Proof that Christ's Church was not Sola Scriptura

[Duane1966]

Do Catholics agree or disagree that writings breathed out by God have the same authority as God speaking from his throne?

Agreed. But it is clearly not the only Divine Authority. Before one word of the New Testament was written, Jesus had given Divine Authority to the Apostles to preach, teach, interpret, and bind, and determine what is and isn’t Scripture in His name. And they handed that same Divine Authority on. So we know that Scripture is not the only Divine Authority. In fact Scripture, if it has been interpreted by those without said authority, has led to sad division. Of this there can be no doubt.

Without this Divine Authority to interpret it correctly, you get this, from St. Peter:

In them there are some things hard to understand that the ignorant and unstable distort to their own destruction, just as they do the other scriptures.

Now Jesus, nor those whom He handed on Divine Authority to, ever taught sola scriptura. And looking at the Reformation, it is easy to see why.

 

[PRmerger]

I have never said Scripture is the only authority:

I have said Scripture is at the same level of authority as God speaking from His throne:
and it is impossible for any authority to be higher than that.

Then you are very Catholic when you say this!

 

[PRmerger]

In general : we would not encouraged those who think we are contradicting or violating Scripture to remain.
If someone thinks our Church is in serious error: and after attempting to correct us; was unable make a change: why would they want to stay?

Ok.

After a decade of being in leadership, and being a lay speaker/preacher, I left a liberal Methodist Church for that very reason… i tried for years to reason through Scripture: I was unable to initiate a change: so I left

So you left and found a church that conformed more to your interpretation of Scripture?

 

[Duane1966]

Ok.

So you left and found a church that conformed more to your interpretation of Scripture?

Correct. He practiced solo scriptura. In principle, there is no difference between *solo *and sola scriptura.

 

[alwayswill]

Agreed. But it is clearly not the only Divine Authority. Before one word of the New Testament was written, Jesus had given Divine Authority to the Apostles to preach, teach, interpret, and bind, and determine what is and isn’t Scripture in His name. And they handed that same Divine Authority on. So we know that Scripture is not the only Divine Authority. In fact Scripture, if it has been interpreted by those without said authority, has led to sad division. Of this there can be no doubt. And it is predicted in Scripture by St. Peter:

Now Jesus, nor those whom He handed on Divine Authority to, ever taught sola scriptura. And looking at the Reformation, it is easy to see why.

Thank you again!!
so we now have worked up to
Scripture is at the same level of authority as God speaking from His throne:
( by definition there can be no authority higher than that)

We have agreed that nothing can diminish God’s authority…

so now the final part
does the Catholic Church have the same level of authority or less authority than God speaking from His Throne ?

now before you answer consider this:

does the Granter of authority have more authority or the same authority as the Receiver of authority?

 

[alwayswill]

Ok.

So you left and found a church that conformed more to your interpretation of Scripture?

yep: and I may have been wrong

 

[PRmerger]

Until the Bible can literally speak to you when you open it, and tell you what passages mean, your interpretation is the ultimate authority.

Yep. Egg-zactly.

 

[PRmerger]

yep: and I may have been wrong

Eek!

 

[PRmerger]

Scriptures are the highest authority BECAUSE of what Scripture are.
Writings breathed out by God

Sure.

But then we have to rely on our interpretation of what that Scripture is saying.

And when we don’t submit to the authority of the Church, we end up with the obscenity of tens of thousands of different denominations, each claiming their own interpretation of Scripture is the correct one.

 

[PRmerger]

nope: I know I could be completely wrong:

This is another nonsequitur.

It doesn’t refute the fact that you were, in fact, practicing solo scriptura.

 

[PRmerger]

ok: got it…sinners disagree on the meanings of God’s words.
No denial here

for ex:
I could have been sitting in front of Jesus at His Sermon on the Mount:

the next day, while speaking to my friend ( who was also there): I find that we disagree with the meaning of what He said.

Is the authority of Jesus diminished because sinners don’t agree on the meaning of His words?

THAT’s the best apologia I’ve seen today for why we need an authoritative interpreter of the Word of God.

 

[Duane1966]

Thank you again!!
so we now have worked up to
Scripture is at the same level of authority as God speaking from His throne:
( by definition there can be no authority higher than that)

We have agreed that nothing can diminish God’s authority…

so now the final part
does the Catholic Church have the same level of authority or less authority than God speaking from His Throne ?

now before you answer consider this:

does the Granter of authority have more authority or less authority than the Receiver of authority?

Depends on how much authority the Granter decided to Give. In this case, the same. Just as all power was given to Jesus, He gave all power to His Church. Whatever She bounds on Earth, shall be bound in Heaven.

 

[PRmerger]

So you left and found a church that conformed more to your interpretation of Scripture?

yep: and I may have been wrong

You do realize, alwayswill, that you will always be wondering, with each church that you join, given the fact that you understand you are fallible, and that the pastor(s) (old and new) are fallible…whether what you’re receiving from the pulpit is correct doctrine.

That’s a really scary position for you to be in, don’t you think?

Every word that comes from the mouth of the preacher has to be filtered through your fallible interpretation of Scripture. Your preacher says, “Baptism does A, B and C!” and you have to pause and think, “What does the Bible say about this? I thought it said not A, yes B and doesn’t mention C!”

