

[jlhargus]

The renting of the temple by God exposing the Holy of Holies was the end of the OT sacrifices and the beginning of the New Covenant, where those who worship and believe in Him will be saved.

I agree it was the end of OT animal sacrifices, this is how I see the NT fulfillment of those OT sacrifices:

1Jn2:1 My little children these thing write I to you that you sin not. And IF ANY man SIN WE HAVE AN ADVOCATE WITH THE FATHER JESUS CHRIST the righteous 2 And HE IS THE PROPITIATION FOR OUR SINS and not for our’s only but also FOR the sins of THE WHOLE WORLD. [Christ is not just sitting on a throne in heaven and watching. He is our High Priest who has entered the Holy of Holies with his propitiating, atoning, blood. He ever lives as our advocate to make intercession for us. Our one mediator between God and man, as Christ is both man and God. He does this by making present and showing the Father his once for all sacrifice on the cross. It is the same once for all sacrifice of the cross made present to us. There is no re-sacrifice it is the same, once done, made present to us a memorial sacrifice, a living memorial to God our Father and also to us

Hb9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but BY HIS OWN BLOOD HE ENTERED IN ONCE into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

Ex 25:30 And you shall set the BREAD OF THE PRESENCE on the table before me always [In the old covenant the bread of the presence is placed on a table, before the presence of God above the Ark of the Covenant, in the Holy of Holies. The Temple bread of the presence is an example and shadow of Christ and his presence in the bread of life, who will stand in the midst of the throne, as a Lamb slain, showing forth and bringing to remembrance, the sacrifice of the cross, before the Father always.]

Rv 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, IN THE MIDST OF THE THRONE and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, STOOD A LAMB AS IT HAD BEEN SLAIN, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. [Our slain sacrificed Passover Lamb the Bread of Life with his atoning blood ever living and present in the true Holy of Holies, in the midst of the throne before God the Father, MEDIATING for us and making present his once for all sacrifice.

Hb 7:17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

Hb 7:24 But THIS MAN, because he CONTINUETH ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood 25 WHEREFORE HE IS ABLE TO SAVE THEM to the uttermost THAT COME unto God by him, SEEING HE ever LIVETH TO MAKE INTERCESSION FOR THEM. 26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; 27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people’s: for THIS HE DID ONCE, when he offered up himself. [Christ is not sacrificed again, but makes present (remembrance) to the Father and us, his once for all sacrifice.]

Hb 8:1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: WE HAVE SUCH AN HIGH PRIEST, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; 2 A MINISTER of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man. 3 For EVERY HIGH PRIEST IS ORDAINED TO OFFER** gifts and sacrifices **WHEREFORE it is of NECESSITY that THIS MAN HAVE **somewhat also **TO OFFER 4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law: 5 Who serve unto the EXAMPLE and SHADOW OF HEAVENLY THINGS, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount 6 BUT NOW HATH HE OBTAINED A MORE EXCELLENT MINISTRY by how much also he is the MEDIATOR of a better covenant which was established upon better promises. [Christ is not just sitting and watching events, he is our High Priest interceding for us with the Father and mediating making ever present to the Father and to us through those who stand in his stead as priests, that same once for all sacrifice of the lamb on the Cross which we eat.]

Malachi 1:11 For FROM THE RISING OF THE SUN even UNTO the GOING DOWN of the same my name shall be great AMONG THE GENTILES; and in EVERY PLACE INCENSE shall be OFFERED unto my name, AND A PURE OFFERING: for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts. [This is fulfilled in the sacrifice of the mass, a PURE OFFERING, sacramentally offered daily thru Christ our Passover slain Lamb to the Father, THIS IS MY BODY, THIS IS MY BLOOD, sacramentally showing forth the death of the Lord till he comes in glory, in all Catholic Churches around the globe.]

1COR 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even CHRIST OUR PASSOVER is sacrificed for us [The old testament sacrafices were clean, only Christ our sacrafice is pure. Christ’s sacrafice fulfilled all the OT sacrafices.]

 

[bookgirl32]

I’m wondering where Non Catholic went? He (she?) left some unanswered questions.

 

[BMSODM]

I’m wondering where Non Catholic went? He (she?) left some unanswered questions.

He was put into checkmate!!!

Game over

 

[bookgirl32]

He was put into checkmate!!!

Game over

Let’s hope he’s being open to some of this!

 

[rinnie]

A Bishop? Cool. I promise not to be a ‘pawn’ in bad behavior. (chess joke)

These “cafeteria Catholics” take pride in the fact that they are both Catholic and pro-death at the same time. I just think it would make sense to burst their little bubble of arrogance by ousting them officially. The message a lot of us are getting is that one can be an unrepentant sinner, and remain Catholic.

Well let me set the record straight Chris. No Catholic can be an unrepentant sinner as you put it and receive the Body of Christ. The Catholic Church has confession so that cannot happen.

You claim that someone can be Catholic and also be pro-death? Well here’s a shocker for ya Chris. If a person is Catholic and is not Pro-life guess what? They are not following the Catholic Religion. Do not blame the Church for the sins of the followers. The Church is perfect in every way. The followers are humans and sinners. Where is it stated in the Teachings of the RCC that its followers are perfect? You will not find it Chris. You will find one thing perfect in the RCC and it is the Church itself. The Church teaches the Truth. But as the Jesus says not all will follow the truth. If you can show me where in the RCC the teachings are false I will be willing to defend my Church. But please do not confuse the Church’s teachings with the actions of humans.

 

[Chris_LaRock]

Well let me set the record straight Chris. No Catholic can be an unrepentant sinner as you put it and receive the Body of Christ. The Catholic Church has confession so that cannot happen.

You claim that someone can be Catholic and also be pro-death? Well here’s a shocker for ya Chris. If a person is Catholic and is not Pro-life guess what? They are not following the Catholic Religion. Do not blame the Church for the sins of the followers. The Church is perfect in every way. The followers are humans and sinners. Where is it stated in the Teachings of the RCC that its followers are perfect? You will not find it Chris. You will find one thing perfect in the RCC and it is the Church itself. The Church teaches the Truth. But as the Jesus says not all will follow the truth. If you can show me where in the RCC the teachings are false I will be willing to defend my Church. But please do not confuse the Church’s teachings with the actions of humans.

It’s not really an issue with the truthfulness of doctrine. Just a failure to enforce teachings that bothers me.

What does it tell you when the most pro-abort leaders of the world can claim to belong to the pro-life church, and not be publically rebuked for it?

 

[rinnie]

It’s not really an issue with the truthfulness of doctrine. Just a failure to enforce teachings that bothers me.

What does it tell you when the most pro-abort leaders of the world can claim to belong to the pro-life church, and not be publically rebuked for it?

Well Chris you show me a Priest, Pope, Bishop, etc in the RCC that fail to teach this, or fail to live up to these teachings. Just because a Person is Catholic does not mean they practice the faith. But again show me a teacher of the faith that does not teach Pro-Life!