Proof that Christ's Church was not Sola Scriptura

[alwayswill]

THAT’s the best apologia I’ve seen today for why we need an authoritative interpreter of the Word of God.

during the Sermon on the Mount Jesus says

On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

Years later : Matthew writes

On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

on judgment day Jesus will say:
‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

will anyone be provide with an authoritative interpreter?

 

[alwayswill]

Indeed.

And then there’s the Jehovah’s Witnesses who refuse blood transfusions based on their interpretation of Scripture.

telegraph.co.uk/news/health/news/7734480/Teenage-Jehovahs-Witness-refuses-blood-transfusion-and-dies.html

Or these guys who eat grass because of their pastor’s interpretation of Scripture.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-...p3slwGKDYzBhBlRVdOfUREI1gCJoC/w800-h800/4.jpg

All because they are practicing the fruit of Sola Scriptura–read the Bible and determine for myself what it means.

so far I have not offered examples of Catholics misunderstanding (not rejecting) the authoritative teachings from the Catholic Church.

I can. and as you know their are some extreme examples of Catholics misunderstanding their authority’s teachings

But that is irrelevant: my point stands.

“differing interpretations of the words of God, Scripture, or the Church does NOT diminish their authority.”

 

[Duane1966]

ok: so Jesus and the Father have the same authority.
We have aldeady agreed that writings breathed out by God have the same authority as God speaking from His throne…

is it your view that the Catholic Church has the same authority as God?

I already said yes, He has given her the authority to speak, teach, interpret, bind, and…in His name, until He comes again. He has granted her full authority. When there is a problem take it to the Church, for she is the pillar and ground of truth. When she speaks, I know I hear Jesus, for He has invested her with full authority.

Until you realize that, it is you that ultimately tries to bind and loose yourself. But Jesus did not give you that authority.

Tell me, after the council of Jerusalem in Acts, would it have been okay for the Judaizers to ignore the judgement of the council, and still demand circumcision of the Gentiles? It wasn’t written down as Scripture yet. Or did the council carry just as much authority as if Jesus had issued the proclamation?

 

[alwayswill]

I already said yes, He has given her the authority to speak, teach, interpret, bind, and…in His name, until He comes again. He has granted her full authority. When there is a problem take it to the Church, for she is the pillar and ground of truth. When she speaks, I know I hear Jesus, for He has invested her with full authority.

Until you realize that, it is you that ultimately tries to bind and loose yourself. But Jesus did not give you that authority.
…

Finally we are now at the root of the issue:

We agree that writings breathed out by God have the same authority as God speaking from the throne.

We disagree that the Catholic Church has the same authority as God…
You say yes: I say that God is the greater authority.

At the heart of the matter: Sola Scriptura is not about Scripture; but whether not the Catholic Church is the authoritative equivalent of God (as Scripture is).

Unless you can convince me that the Catholic Church is at the same authoritative level as God: I will hold that writings breathed out by God are more authoritative than the Catholic Church.

until then:
I proclaim at the top of my lungs
God is greater than the Catholic Church

Can you say that?

 

[Duane1966]

Finally we are now at the root of the issue:

We agree that writings breathed out by God have the same authority as God speaking from the throne.

We disagree that the Catholic Church has the same authority as God…
You say yes: I say that God is the greater authority.

At the heart of the matter: Sola Scriptura is not about Scripture; but whether not the Catholic Church is the authoritative equivalent of God (as Scripture is).

Unless you can convince me that the Catholic Church is at the same authoritative level as God: I will hold that writings breathed out by God are more authoritative than the Catholic Church.

until then:
I proclaim at the top of my lungs
God is greater than the Catholic Church

Can you say that?

He is greater. That does not mean He did not give her the same authority that He wields.

I notice you did not answer these questions:

Tell me, after the council of Jerusalem in Acts, would it have been okay for the Judaizers to ignore the judgement of the council, and still demand circumcision of the Gentiles? It wasn’t written down as Scripture yet. Or did the council carry just as much authority as if Jesus had issued the proclamation?

 

[PRmerger]

Really when I hear that definition of Sola Scriptura, it is not really Sola Scriptura at all any more. The definition has changed over the course of the centuries and therefore has no right to boast the term Sola Scriptura.