This, too, is just what the devil wants–insecurity, doubt and uncertainty.

 

[Duane1966]

Depends on how much authority the Granter decided to Give. In this case, the same. Just as all power was given to Jesus, He gave all power to His Church. Whatever She bounds on Earth, shall be bound in Heaven. From calledtocommunion.com:

.It is important to note that Christ never mentions the writings of the apostles. He gave them no command to write, and never restricted their authority to the written word. His authority attached to their persons and their teaching…**The Protestant position infers canonical authority from inspiration. But this is not a valid inference. God can inspire a text without intending that text to serve as a final authority for all matters doctrinal.
**

 

[JimmyDFG]

Sola Scriptura has proven how dangerous it can be with The Church of God with Signs Following and The Church of Lord Jesus with Signs Following are the name applied to Pentecostal churches that practice snake handling an based on an interpretation of the following biblical passage:
Mark 16:18 “They will pick up serpents [with their hands], and if they drink any deadly thing, it will not harm them. They will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover”

Jamie Coots was a Pentecostal pastor in Kentucky. On Coots died Feb. 15, 2014 from a rattlesnake bite during a service

 

[PRmerger]

Sola Scriptura has proven how dangerous it can be with The Church of God with Signs Following and The Church of Lord Jesus with Signs Following are the name applied to Pentecostal Holiness churches that practice snake handling an based on an interpretation of the following biblical passage:
Mark 16:18 “They will pick up serpents [with their hands], and if they drink any deadly thing, it will not harm them. They will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover”

Jamie Coots was a Pentecostal pastor in Kentucky who was featured in the National Geographic Channel reality television show Snake Salvation, which documented the lives of people who practice snake handling. Coots died Feb. 15, 2014 from a rattlesnake bite during a service

Indeed.

And then there’s the Jehovah’s Witnesses who refuse blood transfusions based on their interpretation of Scripture.

telegraph.co.uk/news/health/news/7734480/Teenage-Jehovahs-Witness-refuses-blood-transfusion-and-dies.html

Or these guys who eat grass because of their pastor’s interpretation of Scripture.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-...p3slwGKDYzBhBlRVdOfUREI1gCJoC/w800-h800/4.jpg

All because they are practicing the fruit of Sola Scriptura–read the Bible and determine for myself what it means.

 

[Darryl_B]

Sola Scriptura has proven how dangerous it can be with The Church of God with Signs Following and The Church of Lord Jesus with Signs Following are the name applied to Pentecostal churches that practice snake handling an based on an interpretation of the following biblical passage:
Mark 16:18 “They will pick up serpents [with their hands], and if they drink any deadly thing, it will not harm them. They will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover”

Jamie Coots was a Pentecostal pastor in Kentucky. On Coots died Feb. 15, 2014 from a rattlesnake bite during a service

Have you seen some of the strange things going on in Africa among the “pentecostal”? There is some weird stuff but really when it comes down to it they have just learnt from the western evangelists.

 

[Darryl_B]

Indeed.

And then there’s the Jehovah’s Witnesses who refuse blood transfusions based on their interpretation of Scripture.

telegraph.co.uk/news/health/news/7734480/Teenage-Jehovahs-Witness-refuses-blood-transfusion-and-dies.html

Or these guys who eat grass because of their pastor’s interpretation of Scripture.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-...p3slwGKDYzBhBlRVdOfUREI1gCJoC/w800-h800/4.jpg

All because they are practicing the fruit of Sola Scriptura–read the Bible and determine for myself what it means.

Judging by the photo you posted, you might have beat me to it. However I have never seen this photo nor its context, I have other interesting though just as perplexing situations in mind.

When it comes to Sola Scriptura, the fact that it does not actually really mean Sola Scriptura any more but an incorporated tradition, a different tradition, but a tradition none the less, a tradition spanning for some 100 years, for some 200 years, for some 400 years, for others 500 years. Really when I hear that definition of Sola Scriptura, it is not really Sola Scriptura at all any more. The definition has changed over the course of the centuries and therefore has no right to boast the term Sola Scriptura. The non-history, suddenly developed a history, their own history their own tradition.

What changed to the original intent of that phrase? And why see the need to change the definition to anchor to the past?

How do we use Scripture to evaluate the concepts of contraception, of euthanasia, of valid action in war time, the answer is through the living Church that Christ founded.

 

[alwayswill]

Depends on how much authority the Granter decided to Give. In this case, the same. Just as all power was given to Jesus, He gave all power to His Church. Whatever She bounds on Earth, shall be bound in Heaven.

ok: so Jesus and the Father have the same authority.
We have aldeady agreed that writings breathed out by God have the same authority as God speaking from His throne…

is it your view that the Catholic Church has the same authority as God?

 

[alwayswill]

Sola Scriptura has proven how dangerous it can be with The Church of God with Signs Following and The Church of Lord Jesus with Signs Following are the name applied to Pentecostal churches that practice snake handling an based on an interpretation of the following biblical passage:
Mark 16:18 “They will pick up serpents [with their hands], and if they drink any deadly thing, it will not harm them. They will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover”

Jamie Coots was a Pentecostal pastor in Kentucky. On Coots died Feb. 15, 2014 from a rattlesnake bite during a service

we have already agreed (post 134) that differing interpretations of the words of God, Scripture, or the Church does NOT diminish their authority.