Proof of God from Religion

[Charlemagne_III]

So, now we are proving god by the fact that people worship one? Which God? Whose interpretation? Sounds like a wonderful free-for-all to me.

Nor does it make sense, by this logic, that we have proven there is no god by not worshiping God.

Nature plants instincts in us for a reason. The instinct to believe in a Higher Power is virtually universal. We don’t all worship the same Higher Power, but that is not an argument against the existence of a Higher Power. Even atheists, mostly by their own admission, find themselves pre-occupied with God. There’s just no getting around Him!

 

[Oreoracle]

Nature plants instincts in us for a reason. The instinct to believe in a Higher Power is virtually universal.

Instinct and intuition are overrated. It is our instinct that heavier objects fall faster than lighter ones. It is our instinct that infinite series can’t converge to a finite number. It is our instinct that time is absolute rather than relative. Optical illusions are the result of instinct. Stereotypes are “obviously true”.

This reminds me of a quote (I paraphrase it slightly) from a book on logic: “Nothing gets in the way of logic more than people’s real-world experience. People get so accustomed to seeing certain things associated with each other that they don’t think of the relationships carefully.”

 

[PRmerger]

Instinct and intuition are overrated.

The CC gives instinct and intuition its proper due. It neither overrates them, nor underrates them. Rather, the rating it gives instinct and intuition is “just right”.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Instinct and intuition are overrated. It is our instinct that heavier objects fall faster than lighter ones. It is our instinct that infinite series can’t converge to a finite number. It is our instinct that time is absolute rather than relative. Optical illusions are the result of instinct. Stereotypes are “obviously true.”

I’m sure you don’t mean to argue that most instincts are useless or deceptive.

All the instances you provide have to do with our temporal world, and yes we know how the senses can deceive us. But how do the senses deceive us about the possibility of a supernatural world that we grasp not only by reason but as well by imagination?

As Pascal put it, the heart (imagination and desire) has reasons that reason cannot grasp. Those reasons are not false just because reason cannot fully grasp them.

It may also have instincts that reason can only dimly grasp, but that reason can constantly seek to grasp … a phenomenon much observed at Catholic Answers.

 

[Partinobodycula]

":

What they invest in is hope, and purpose, and meaning. Religion “works”, it persists, because it gives men a rationalization for the injustice and cruelty of life. There is spirituality and religion because there is self-awareness, and with it comes a need for meaning and purpose within the futility of our own existence. Men create God, because without Him, life is too painful. Religion persists because it offers comfort and hope.

Those all sound like compelling reasons to be religious, to me.

A freely admit that there is no certainty. But if religious beliefs give life a little meaning, makes the pain of living bearable, what better reason could then be then for adopting them.

In the absence of certainty, choose which ever is the most tolerable option. Either life is a pointless episode of random suffering, or there is a God who will answer everything in the fullness of time…

I hope it’s the second.

I agree, and it would be interesting to hear equally compelling reasons for being an atheist.

I’m not sure that either of you fully understands the implications of the statement with which you seem to be in such complete agreement. Yes, people find in religion a means to cope with the cruelty and suffering of life, but each of us, in our own way, does exactly the same thing. You, me, everybody, we’re all coping with the injustices of life. We’re all looking to find comfort, and hope, and meaning. You find it in your God, and in your religion. While others find it in theirs’. The Muslim in Pakistan. The Jew in Israel. The Christian in America. Even the atheists and agnostics, they’re all trying to make sense of the world. They’re all doing the very same thing, for the very same reason, life is cruel.

You may believe that you have found the right way, or maybe just a better way, but there are millions of peaceful Muslims who believe that it’s they who have found the better way, it’s they who have found the right way. And who’s to say that they’re wrong? Can you? Really? For if you’re honest with yourself, you don’t even know for certain if your God is real, or if your religion is true. You’re walking by faith, just as they are. So how are you better? How is your hope more comforting than their hope? How is your faith more assuring than their faith?

The belief in God is common among men, because suffering is common among men, and within that suffering men must find hope. If not in this world, then in another. If not by their own hand, then by the hand of one greater than themselves. Men believe because above all else, they must persevere. In spite of all of the injustices and cruelties of life, they must endure. And so they believe.

That fact that men believe, is not evidence that there is a God, it’s evidence of the indomitable spirit of men.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Men create God, because without Him, life is too painful. Religion persists because it offers comfort and hope.

God creates men, and without Him life is too painful. Religion persists because God, not religion, offers us comfort and hope.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

That fact that men believe, is not evidence that there is a God, it’s evidence of the indomitable spirit of men.

Men only have an indomitable spirit because God gave it to them.

And have you come up with some compelling reasons for being an atheist?

