Proof of God from Religion

[Nihilist]

I propose a new proof of the existence of God, based on the existence of religion.

1- Most (if not all) human cultures have a tendency to recognize some Transcendental Being (though they use different names and images).

2- People in general are not ‘mugs’. Some people can be duped, but on the whole, they are pretty quick to recognize frauds and fallacies, and pointless things.

3- Therefore, there must be ‘something’ behind these religions. Either it is- the reality of some Transcendental Being (God), or at least the human need to recognize some such being (a ‘Desire-for-God’).

4-Therefore either God exists, or the ‘Desire-for-God’ exists.

5- If the latter- that the ‘Desire-for-God’ exists- God must also exist, otherwise the desire would have no object, and no direction, and would not, properly speaking, be a desire, but would manifestly be so pointless, that no one would be taken in, much less entire cultures.

6- Therefore God exists.

 

[Oreoracle]

With all due respect, the fact that your best argument is “lots of people have believed it for a long time” indicates the opposite from where I’m sitting.

 

[billcu1]

I propose a new proof of the existence of God, based on the existence of religion.

1- Most (if not all) human cultures have a tendency to recognize some Transcendental Being (though they use different names and images).

2- People in general are not ‘mugs’. Some people can be duped, but on the whole, they are pretty quick to recognize frauds and fallacies, and pointless things.

3- Therefore, there must be ‘something’ behind these religions. Either it is- the reality of some Transcendental Being (God), or at least the human need to recognize some such being (a ‘Desire-for-God’).

4-Therefore either God exists, or the ‘Desire-for-God’ exists.

5- If the latter- that the ‘Desire-for-God’ exists- God must also exist, otherwise the desire would have no object, and no direction, and would not, properly speaking, be a desire, but would manifestly be so pointless, that no one would be taken in, much less entire cultures.

6- Therefore God exists.

I disagree very muc h with your #2 postulate. People of the Masses are NOT very smart. They do as they’re told. Look at politics. There are a few smart individuals that appear and say somethings but overall people have no “far horizons” They work and want to sustain their families. There’s little thinking. They believe political rhetoeric to be facts.

What I have observed.

 

[seagal]

This sounds very similar to the Argument From Desire, as put forth by Peter Kreeft.

**Premise 1: **Every natural, innate desire in us corresponds to some real object that can satisfy that desire.
**Premise 2: **But there exists in us a desire which nothing in time, nothing on earth, no creature can satisfy.
**Conclusion: **Therefore there must exist something more than time, earth and creatures, which can satisfy this desire.

This something is what people call “God” and “life with God forever.”

You can find Kreeft’s argument in full here peterkreeft.com/topics/desire.htm

The Argument from Desire is summarized by C.S. Lewis in his book Mere Christianity.

Creatures are not born with desires unless satisfaction for these desires exists. A baby feels hunger; well, there is such a thing as food. A duckling wants to swim; well, there is such a thing as water. Men feel sexual desire; well, there is such a thing as sex. If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world. (Mere Christianity, Bk. III, chap. 10, “Hope”)

 

[Oreoracle]

On second thought, if I decline to refute your argument, some people may take that to mean it can’t be refuted. So here you go:

1- Most (if not all) human cultures have a tendency to recognize some Transcendental Being (though they use different names and images).

You’re lumping a lot of very different belief systems together here. For most of history, people were polytheists and believed in petty, minor gods; this one makes the river flow, this one watches over my family, this one presides over the whole village, etc. That’s very different than monotheism, which has realized over the years that it’s best to keep gods away from observable phenomena. Acting like the belief of polytheists somehow supports the belief of monotheists seems desperate.

2- People in general are not ‘mugs’. Some people can be duped, but on the whole, they are pretty quick to recognize frauds and fallacies, and pointless things.

Instead of looking at the popularity of beliefs in gods, let’s think about how those beliefs came about. Gods have been used for most of human history (and quite a lot today) to explain things we currently don’t understand. People feel that giving the unknown a name qualifies as knowledge, much like a student “finding x” on an algebra quiz by drawing an arrow to the symbol and exclaiming “there it is!”