Yep.

It’s changed because

1. Sola Scriptura isn’t in the Bible
2. Since Protestantism has no central authority to speak for it, no one has the authority to define SS.

I’ve heard some Lutherans here say that their (Luther’s) definition of SS is the correct one, since he was the one that started this entire thing…but when they oppose others starting their own definition, aren’t they opposing what they did to the CC?

That is, aren’t they reserving for themselves (“We (Lutherans) get to reform/protest the original (Catholic Church), since it’s erroneous!”) while objecting to others doing the same thing: “(You Methodists can’t reform/protest our original definition of SS, even if you believe it to be erroneous!”)

 

[PRmerger]

Finally we are now at the root of the issue:

We agree that writings breathed out by God have the same authority as God speaking from the throne.

We disagree that the Catholic Church has the same authority as God…
You say yes: I say that God is the greater authority.

Ah, but without His Body, the Catholic Church, you cannot know a single thing about what God revealed.

You would be worshipping a disembodied Head.
With no way, (except, maybe through beautiful mountains and oceans and stuff like that), to speak to you.

 

[alwayswill]

He is greater. That does not mean He did not give her the same authority that He wields.

I notice you did not answer these questions:

Tell me, after the council of Jerusalem in Acts, would it have been okay for the Judaizers to ignore the judgement of the council, and still demand circumcision of the Gentiles? It wasn’t written down as Scripture yet. Or did the council carry just as much authority as if Jesus had issued the proclamation?

.Did you see they discussed the issue with Peter , Paul and Barnabas who gave their observations
They conclude that their statements agreed with the prophets (plural) about God’s plan for the Gentiles

“And with this the words of the prophets agree,”

They tested the observations of Peter , Paul and Barnabas against the truth of Scriptures

If what Peter , Paul and Barnabas did not agree with Scripture: do you think the result would have been the same?

then they quoted Scripture; Amos 9

then said “therefore” and gave their judgment based on the Scripture that was just referenced…

They agree not to put any burdens on the Gentiles based on God’s plan for the Gentiles that was just referenced in the Scripture…
Scriptures revealed God’s plan; they acted accordingly as not to hinder God’s plan in Scripture.

 

[Duane1966]

.Did you see they discussed the issue with Peter , Paul and Barnabas who gave their observations
They conclude that their statements agreed with the prophets (plural) about God’s plan for the Gentiles

“And with this the words of the prophets agree,”

They tested the observations of Peter , Paul and Barnabas against the truth of Scriptures

If what Peter , Paul and Barnabas did not agree with Scripture: do you think the result would have been the same?

then they quoted Scripture; Amos 9

then said “therefore” and gave their judgment based on the Scripture that was just referenced…

They agree not to put any burdens on the Gentiles based on God’s plan for the Gentiles that was just referenced in the Scripture…
Scriptures revealed God’s plan; they acted accordingly as not to hinder God’s plan in Scripture.

You have a habit of not answering questions. Would it have been okay for the Judaizers, if when searching the Scriptures, and believing the Scriptures were not interpreted correctly by the council, to ignore the council? Or did the council have authority given to it by Christ, to bind and loose, that was not part of Scripture yet?

Before any of the New Testament was ever written, did the Church have the authority to declare Sunday as the day of worship for Christians, and later determine which writings were, and which writings were not God inspired?

If not a letter of the New Testament had ever been written, would the Church’s Divinely given Authority be diminished?

If the New Testament had never been written, would Christ’s Church still be here, still doing what He commanded her to do?

Is not Scripture, in reality, God speaking to His Church, through His Church?

 

[AmbroseSJ]

.Did you see they discussed the issue with Peter , Paul and Barnabas who gave their observations
They conclude that their statements agreed with the prophets (plural) about God’s plan for the Gentiles

“And with this the words of the prophets agree,”

They tested the observations of Peter , Paul and Barnabas against the truth of Scriptures

If what Peter , Paul and Barnabas did not agree with Scripture: do you think the result would have been the same?

then they quoted Scripture; Amos 9

then said “therefore” and gave their judgment based on the Scripture that was just referenced…

They agree not to put any burdens on the Gentiles based on God’s plan for the Gentiles that was just referenced in the Scripture…
Scriptures revealed God’s plan; they acted accordingly as not to hinder God’s plan in Scripture.