 

[PRmerger]

You may believe that you have found the right way, or maybe just a better way, but there are millions of peaceful Muslims who believe that it’s they who have found the better way, it’s they who have found the right way. And who’s to say that they’re wrong? Can you? Really? For if you’re honest with yourself, you don’t even know for certain if your God is real, or if your religion is true. You’re walking by faith, just as they are. So how are you better? How is your hope more comforting than their hope? How is your faith more assuring than their faith?

The belief in God is common among men, because suffering is common among men, and within that suffering men must find hope. If not in this world, then in another. If not by their own hand, then by the hand of one greater than themselves. Men believe because above all else, they must persevere. In spite of all of the injustices and cruelties of life, they must endure. And so they believe.

That fact that men believe, is not evidence that there is a God, it’s evidence of the indomitable spirit of men.

When you posit the above, are you not also walking by faith in your assertions?

How is your assertion more assuring than ours?

How do you know for certain that your position is the correct one?

 

[meltzerboy]

When you posit the above, are you not also walking by faith in your assertions?

How is your assertion more assuring than ours?

How do you know for certain that your position is the correct one?

I think that’s the point s/he is making, PRMerger. None of us knows for certain so we all walk by our own faith, including atheists and agnostics.

 

[Nihilist]

I’m not sure that either of you fully understands the implications of the statement with which you seem to be in such complete agreement. Yes, people find in religion a means to cope with the cruelty and suffering of life, but each of us, in our own way, does exactly the same thing. You, me, everybody, we’re all coping with the injustices of life. We’re all looking to find comfort, and hope, and meaning. You find it in your God, and in your religion. While others find it in theirs’. The Muslim in Pakistan. The Jew in Israel. The Christian in America. Even the atheists and agnostics, they’re all trying to make sense of the world. They’re all doing the very same thing, for the very same reason, life is cruel.

You may believe that you have found the right way, or maybe just a better way, but there are millions of peaceful Muslims who believe that it’s they who have found the better way, it’s they who have found the right way. And who’s to say that they’re wrong? Can you? Really? For if you’re honest with yourself, you don’t even know for certain if your God is real, or if your religion is true. You’re walking by faith, just as they are. So how are you better? How is your hope more comforting than their hope? How is your faith more assuring than their faith?

The belief in God is common among men, because suffering is common among men, and within that suffering men must find hope. If not in this world, then in another. If not by their own hand, then by the hand of one greater than themselves. Men believe because above all else, they must persevere. In spite of all of the injustices and cruelties of life, they must endure. And so they believe.

That fact that men believe, is not evidence that there is a God, it’s evidence of the indomitable spirit of men.

I agree with what you say. Well, it shows that human being need something to believe. In those context, perhaps ‘objective truth’ can be dismissed as a meaningless phantom, and instead we can take whatever system ‘works for us’. Marx describes religion as “the opium of the people”. Well, what’s wrong with opium?

Empirically, there are only two certainties for humans: the pain of living, and the fact of death. ‘Lucid despair’ can also be a form of Faith. It’s actually not the worst option…

Strangely, enough, though, I haven’t come across many atheists who advocate ‘lucid despair’, or ‘nihilism’. I wonder why not?

I say all this, not denying my belief in the Truth of the Catholic Faith, but at least conceding that its untruth is possible. But even if it were not true (which we can never know for sure, anyway), it’s a pretty good option for living.

 

[PRmerger]

I think that’s the point s/he is making, PRMerger. None of us knows for certain so we all walk by our own faith, including atheists and agnostics.

So why should I consider anything that this person who is so uncertain about her position is saying?

Imagine if I walked up to a stranger and asked for directions to the nearest church and she told me, “Well, I can give you directions. But who’s to say that I’m right? For if I’m honest with myself, I really don’t know for certain if these directions are correct. Why are you asking me? Could my directions be any better than this other guy on the next corner?”

Do you think any reasonable person would be blamed for totally dismissing this person’s assistance?

Note to all those who are unable to think in the abstract:
Please, please, please do NOT tell me that this poster is not offering directions.

The above is simply an analogy. I am NOT making any comparison to this poster being here to provide directions. The similarity lies only in this: both would be offering their thoughts. If one is so uncertain about her ability to know the truth, then we ought to dismiss her opinions and look for someone who is, at least, partially sure that what she is offering is correct.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

I say all this, not denying my belief in the Truth of the Catholic Faith, but at least conceding that** its untruth is possible**. But even if it were not true (which we can never know for sure, anyway), it’s a pretty good option for living.

I hope to God you don’t evolve toward the view that it’s untruth is likely.