Every single time gods have been postulated to explain phenomena, it was found to be wrong. And using gods as a hypothesis doesn’t even make you wrong in a useful way, like the way that falsifying an old scientific theory improves our understanding.

3- Therefore, there must be ‘something’ behind these religions. Either it is- the reality of some Transcendental Being (God), or at least the human need to recognize some such being (a ‘Desire-for-God’).

Fair enough. Either it’s true or a lot of people want it to be true, I can agree with that.

5- If the latter- that the ‘Desire-for-God’ exists- God must also exist, otherwise the desire would have no object, and no direction, and would not, properly speaking, be a desire, but would manifestly be so pointless, that no one would be taken in, much less entire cultures.

You can desire something that’s fictional; desire doesn’t have to have an extant external object. Lots of children desire to meet Santa Claus.

And people can of course be taken in by molarchy. Do you believe in fortune tellers and psychics?

 

[atheistgirl]

I propose a new proof of the existence of God, based on the existence of religion.

2- People in general are not ‘mugs’. Some people can be duped, but on the whole, they are pretty quick to recognize frauds and fallacies, and pointless things.

Televangelists?

Witch doctors?

Faith healers?

Psychics?

Astrologers?

The list is much longer.

The numbers of people who are duped by these con artists is not insignificant!

3- Therefore, there must be ‘something’ behind these religions. Either it is- the reality of some Transcendental Being (God), or at least the human need to recognize some such being (a ‘Desire-for-God’).

It has to be one or the other?

It can’t be fear, insecurity or ignorance?

4-Therefore either God exists, or the ‘Desire-for-God’ exists.

Huh?

5- If the latter- that the ‘Desire-for-God’ exists- God must also exist, otherwise the desire would have no object, and no direction, and would not, properly speaking, be a desire, but would manifestly be so pointless, that no one would be taken in, much less entire cultures.

You mean like the millions and millions of people who believed that the god of thunder, rain, sea, storms, lightening, sun, moon etc at all existed at one time?

6- Therefore God exists.

Um, no!

What exists is our natural desire to thrive as a species, which requires understanding and explaining what’s happening around us.

Those explanations of what seems incredible would naturally include some kind of supernatural power, until more inquiring minds cracked the code



Sarah x

 

[meltzerboy]

I propose a new proof of the existence of God, based on the existence of religion.

1- Most (if not all) human cultures have a tendency to recognize some Transcendental Being (though they use different names and images).

2- People in general are not ‘mugs’. Some people can be duped, but on the whole, they are pretty quick to recognize frauds and fallacies, and pointless things.

3- Therefore, there must be ‘something’ behind these religions. Either it is- the reality of some Transcendental Being (God), or at least the human need to recognize some such being (a ‘Desire-for-God’).

4-Therefore either God exists, or the ‘Desire-for-God’ exists.

5- If the latter- that the ‘Desire-for-God’ exists- God must also exist, otherwise the desire would have no object, and no direction, and would not, properly speaking, be a desire, but would manifestly be so pointless, that no one would be taken in, much less entire cultures.

6- Therefore God exists.

I don’t think the desire-for-G-d necessarily proves the existence of G-d. One may have the desire for many things which are unrealistic and even irrational.

 

[Nihilist]

I disagree very muc h with your #2 postulate. People of the Masses are NOT very smart. They do as they’re told. Look at politics. There are a few smart individuals that appear and say somethings but overall people have no “far horizons” They work and want to sustain their families. There’s little thinking. They believe political rhetoeric to be facts.

What I have observed.

Televangelists?

Witch doctors?

Faith healers?

Psychics?

Astrologers?

The list is much longer.

The numbers of people who are duped by these con artists is not insignificant!

I agree that many people can be duped- but for Christianity to dupe the whole of Western Europe for almost 2,000 years? Or Islam to dupe the whole Middle East?

