Proof of God from Religion

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You have invoked a sweeping generalization fallacy. Assuming that what is true of the group as a whole, is also true of each of its individual components. As my profile shows, I’m a solipsist. I accept nothing on faith. I believe to be true, only that which I know to be true.

I’m not like you. I’m atypical. You’re prototypical.

The O.P’s premise is flawed for two reasons. 1. People are idiots, and are prone to believing almost anything. 2. Spirituality carries with it very powerful evolutionary advantages, which makes its prevalence the likely result of simple natural selection.
Though I would word it differently, I generally agree with you. I think that some people are afraid to venture beyond the comfortable bounds of what they have been taught. Heck, they may even find that they were correct all along, but refuse to look on the chance that their beliefs have been at least partially inaccurate.
 
You have invoked a sweeping generalization fallacy. Assuming that what is true of the group as a whole, is also true of each of its individual components. As my profile shows, I’m a solipsist. I accept nothing on faith. I believe to be true, only that which I know to be true.
That is a contradictory statement- “I believe x, only if I know x”. In fact, the best you can assert is that “I believe I know x”.
I’m not like you. I’m atypical. You’re prototypical.
Perhaps you’re typical, insofar as you aspire to be atypical? If you are a solipist, my existence, and my argument, are products of YOUR mind. Therefore you are only disagreeing with yourself.
The O.P’s premise is flawed for two reasons. 1. People are idiots, and are prone to believing almost anything. 2. Spirituality carries with it very powerful evolutionary advantages, which makes its prevalence the likely result of simple natural selection.
Wouldn’t reason 2- the advantages of spirituality- by a compelling reason to adopt it?
 
Natural philosophers believed in Aristotelean metaphysics for going on 2,000 years. Much of it was pure speculation.
The question was, " Proof of God from Religion. " The three religions of Christianity, Islam, and Judaism are based on the direct Revelation of God, who cannot lie. Therefore these religions function as absolute proofs that God, the Almighty, creator of heaven and hell, the one Supreme Being, who is eternal and uncaused in his own Being, and absolutely other than his creation, and absolutely Goodness in his Being, does indeed exist.

We cannot help it if some people have not seen the " Light. "

Linus2nd
 
The question was, " Proof of God from Religion. " The three religions of Christianity, Islam, and Judaism are based on the direct Revelation of God, who cannot lie. Therefore these religions function as absolute proofs that God, the Almighty, creator of heaven and hell, the one Supreme Being, who is eternal and uncaused in his own Being, and absolutely other than his creation, and absolutely Goodness in his Being, does indeed exist.

We cannot help it if some people have not seen the " Light. "

Linus2nd
If you read more closely, you will see that I was responding to Nihilist’s contention that people can’t be fooled for long periods of time. People believed in Aristotle’s metaphysics without question for almost 2,000 years until early scientists like Galileo came along and showed that (for example) the moon is not made of ether and rocks don’t have wills (Newton).

You’re begining with the premise that the monotheistic religions are revealed by God. Someone who’s not a part of those religions isn’t going to believe that these religions bear truth via supernatural revelation. It’s a circular argument.
 
Wouldn’t reason 2- the advantages of spirituality- by a compelling reason to adopt it?
Bigotry, greed, paranoia, intolerance, arrogance, infidelity, indifference, all of theses things may have at some point in our past been evolutionarily advantageous as well, would you have me adopt them also?

Spirituality is not without its merits, but being evidence for God is not one of them. Plus there is a huge difference between spirituality and religion. Religion is the befoulment of spirituality.
The question was, " Proof of God from Religion. " The three religions of Christianity, Islam, and Judaism are based on the direct Revelation of God, who cannot lie. Therefore these religions function as absolute proofs that God, the Almighty, creator of heaven and hell, the one Supreme Being, who is eternal and uncaused in his own Being, and absolutely other than his creation, and absolutely Goodness in his Being, does indeed exist.

We cannot help it if some people have not seen the " Light. "

Linus2nd
Millions of people have died because of the arrogance of people such as this. The greatest shortcoming of religion, is that it’s administered by men who take the authority of their supposed God and proclaim it as their own.
 
If you read more closely, you will see that I was responding to Nihilist’s contention that people can’t be fooled for long periods of time. People believed in Aristotle’s metaphysics without question for almost 2,000 years until early scientists like Galileo came along and showed that (for example) the moon is not made of ether and rocks don’t have wills (Newton).

