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NotWorthy
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But James does.Don’t leave out the testimony of Ss. Barnabas and Paul. Acts doesn’t.
But James does.Don’t leave out the testimony of Ss. Barnabas and Paul. Acts doesn’t.
So then, what’s your point?As a term? Late second century. He predated that.
Pope as term? Third century. But the patriarchates of Alexandria and Rome predate that.
Supreme Head of the Church? No such predating of the term, and it doesn’t date to the first century.
Peter ate with gentiles [something a jew would not do] until the jewish christians [judiazers] came to town … then Peter stopped table fellowship … Peter did not teach that one should not eat at table with the gentile christians … he just personally stopped out of fear or an unwillingness to create the controversy … a personal “sin” … he was acting the role of a hypocrite but he forced no person to act similarly … Bad yes …Sooo you’re saying St. Peter didn’t get the message of the council, and Paul had to rebuke him then?
I have NEVER heard this spin on these events.Peter ate with gentiles [something a jew would not do] until the jewish christians [judiazers] came to town … then Peter stopped table fellowship … Peter did not teach that one should not eat at table with the gentile christians … he just personally stopped out of fear or an unwillingness to create the controversy … a personal “sin” … he was acting the role of a hypocrite but he forced no person to act similarly … Bad yes …
Paul makes much of this event … mostly to boost his own credibility and I could make some judgements on Paul’s behavior but I won’t … leave it to say that Paul felt he needed the boost to his “self” … after all he was the Apostle born out of time, a former persecuter of the christians [with blood on his hands], was accused of theft [taking the money donated to support those christians being persecuted in Jerusalem] …
Now Paul forced Timothy to be circumcised t placate the the judaizers … too bad Peter did not write about how he ‘corrected’ [rebuked] Paul “to his face” …
But if Peter did not “get it” … Paul really failed to understand because he did not just personnally act in an improper manner but brought Timothy into the impropiety as well …
Truly, though I believe they both understood the Truth … lliving that Truth was hard and thy both were human, with human fears and failings …both of them rising to the occassion and failing to rise at times …
But in the contest of this hypocracy in dealing with the Judaizers, Paul would win out …
THANKSI have NEVER heard this spin on these events.. In our defense of Peter, Catholics tend to put him on a pedestal, and Lord knows that many Protestants feel that Paul is literally the 2nd coming of Christ (not really, but his role is greatly enhanced).
I’m not sure, though, if Paul should be called a hypocrite. Like Peter, he was just trying to placate the Jews, maybe out of necessity. He did pay for the costs of the consecration of the 4 Nazarites in Jerusalem to placate the Jews, so it’s not out of the question. I would wonder if Paul would have been so anxious to have this circumcision if he had been the one to be snipped, though!![]()
by Jesus] V Paul [the greatest thing since Christ Himself] thing …To be honest with you, I think Peter was only made “Proto Apostle” due to the Dilbert Principle - Because he was tall and had good hair! You certainly can’t say it was for his thoughtfulness and level-headedness after reading the four Gospels!THANKS
Well, I tend to think globally about the scriptures and avoid the proof texting …and I just don’t like it when someone takes one example [Paul’s rebuke and discussion of the event with Peter] but fail to see where Paul did the same thing he rebuked Peter for and where he took those similar stances so much farther…
Te entire vision of Peter [bad, not bright, fallable - called *satan
You may be onto something. I always thought Peter was the pick because after making such a jerk of himself so many times in the Gospels, he would be protected from the sin of pride. We all know that humility is to know the truth and to love it for Jesus’ sake. The “servant of the servants” needs to be humble and needs to know the truth when he sees it. With Peter’s record before the Ascension, nobody could argue that HE was the “obvious” choice. Me? I’d have picked Matthew.To be honest with you, I think Peter was only made “Proto Apostle” due to the Dilbert Principle - Because he was tall and had good hair! You certainly can’t say it was for his thoughtfulness and level-headedness after reading the four Gospels!![]()
And why do you say that? John would have been my choice.With Peter’s record before the Ascension, nobody could argue that HE was the “obvious” choice. Me? I’d have picked Matthew.
At risk of going off topic, I would pick Matthew because, as a tax collector, he was good at keeping records! He was organized – had to be. John? Hmm. Preacher to the papal household?And why do you say that? John would have been my choice.
The Apostles were lss interested in one upping each other than Christians are today …15 And consider the patience of our Lord as salvation, as our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, also wrote to you, 16 speaking of these things as he does in all his letters. In them there are some things hard to understand that the ignorant and unstable distort to their own destruction, just as they do the other scriptures. 17 Therefore, beloved, since you are forewarned, be on your guard not to be led into the error of the unprincipled and to fall from your own stability.
1 So I exhort the presbyters among you, as a fellow presbyter and witness to the sufferings of Christ and one who has a share in the glory to be revealed. 2 Tend the flock of God in your midst, (overseeing) not by constraint but willingly, as God would have it, not for shameful profit but eagerly. 3 Do not lord it over those assigned to you, but be examples to the flock.