 

[Bradski]

But how do the senses deceive us about the possibility of a supernatural world that we grasp not only by reason but as well by imagination.

I don’t think there has ever been a civilisation that did not have a religion. In fact, I would go as far to say that there has never been a social group of people since we were able to string a few thoughts together that didn’t have a belief in the supernatural.

The number would run into the billions and unless I’m mistaken, you would say that the instincts of every single one of them (apart from your own religion) were deceived.

Your only logical position is that ‘everyone has been deceived except us Christians’.

 

[Oreoracle]

I’m sure you don’t mean to argue that most instincts are useless or deceptive.

Not useless. In fact, I would say that instincts are geared mostly toward utility rather than truth.

For example, they have done studies on how young children estimate quantities. If you lay out 9 objects in a row and ask which is the one in the middle, children tend to point at the 3rd one (or 7th, depending on your perspective). This is because the brain estimates logarithmically, not arithmetically. This allows the brain to distinguish a wide variety of phenomena because logarithms can accept large (name removed by moderator)uts without growing too unwieldy themselves. This isn’t very useful when it comes to doing arithmetic, however. In fact it’s a hindrance.

So the instinct is quite bad for ascertaining truth, but good for survival.

All the instances you provide have to do with our temporal world, and yes we know how the senses can deceive us. But how do the senses deceive us about the possibility of a supernatural world that we grasp not only by reason but as well by imagination?

Actually I did provide an example that pertained only to reason: the convergence of an infinite series to a finite number. In fact, our instincts are ill-equipped to deal with almost anything involving infinity.

 

[PRmerger]

The number would run into the billions and unless I’m mistaken, you would say that the instincts of every single one of them (apart from your own religion) were deceived.

Wow.

Your only logical position is that ‘everyone has been deceived except us Christians’.

About belief in a higher power? That something exists beyond us? Not at all.

The fact that billions and billions of souls have a shared believed in the Numinous ought to give atheists pause, to be sure.

 

[meltzerboy]

So why should I consider anything that this person who is so uncertain about her position is saying?

Imagine if I walked up to a stranger and asked for directions to the nearest church and she told me, “Well, I can give you directions. But who’s to say that I’m right? For if I’m honest with myself, I really don’t know for certain if these directions are correct. Why are you asking me? Could my directions be any better than this other guy on the next corner?”

Do you think any reasonable person would be blamed for totally dismissing this person’s assistance?

Note to all those who are unable to think in the abstract:
Please, please, please do NOT tell me that this poster is not offering directions.

The above is simply an analogy. I am NOT making any comparison to this poster being here to provide directions. The similarity lies only in this: both would be offering their thoughts. If one is so uncertain about her ability to know the truth, then we ought to dismiss her opinions and look for someone who is, at least, partially sure that what she is offering is correct.

Point taken. I agree with this.

 

[PRmerger]

Point taken. I agree with this.

You’re the best, friend! :tiphat:

 

[Bradski]

The fact that billions and billions of souls have a shared believed in the Numinous ought to give atheists pause, to be sure.

If they all shared exactly the same thing, then it would have given me pause for thought. That they didn’t tells me that there’s a human need to believe that there’s something better other than this brutal old world. As someone said:

I think when we look at the world today it’s obvious to me that something is wrong with us! This is NOT how we were meant to be!

That crie de coeur has been heard throughout the ages.

 

[PRmerger]

If they all shared exactly the same thing, then it would have given me pause for thought.

Fair enough.

There is a shared belief in the Numinous.

I hope it does give you pause.

That they didn’t tells me that there’s a human need to believe that there’s something better other than this brutal old world:

Again, a belief in the Numinous is pretty much universal. Billions and billions of folks, some of them pretty dern intelligent.

 

[Aloysium]

. . . Again, a belief in the Numinous is pretty much universal. Billions and billions of folks, some of them pretty dern intelligent.

This being a philosophy forum, a perhaps greater value tends to attributed to intelligence than it deserves.

I have observed that people tend to become atheists for a variety of reasons, none of which is essentially rational. If it were, the person would have an open mind.

I find I can connect with Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims, people who have a shamanistic understanding, and just plain “spiritual” people. There is never any anger towards my position, and I find an intimacy develops in the atmosphere of mutual respect and understanding. I learn a lot. I don’t get the assertions that one sees on the forums, where I am told what it is I believe and then am presented with an argument regarding all the inconsistencies they find in their fantasy about my beliefs.

That intelligent people use their God-given ability to argue themselves out of a relationship with God is quite tragic.
That many scientists are atheist is an unfortunate consequence of a lifetime of working daily in an atmosphere that values only what can be measured and manipulated. These people are intelligent, but lost. Intelligence can be a curse.