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PRmerger
Guest
Jesus will say this? Really? How do you know this?
Please cite the Bible verse where you get this from.
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Please cite the Bible verse where you get this from.
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alwayswill
Guest
Matthew 18:18
"Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.
Does the Orthodox Church have the power and authority to bind/loose.?
what of the the other churches founded by Apostles?
Do they have the power and authority to bind/loose.?
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alwayswill
Guest
I’m sorry
I messed up my copy and paste
Matthew 7
"Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly,** ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’**
“On that day”; will an authoritative interpreter be provided?
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Duane1966
Guest
You show how weak your position is, by an answer that does not address what was asked. I’ve gotten used to it with you. Whether the Judaizers had no Scriptural basis for their position is your subjective view, and really doesn’t pertain to the question.
Whether in actuality they had basis or not, is not the question that was asked of you.
The question that was asked is this: If the Judaizers searched the Scriptures, and believed the council got it wrong, would it have been okay to ignore the council?
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PRmerger
Guest
This is, really, the crux of the matter.
Unless a Christian defers to the authority of the Church, he is binding and loosing for himself.
And he has no authority to do so.
And I think the test of this is if the Christian can say, “I believe [A] but the Church teaches **, therefore I conform my views to the Church’s”
What is always the pattern with non-Catholic Christians is: “I believe [A] and will church shop until I find a church that also teaches [A]”.
That’s the epitome of creating a church in one’s own image.
(And in the interest of transparency, I will offer my own example: I believe that divorce and re-marriage should be fine. But the Church teaches that it’s adultery. Therefore, I conform my views to the Church’s.
I don’t leave my Church to find another church that teaches: divorce and re-marriage is perfectly fine…because, if I did do that, I’d be worshipping at the almighty self’s altar, not the altar of the Almighty.)**
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PRmerger
Guest
Yes, they do. They have apostolic succession.
Can you give some examples of what you mean?
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PRmerger
Guest
What Scriptures do you mean….since the NT did not exist at that time.
Do you mean the OT?
If so, you seem to be arguing for Sola Old Testament, yeah?
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Duane1966
Guest
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JimmyDFG
Guest
Wasn’t saying anything about “authority”. I was pointing out the dangerous of ones own interpretation of the Bible. Pentecostals generally adhere to the Bible’s divine inspiration and inerrancy. Saint Peter himself says that the Bible can be hard to understand in 2 Peter 3:16. Because different Christians have different interpretations of the Bible it cannot be self authenticating. Case in point Jamie Coots
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alwayswill
Guest
???
v 15 reads
“And with this the words of the prophets agree,”"
The words of Prophets (plural more than on prophet) are found in the Hebrew Scriptures
v16 they quoted Scripture; Amos 9 referencing God’s plans for the Gentiles
v17 Therefore (referencing what just came before: Scripture) a decision is made not to trouble with any obstacle to God’s revealed plan for the Gentilesas found in Scripture
re: ANY Scripture: OT or NT
I have already been through this:
summarizing previous points:
If the only writing we had from God was the the Ten Commandment; Scripture would still be the highest authority, (that is the description of SS see post 50)
Scripture is the highest authority, (not the only authority : post 50))
BECAUSE of what Scripture is: Scriptures are writings breathed out by God.
They have the same authority as God speaking from His throne
And there can be no authority higher than that…
Now unless the Catholic Church has the same authority as God speaking from His throne; then Scripture is a higher authority than the Catholic Church
“This Mediator, having spoken what He judged sufficient first by the prophets, then by His own lips, and afterwards by the apostles, has besides produced **the Scripture which is called canonical, which has paramount authority, and to which we yield assent in all matters of which we ought not to be ignorant, and yet cannot know of ourselves”
** -St Augustine
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alwayswill
Guest
Got it: sinners misunderstand God:
no denying that.