Very good point!

However, you must bear in mind that “they” who concluded with the citation from Amos was only James the Apostle, the first Bishop of Jerusalem, who was inspired by the Holy Spirit at Pentecost. Also this showed the “mechanics” of the first council of Jerusalem whereby James sided with Peter, Paul and Barnabas. IOW, Scripture and the Church will ALWAYS be ONE. The Church NEVER said or does say that it can do anything contrary to Sacred Scripture.

Therefore rather than confirm Sola Scriptura, it confirms the Church acting in council. If it confirmed Sola Scriptura, there would have been NO council. The Debate that you read about in ACTS would have ended up just like the Protestant Reformation. There would have been thousands of various sects all reading what THEY thought Scripture meant. In that case, the Church would have simply dissolved into chaos and contradiction, just like happened in the Protestant Reformation.

 

[alwayswill]

Ah, but without His Body, the Catholic Church, you cannot know a single thing about what God revealed.

You would be worshipping a disembodied Head.
With no way, (except, maybe through beautiful mountains and oceans and stuff like that), to speak to you.

is the Body of Christ ALL believers or ONLY the Catholic Church?

From the CCC
790 Believers who respond to God’s word and become members of Christ’s Body,
805 The Church is the Body of Christ. Through the Spirit and his action in the sacraments, above all the Eucharist, Christ, who once was dead and is now risen, establishes the community of believers as his own Body

from newadvent.org/cathen/03744a.htm
ecclesia is never used by the Apostles to denote the Jewish Church. The word as a technical expression had been transferred to the community of Christian believers
As signifying the Church, the word Ecclesia is used by Christian writers, sometimes in a wider, sometimes in a more restricted sense.
•It is employed to denote all who, from the beginning of the world, have believed in the one true God, and have been made His children by grace
•It may signify the whole body of the faithful, including not merely the members of the Church who are alive on earth but those, too, whether in heaven or in purgatory

from newadvent.org/cathen/10663a.htm
This truth, that the Church is the mystical body of Christ, all its members being guided and directed by Christ the head,

 

[alwayswill]

You have a habit of not answering questions. Would it have been okay for the Judaizers, if when searching the Scriptures, and believing the Scriptures were not interpreted correctly by the council, to ignore the council? Or did the council have authority given to it by Christ, to bind and loose, that was not part of Scripture yet?

Before any of the New Testament was ever written, did the Church have the authority to declare Sunday as the day of worship for Christians, and later determine which writings were, and which writings were not God inspired?

If not a letter of the New Testament had ever been written, would the Church’s Divinely given Authority be diminished?

If the New Testament had never been written, would Christ’s Church still be here, still doing what He commanded her to do?

Is not Scripture, in reality, God speaking to His Church, through His Church?

I did answer:

The Judaizers, had no Scriptural case for their position:
The council appealed to Scripture:

…Found that the observations of Peter , Paul and Barnabas AGREED with the prophets (as found in Scripture)
…quoted Scripture
…said therefore…
…then decided not do hinder God’s plan for the Gentiles as revealed in Scripture.

 

[PRmerger]

is the Body of Christ ALL believers or ONLY the Catholic Church?

The Body of Christ is the Catholic Church.

To the degree that you have conformed your beliefs to Christ, and His Body, is the degree to which you are united with Him.

Now, when you* shop for a church that conforms to your own views, that’s when you have created a religion in your own image.

So, instead of joining a church that you think sounds like a good match for your beliefs…and then leaving when that pastor says something you don’t agree with…

you should find the Church that Christ established, and then conform your views to Christ’s.

And, if you can’t say that the church to which you belong has made you conform your views, amend your views…then I daresay that you have created a religion of the Almighty Self rather than the Almighty

---

*“You” here is a generic “you”, not a personal “you”.

 

[alwayswill]

The Body of Christ is the Catholic Church.

To the degree that you have conformed your beliefs to Christ, and His Body, is the degree to which you are united with Him.