You’re begining with the premise that the monotheistic religions are revealed by God. Someone who’s not a part of those religions isn’t going to believe that these religions bear truth via supernatural revelation. It’s a circular argument.
What I mean by saying that people can’t be fooled for a long period, is not that they can’t have beliefs which are later corrected (as in the case of science), but that they will not continue to invest time and effort into beliefs that don’t, at some level, work.

I think a deep instinct for self-survival prevent people from being taken advantage off- indeed, often more simple people are harder to fool (when money, time, or effort is involved), than the more educated.
 
If you read more closely, you will see that I was responding to Nihilist’s contention that people can’t be fooled for long periods of time. People believed in Aristotle’s metaphysics without question for almost 2,000 years until early scientists like Galileo came along and showed that (for example) the moon is not made of ether and rocks don’t have wills (Newton).

You’re begining with the premise that the monotheistic religions are revealed by God. Someone who’s not a part of those religions isn’t going to believe that these religions bear truth via supernatural revelation. It’s a circular argument.
If you read Aristotle closely, it does not necessarily depend on his view of Celestial Mechanics, rather it depends on the fact that motion exists. However, revealed religion does not depend on any philosophy, it depends on the reasonableness of Revelation itself. But of course this reasonableness will not be apparent to all - as you point out. It does require the " Light " of faith. But the this " Light " or grace will be given to all who are open to it. So it is " circular " only to those who are not open to this grace.

Linus2nd
 
Spirituality is not without its merits, but being evidence for God is not one of them. Plus there is a huge difference between spirituality and religion. Religion is the befoulment of spirituality.
This is not an argument against the thesis as I have restricted it. And of course belief in God’s existence is not a magic bullet against sin.
Millions of people have died because of the arrogance of people such as this. The greatest shortcoming of religion, is that it’s administered by men who take the authority of their supposed God and proclaim it as their own.
Religion does not excuse believers from using discrimination, nor are the " leaders " excused from being honest and truthful in their interpretation of what has been revealed by the Divine.

Linus2nd
 
The three religions of Christianity, Islam, and Judaism are based on the direct Revelation of God, who cannot lie. Therefore these religions function as absolute proofs that God, the Almighty, creator of heaven and hell, the one Supreme Being, who is eternal and uncaused in his own Being, and absolutely other than his creation, and absolutely Goodness in his Being, does indeed exist.
The problem with this statement isn’t just that there is no way that you can prove to the “unenlightened” that it’s true, but more importantly, it’s that there is no way that you yourself can know if it’s true. But it seems to be impossible for you to admit that. This inability to admit that one may be wrong, this lack of humility, makes enlightenment, at best seem like self-delusion, and at worst seem like arrogance.

Can you admit that there is no way that you can know for certain if the God of Abraham truly exists? If you can’t do that, then your words are not worth listening to, for they lack the honest acceptance of your own fallibility. You’re human, you’re not God, you can be wrong, especially when you have invested so much in being right.
What I mean by saying that people can’t be fooled for a long period, is not that they can’t have beliefs which are later corrected (as in the case of science), but that they will not continue to invest time and effort into beliefs that don’t, at some level, work.
What they invest in is hope, and purpose, and meaning. Religion “works”, it persists, because it gives men a rationalization for the injustice and cruelty of life. There is spirituality and religion because there is self-awareness, and with it comes a need for meaning and purpose within the futility of our own existence. Men create God, because without Him, life is too painful. Religion persists because it offers comfort and hope.
 
The problem with this statement isn’t just that there is no way that you can prove to the “unenlightened” that it’s true, but more importantly, it’s that there is no way that you yourself can know if it’s true. But it seems to be impossible for you to admit that. This inability to admit that one may be wrong, this lack of humility, makes enlightenment, at best seem like self-delusion, and at worst seem like arrogance.

Can you admit that there is no way that you can know for certain if the God of Abraham truly exists? If you can’t do that, then your words are not worth listening to, for they lack the honest acceptance of your own fallibility. You’re human, you’re not God, you can be wrong, especially when you have invested so much in being right.

What they invest in is hope, and purpose, and meaning. Religion “works”, it persists, because it gives men a rationalization for the injustice and cruelty of life. There is spirituality and religion because there is self-awareness, and with it comes a need for meaning and purpose within the futility of our own existence. Men create God, because without Him, life is too painful. Religion persists because it offers comfort and hope.
There is no denying that religion offers purpose, meaning, comfort and hope to humankind’s existence in this life. However, it also offers things which may be a little less pleasant since they are more rigorous and difficult to practice, such as a sense of shared moral responsibility within a framework of social justice, the self-discipline imposed by rules and regulations, and the notions of sin and punishment when these rules and regulations are not followed. Why would humans take on these aspects of religion, which, in a sense, make their earthly life so much more difficult, without even the assurance of an eternal reward in some cases? This is not offered as a proof of G-d but as a question regarding the challenges of religion.
 