Such a phenomenon would imply a highly organized, intelligent group of ‘con-artists’ and a highly credible group of ‘mugs’. But this simply cannot be the case, since, although there are differences in intelligence between people, there is not a radical or discrete separation between ‘cons’ and ‘mugs’. Moreover, any fraud really can’t last that long. Truth has a way of coming through. What’s more, people (of whatever level of intelligence) have an ‘instinct’ against being ‘duped’…

 

[Oreoracle]

I’m not sure that any “duping” has been necessary in the history of religion. Most religious people I know are content to believe what they want on the basis of faith. How can you dupe someone who isn’t asking for evidence or any verification of their beliefs in the first place?

Another problem is that religions, particularly the prominent ones, have become bureaucratic. Take the Catholic Church for example. You could point out any number of heinous acts and hoaxes done in the name of Catholicism, but the Church can easily deflect the blame because the central authority figures weren’t the ones who committed those crimes.

 

[Ion]

Every culture had a sense of the reality of the supernatural. People understood the cause-effect relationship, and when things happened differently people suspected the intervention of the supernatural. That doesn’t mean there were not some people trying to take advantage of the others, nor did they not make mistakes, and this mistakes are used by the atheists to discredit any supernatural intervention.
Unfortunately much of the historical details of the religions are lost, and here again atheists feel they can fill up the gaps any way they want: what follows is that our ancestors must have been a bunch of total idiots in order to be religious. But all anthropologists agree that our ancestors were as intelligent as we are today.

 

[Aloysium]

I propose a new proof of the existence of God, based on the existence of religion.

1- Most (if not all) human cultures have a tendency to recognize some Transcendental Being (though they use different names and images).

2- People in general are not ‘mugs’. Some people can be duped, but on the whole, they are pretty quick to recognize frauds and fallacies, and pointless things.

3- Therefore, there must be ‘something’ behind these religions. Either it is- the reality of some Transcendental Being (God), or at least the human need to recognize some such being (a ‘Desire-for-God’).

4-Therefore either God exists, or the ‘Desire-for-God’ exists.

5- If the latter- that the ‘Desire-for-God’ exists- God must also exist, otherwise the desire would have no object, and no direction, and would not, properly speaking, be a desire, but would manifestly be so pointless, that no one would be taken in, much less entire cultures.

6- Therefore God exists.

Re: 2.
We exist as part of one humanity seeking fulfillment, Life, the Truth, Love and Beauty together. We share the fruits of our relationship with Reality. Unfortunately, there is evil in this world and some (many?) use their brothers and sisters for their own ends. However, I would suggest that once one sets off on the path towards God, that relationship grows, and one’s faith, a gift of the Holy Spirit (Did I just turn off a bunch of readers?) makes it ever clearer what is Truth.

 

[Partinobodycula]

I agree that many people can be duped- but for Christianity to dupe the whole of Western Europe for almost 2,000 years? Or Islam to dupe the whole Middle East?

Such a phenomenon would imply a highly organized, intelligent group of ‘con-artists’ and a highly credible group of ‘mugs’. But this simply cannot be the case, since, although there are differences in intelligence between people, there is not a radical or discrete separation between ‘cons’ and ‘mugs’. Moreover, any fraud really can’t last that long. Truth has a way of coming through. What’s more, people (of whatever level of intelligence) have an ‘instinct’ against being ‘duped’…

The truth is that people are idiots, and this forum is a perfect example of that fact. Other than the odd rational agnostic or two, this site is populated by people with no ability to rationally analyze anything, especially their own beliefs. But it’s by no means the only example of such ignorance available on the web. Any website that encourages people to espouse their own personal opinions will reveal the low level of intelligence common among the vast majority of humans. People are stupid. Duping them is exceedingly easy, and requires no more than an appeal to their own propensity for self-delusion. People believe what they want to believe, and no amount of reasoning or evidence can change that. You just can’t fix stupid. Fortunately, at least in the USA, you can for the most part ignore it, or even profit from it.

what follows is that our ancestors must have been a bunch of total idiots in order to be religious. But all anthropologists agree that our ancestors were as intelligent as we are today.