Now, when you* shop for a church that conforms to your own views, that’s when you have created a religion in your own image.

So, instead of joining a church that you think sounds like a good match for your beliefs…and then leaving when that pastor says something you don’t agree with…

you should find the Church that Christ established, and then conform your views to Christ’s.

And, if you can’t say that the church to which you belong has made you conform your views, amend your views…then I daresay that you have created a religion of the Almighty Self rather than the Almighty

---

*“You” here is a generic “you”, not a personal “you”.

I just presented to you three Catholic sources that said the Body of Christ consists of ALL believers

 

[alwayswill]

The Body of Christ is the Catholic Church.

To the degree that you have conformed your beliefs to Christ, and His Body, is the degree to which you are united with Him.

Now, when you* shop for a church that conforms to your own views, that’s when you have created a religion in your own image.

So, instead of joining a church that you think sounds like a good match for your beliefs…and then leaving when that pastor says something you don’t agree with…

you should find the Church that Christ established, and then conform your views to Christ’s.

And, if you can’t say that the church to which you belong has made you conform your views, amend your views…then I daresay that you have created a religion of the Almighty Self rather than the Almighty

---

*“You” here is a generic “you”, not a personal “you”.

would you stay at these churches?

(1) Ephesus (Revelation 2:1-7) - the church that had forsaken its first love (2:4).
(3) Pergamum (Revelation 2:12-17) - the church that needed to repent (2:16).
(4) Thyatira (Revelation 2:18-29) - the church that had a false prophetess (2:20).
(5) Sardis (Revelation 3:1-6) - the church that had fallen asleep (3:2).
(7) Laodicea (Revelation 3:14-22) - the church with the lukewarm faith (3:16).

I wouldn’t

 

[PRmerger]

I just presented to you three Catholic sources that said the Body of Christ consists of ALL believers

Sure.

As I said, to the degree that you believe what the CC believes is the degree to which you are joined to Christ’s Body.

 

[PRmerger]

Whatever She bounds on Earth, shall be bound in Heaven.

Indeed.

I don’t think that any pastor of a church, like this one, could claim that he has the power and authority to bind/loose.

 

[PRmerger]

during the Sermon on the Mount Jesus says

On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

Years later : Matthew writes

On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

on judgment day Jesus will say:
‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

Amen!

will anyone be provide with an authoritative interpreter?

Emmm…yes. Christ took care of his sheep and provided a shepherd.

He didn’t establish a Church and leave it to founder, helplessly, tossed to a fro by every wind of doctrine, so now his sheep don’t know whether:

-baptism is a sacrament or an ordinance
-Saturday is the day of worship or Sunday
-divorce and remarriage is permitted or adultery
-women can be ordained or not

etc etc etc.

Christ did indeed provide an authoritative interpreter, thanks be to God!

 

[alwayswill]

Amen!

Emmm…yes. Christ took care of his sheep and provided a shepherd.

He didn’t establish a Church and leave it to founder, helplessly, tossed to a fro by every wind of doctrine, so now his sheep don’t know whether:

-baptism is a sacrament or an ordinance
-Saturday is the day of worship or Sunday
-divorce and remarriage is permitted or adultery
-women can be ordained or not

etc etc etc.

Christ did indeed provide an authoritative interpreter, thanks be to God!

my question was related to line that preceded it:
**
on judgment day Jesus will say:**
will anyone be provided with an authoritative interpreter?

 

[PRmerger]

so far I have not offered examples of Catholics misunderstanding (not rejecting) the authoritative teachings from the Catholic Church.

That’s fine, because what you would be doing would be offering examples of something NOT endorsed by the CC.

The CC says: this is how Scripture should be interpreted. If you depart from it, you are wrong.

But what I have given are examples of things** totally endorsed by your paradigm**: you, as a Protestant, must tell all of those people (the ones eating grass, the ones refusing blood transfusions): yes, you are right to do what you’ve done, if you feel that my church is wrong in its interpretation of Scripture.

“differing interpretations of the words of God, Scripture, or the Church does NOT diminish their authority.”

Correct.

But differing interpretations of the words of God DO diminish Sola Scriptura.