There is no denying that religion offers purpose, meaning, comfort and hope to humankind’s existence in this life. However, it also offers things which may be a little less pleasant since they are more rigorous and difficult to practice, such as a sense of shared moral responsibility within a framework of social justice, the self-discipline imposed by rules and regulations, and the notions of sin and punishment when these rules and regulations are not followed. Why would humans take on these aspects of religion, which, in a sense, make their earthly life so much more difficult, without even the assurance of an eternal reward in some cases? This is not offered as a proof of G-d but as a question regarding the challenges of religion.
This gets us into what I referred to in an earlier post as religion’s evolutionary advantages. From an evolutionary standpoint the larger the group that one can cohesively maintain, the greater it’s chances of survival against an outside enemy. If my group is larger than your group, then I’m more likely to prevail in a confrontation. Thus there was probably an evolution in the size of human groups, starting with simple family groups, followed perhaps by tribal groups, and ethnic groups, and cultural groups. Each larger than the previous type, and each having some aspects of commonality within them. As a general rule though, the larger the number that the group can call upon when threatened by an enemy, or in times of adversity, the greater it’s chances of survival.

But in each case there needs to be some system of authority. Some means of settling disputes and setting standards of behavior, or the group tends to fracture. To be maintained, all groups need a source of authority, a means of enforcing that authority, and a code of conduct. In the simplest case this may have been simply communal or patriarchal in nature. But as groups get larger, maintaining authority and stability becomes ever more difficult. Also as the group grows its authority must be able to be projected across larger and larger diversities of subgroups and geographical areas. This tends to limit the size to which groups can efficiently grow. Groups tend to fracture. The trick is to maintain some vestige of unity and authority, in spite of these fractures.

To this end religion holds some unique advantages over all previous types of groups. It can be effective across family, ethnic, cultural, and even national boundaries. It also sets for itself the ultimate source of authority and conduct. One above which no other authority can be invoked, i.e God and His divine revelations. Religious groups may have divisions within their own structure, but when threatened by an outside enemy they tend to rally in defense of the group as a whole. If you hear of Christian churches being attacked in Sudan, your reaction is to want to come to their defense. You don’t question what their denomination is. Thus religion maintains an overarching unity in spite of internal divisions. The Judaic religions specifically, each have their own source for a code of conduct, the Torah, the Bible, and the Quran. And each carries with it the threat of eternal damnation, and ostracization for those who do not adhere to the code. Of course these groups aren’t perfect. They still need a means of projecting the divine authority down here on earth, and they still tend to fracture, but when threatened, they will rally to the defense of the group.

This is the type of thing that I was talking about when I said that religions have evolutionary advantages. This is more than I tend to try to explain on such subjects, but if it makes any sense then I’ve done better than I usually do, and I will welcome any feedback.
 
Any system, be it religion or government is susceptible to eventual rejection. Monarchy, Church-State combinations and a wide range of religious beliefs have come and gone.

Common interest is the most reliable I have seen for unifying people. That is pretty much what brought the US together from such a diverse pool. Hopefully it will continue, but nobody know with any certainty.
 
What they invest in is hope, and purpose, and meaning. Religion “works”, it persists, because it gives men a rationalization for the injustice and cruelty of life. There is spirituality and religion because there is self-awareness, and with it comes a need for meaning and purpose within the futility of our own existence. Men create God, because without Him, life is too painful. Religion persists because it offers comfort and hope.
Those all sound like compelling reasons to be religious, to me.

A freely admit that there is no certainty. But if religious beliefs give life a little meaning, makes the pain of living bearable, what better reason could then be then for adopting them.

In the absence of certainty, choose which ever is the most tolerable option. Either life is a pointless episode of random suffering, or there is a God who will answer everything in the fullness of time…

I hope it’s the second.
 
So, now we are proving god by the fact that people worship one? Which God? Whose interpretation? Sounds like a wonderful free-for-all to me.
 
Either life is a pointless episode of random suffering, or there is a God who will answer everything in the fullness of time…

I hope it’s the second.
If those were the only choices, I’d hope it was the second as well.
 
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