There is absolutely no reason to believe that we are any more intelligent now, than our ancient ancestors were, and in fact studies have shown that the level of intelligence among humans has actually declined over the last century. People are getting measurably dumber. This bodes well for religion I suppose, but doesn’t inspire a great deal of optimism as far as the future of humanity goes. On the other hand religious belief tends to decline with one’s level of education, so there may be some reason for optimism.

Any appeal to the collective intelligence of humans as evidence for the existence of the supernatural is ludicrous. For as I say, people are idiots. They’ll believe just about anything.

 

[Ion]

The truth is that people are idiots, and this forum is a perfect example of that fact. Other than the odd rational agnostic or two, this site is populated by people with no ability to rationally analyze anything, especially their own beliefs. But it’s by no means the only example of such ignorance available on the web. …

"I me and myself " bla bla bla bla

…
For as I say, people are idiots. They’ll believe just about anything.

Interesting enough, nobody believes you.

 

[Nihilist]

The truth is that people are idiots, and this forum is a perfect example of that fact. Other than the odd rational agnostic or two, this site is populated by people with no ability to rationally analyze anything, especially their own beliefs. But it’s by no means the only example of such ignorance available on the web. Any website that encourages people to espouse their own personal opinions will reveal the low level of intelligence common among the vast majority of humans. People are stupid. Duping them is exceedingly easy, and requires no more than an appeal to their own propensity for self-delusion. People believe what they want to believe, and no amount of reasoning or evidence can change that. You just can’t fix stupid. Fortunately, at least in the USA, you can for the most part ignore it, or even profit from it.

There is absolutely no reason to believe that we are any more intelligent now, than our ancient ancestors were, and in fact studies have shown that the level of intelligence among humans has actually declined over the last century. People are getting measurably dumber. This bodes well for religion I suppose, but doesn’t inspire a great deal of optimism as far as the future of humanity goes. On the other hand religious belief tends to decline with one’s level of education, so there may be some reason for optimism.

Any appeal to the collective intelligence of humans as evidence for the existence of the supernatural is ludicrous. For as I say, people are idiots. They’ll believe just about anything.

But surely, since you (presumably) are also a human being, you, by definition are part of that collective who will believe just about anything…

 

[atheistgirl]

I agree that many people can be duped- but for Christianity to dupe the whole of Western Europe for almost 2,000 years? Or Islam to dupe the whole Middle East?

I know several Christians who would contend that Muslims have indeed been duped for this length of time.

Of course they wouldn’t make the same contention for themselves.

Such a phenomenon would imply a highly organized, intelligent group of ‘con-artists’ and a highly credible group of ‘mugs’. But this simply cannot be the case, since, although there are differences in intelligence between people, there is not a radical or discrete separation between ‘cons’ and ‘mugs’. Moreover, any fraud really can’t last that long. Truth has a way of coming through. What’s more, people (of whatever level of intelligence) have an ‘instinct’ against being ‘duped’…

What we all share is a common desire to understand the world around us and what we are experiencing.

So this will, naturally, be common to all people at all times.

Initially such explanations included the Supernatural because it’s all we could think of to explain wind, rain, fire, thunder, lightening and so on.

It’s easy to see where belief in the supernatural comes from and why we’re so predisposed to such beliefs.

The fact that religions exist doesn’t really get us any closer to a proof there’s a god, much less the Personal God of Christianity.

Sarah x

 

[Nihilist]

I know several Christians who would contend that Muslims have indeed been duped for this length of time.

Of course they wouldn’t make the same contention for themselves.

What we all share is a common desire to understand the world around us and what we are experiencing.

So this will, naturally, be common to all people at all times.

Initially such explanations included the Supernatural because it’s all we could think of to explain wind, rain, fire, thunder, lightening and so on.