4 And when the chief Shepherd is revealed, you will receive the unfading crown of glory.5 Likewise, you younger members, be subject to the presbyters. And all of you, clothe yourselves with humility in your dealings with one another, for: “God opposes the proud but bestows favor on the humble.” 6 So humble yourselves under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time.
Maybe there are two identical sets of keys. The pope holds the duplicate set, Christ holds the other original set. Since the pope doesn't make decisions w/o consultation with the King .... all still rests in hands of the King.It’s easy to identify with him.You may be onto something. I always thought Peter was the pick because after making such a jerk of himself so many times in the Gospels, he would be protected from the sin of pride. We all know that humility is to know the truth and to love it for Jesus’ sake. The “servant of the servants” needs to be humble and needs to know the truth when he sees it. With Peter’s record before the Ascension, nobody could argue that HE was the “obvious” choice. Me? I’d have picked Matthew.
Being the first Pope doesn’t make one perfect. Popes always consult with experts within/without the Church.Peter had an argument with Paul, and Paul won’t listen to Peter. If Peter had the last say, why would there be need to consult James? Paul could have listen to Peter and that’s it.
In Galatians, Paul said Peter is to be blamed. Huh?
No, I’m asking if they are so obvious why no one saw them until after the Reformation? By that time it is almost a thousand years that the pope of Rome had been trying to prove his supremacy. I would think someone would have noticeed what is now touted as a slame dunk proof text before modern times. To be honest, as far as I know, this use of the text doesn’t predate Scott Hahn.
Not so. I don’t have the reference here, but I have encountered it in the Fathers. By the time I get back to my library, I will have forgotten this, but I HAVE seen it. And it cannot be a “discovery” of Scott Hahn because it is noted in the footnote of the NAB at Mt. 16:18, and the NAB was published before Hahn came up with it. Moreover, in the new Mass Lectionary, I recall Isaiah 22 and Mt 16 appearing as readings in the same Mass, and the Lectionary has been around since Hahn was in high school.
References to Isaiah 22? I’d like to see your reference if you have it, Mercygate.I would go through every Church Father’s notes on Isaiah 22 and Matthew 16 to see… No. that’s all right.
But let’s be honest - do you see the echoes of Isaiah 22 in Matthew 16 or not? The Church for the longest time dropped the Typology of the OT from it’s Scriptural Studies. That is a shame. It doesn’t mean that Isaiah is not a pre-figurement of Matthew.
I warned you that I would forget to go dig up the reference from the Fathers connecting Is 22:22 with Mt. 16:18 (which I think might be in Jurgens). I will not have access to it until next week because I am attending a Scripture conference over the weekend.References to Isaiah 22? I’d like to see your reference if you have it, Mercygate.
This is from Mark Bonocore:
St. John Cassian (c. 362-435), who writes:
“O Peter, Prince of Apostles, it is just that you should teach us, since you were yourself taught by the Lord; and also that you should open to us the gate of which you have received the Key (singular). Keep out all those who are undermining the heavenly House; turn away those who are trying to enter through false caverns and unlawful gates since it is certain that no one can enter in at the gate of the Kingdom except the one unto whom the Key (singular), placed by you in the churches, shall open it.” (John Cassian, Book III, Chap 12, Against the Nestorians on the Incarnation)
Compare this to Isaiah 22, which reads:
“On that day I shall summon my servant Eliakim, son of Hilkiah. …I will place the Key of the House of David on his shoulder; when he opens, no one shall shut, and when he shuts, no one shall open.”
Cassian is clearly drawing from Isaiah 22, and applying it to Matt 16.
I believe the reason we don’t see Isaiah 22 used more extensively is that it’s rooted in a sense of Jewish national identity. And, since most of the fathers were Gentiles, it’s not surprising that they see the Keys of Matt 16 referring to authority in a more generic sense (which is equally valid). However, we do see the Kingly, Davidic aspect of the Keys alluded to more often in the Semetic-speaking branches of the Church. For example, Aphraates the Sage (c. 330 A.D.), one of the oldest fathers of the Syrian Church, says:
“David handed over the Kingdom to Solomon and was gathered to his people; and Jesus handed over the Keys to Simon and ascended and returned to Him Who sent Him.” (Aphraates, xxi, 13).
Also, St. Ephraem the Syrian (c. 350) writes:
“Then Peter deservedly received the Vicariate of Christ over His people.” (Ephraem, Sermon de Martyrio. SS. App. Petri et Pauli).
From Answer to James White on the Early Papacy
Where does it say that Peter had an argument with Paul? I’m unfamiliar with this incident.Peter had an argument with Paul, and Paul won’t listen to Peter. If Peter had the last say, why would there be need to consult James? Paul could have listen to Peter and that’s it.
And Paul is right. Peter was acting out of step with what he was preaching.In Galatians, Paul said Peter is to be blamed. Huh?
Another person who does NOT consider Paul an apostle.Scriptural evidence in addition to Matthew 16:18 for Peter’s leadership over the apostles and Church:
Peter is mentioned 195 times in the NT. The next closest is John, "the beloved disciple,” who is mentioned 29 times…