It’s easy to see where belief in the supernatural comes from and why we’re so predisposed to such beliefs.

The fact that religions exist doesn’t really get us any closer to a proof there’s a god, much less the Personal God of Christianity.

Sarah x

Imagine a particular medicine, which had no good effect. Now, it is conceivable that people might be fooled into taking it for a while. But could whole cultures be fooled into taking it, for centuries? Now, if this medicine were religion, if there were no God, it would have no active ingredient…

Now, as you mention, belief in the supernatural is something to which humans are pre-disposed. Well, if we’re pre-disposed to it, isn’t that a pretty good reason to go with it?

I mean, if religion is a natural human propensity (like art, or language, or community), isn’t it manifestly better that we should accept it and follow the tendency, in it’s best form?

 

[atheistgirl]

Imagine a particular medicine, which had no good effect. Now, it is conceivable that people might be fooled into taking it for a while. But could whole cultures be fooled into taking it, for centuries? Now, if this medicine were religion, if there were no God, it would have no active ingredient…

In much the same way cultures have been going to witch doctors for centuries?

Now, as you mention, belief in the supernatural is something to which humans are pre-disposed. Well, if we’re pre-disposed to it, isn’t that a pretty good reason to go with it?

Some people are predisposed to all sorts of things.

Depression

Alcohol abuse

Gambling

Paranoia

The numbers of people world wide suffering from any of the above is in the millions.

This doesn’t mean their predisposition is a good thing.

I mean, if religion is a natural human propensity (like art, or language, or community), isn’t it manifestly better that we should accept it and follow the tendency, in it’s best form?

What do you say to the millions on Hindus predisposed to their beliefs in their gods?

Your pre-disposition is better than their pre-disposition?

The fact we have this predisposition and the fact there have been so many faith and belief systems over time, and continue to exist and the fact that fMRI scanning of the brains of believers and non-believers has shown the same area language, emotional and self-representation areas of the brain to be at work in both, tells me, at least, it is us that have created these gods, not that these gods created us.

Sarah x

 

[Ion]

I know several Christians who would contend that Muslims have indeed been duped for this length of time.
…
What we all share is a common desire to understand the world around us and what we are experiencing.

So this will, naturally, be common to all people at all times.

Initially such explanations included the Supernatural because it’s all we could think of to explain wind, rain, fire, thunder, lightening and so on.

It’s easy to see where belief in the supernatural comes from and why we’re so predisposed to such beliefs.
…
Sarah x

Muhammad was a wealthy merchant and caravan leader. He had everything he wanted and was possible to buy. All of a sudden in his 40’s he starts another path, as a religious leader. He starts to recite by hearth the Koran. He did have to repeat it by hearth many times because he did not know how to read and write. Something supernatural happened to him in that cave and it was not anxiety because he did not understand why is lightning before raining. This is an atheist mistake “could think of to explain wind, rain, fire, thunder, lightening and so on.”. People knew and used nature.

 

[oldcelt]

“Gone With the Wind” was attended by more people than any film in human history. What does that prove? That people liked the film. What does religion prove? That many humans like to get together. By this theory, the entertainment industry must be holy because I suspect that more people attend films, concerts, sporting events and plays than church.

When John Lennon said that the Beatles were more popular than Jesus Christ, he was merely telling the truth at that moment.

 

[atheistgirl]

He starts to recite by hearth the Koran.

It was given in small verses over time and he had others learn them and write them down.

This is an atheist mistake “could think of to explain wind, rain, fire, thunder, lightening and so on.”. People knew and used nature.

I said explain, not know how to use.

So, the people of Carthage didn’t offer child sacrifices via the Priestly Class to their gods of the sea for safe passage?

Stager, Lawrence; Samuel. R. Wolff (1984). “Child sacrifice in Carthage: religious rite or population control?”. Journal of Biblical Archeological Review. January: 31–46.

Perhaps they were wrong about the child sacrifices after all.

As would then be Tertullian’s claims.

Along with many others.

Sarah x