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spina1953
Guest
In reading a number of posts concerning Scripture being the highest authority while I can readily agree that God’s Word is the highest authority, and Scripture is the inspired Word of God in human form,its seems to me its more about one’s interpretations of what Scripture says and mean. That is to say, what does the individual think it means and says and how one understands it. I think one can agree many can read the same passage of Scripture and come aways with a different means from the others, but then the problem lies in the fact that if each make the claim that they have been guided by the Holy Spirit, how is it then that each can have a different understanding? It seems to me the Holy Spirit can be the author of chaos and misunderstandings. In the OT, there is the passage about an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth but Jesus Jesus said, forgive your neighbor and also to turn the other cheek contrary to what the OT said about it, So which do we believe? What Jesus said by His way of teaching and understanding, or do we decide to pick and say well its God’s Word and He said an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth and say well now Jesus had no right to change the meaning of what Scripture said because its God’s Word so its the highest authority? Jesus taught and passed that teaching to the Apostles who also passed it on to their successors the understandings of what Scripture says and means to give understanding of God’s Word.
While the CC wants everyone to read Scripture, it is however to the CC to say what Scripture says and means since it was Christ Himself who taught the Apostles, who in turn taught and passed on what they were taught to their successors, and it was the CC who decided what Scripture was and what was not which became what we call the Bible a collection of inspired books of Scripture. Christ also gave the Apostles the authority to say what Scripture says and means. Christ did not give that authority to the individual to decide for himself what Scripture says and means thereby causing chaos over the interpretations of God’s Word. Not everything found in Scripture is easy to understand, and the individual is not prepared to understand everything in SCripture which is why it is to the CC to say what SCripture says and means so one has a better understanding of God’s Word.This is why Sola Scriptura did not work during the time of the Apostles nor later and still doesnot work to day. Sola Scriptura was not in the early Church, and where it was found all it did was to cause misunderstandings and teaching contrary to what Christ taught the Apostles and handed down to Christ’s Church; the Catholic Church.
While the CC wants everyone to read Scripture, it is however to the CC to say what Scripture says and means since it was Christ Himself who taught the Apostles, who in turn taught and passed on what they were taught to their successors, and it was the CC who decided what Scripture was and what was not which became what we call the Bible a collection of inspired books of Scripture. Christ also gave the Apostles the authority to say what Scripture says and means. Christ did not give that authority to the individual to decide for himself what Scripture says and means thereby causing chaos over the interpretations of God’s Word. Not everything found in Scripture is easy to understand, and the individual is not prepared to understand everything in SCripture which is why it is to the CC to say what SCripture says and means so one has a better understanding of God’s Word.This is why Sola Scriptura did not work during the time of the Apostles nor later and still doesnot work to day. Sola Scriptura was not in the early Church, and where it was found all it did was to cause misunderstandings and teaching contrary to what Christ taught the Apostles and handed down to Christ’s Church; the Catholic Church.
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AmbroseSJ
Guest
The Catholic Church is headed by the Divine Son of God. He is the King and ruler. HE opens the Scripture to us, in the same way he opened the Scripture to HIS disciples on their way to Emmaus.
Only the Catholic Church is Divine, and ruled over by Jesus Christ.
All Protestant churches (ecclesial communities) are man made entities trapped in error.
Baptized believers (non-Catholics) are somewhat joined to the Catholic Church, but imperfectly and with many gaps and omissions. Sort of like the fenny places in Ezekiel’s vision, where the living waters do not have much effect.
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Duane1966
Guest
Yes, Jesus said the Church has the same authority as He.
Not a hard concept to grasp. It is a hard saying for sola scripturaists.
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alwayswill
Guest
If a writing breathed out by God revealed a statement of fact that had never been declared before: is it possible for God to disagree with that statement?
I say no.
If the Catholic Church revealed a statement of fact that had never been declared before: is it possible for God to disagree with that statement??
What do you say?
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alwayswill
Guest
would you stay at these churches?
(1) Ephesus (Revelation 2:1-7) - the church that had forsaken its first love (2:4).
(3) Pergamum (Revelation 2:12-17) - the church that needed to repent (2:16).
(4) Thyatira (Revelation 2:18-29) - the church that had a false prophetess (2:20).
(5) Sardis (Revelation 3:1-6) - the church that had fallen asleep (3:2).
(7) Laodicea (Revelation 3:14-22) - the church with the lukewarm faith (3:16).
I wouldn’t
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cominghome1966
Guest
That’s a remarkable statement. Christ’s command was for them to repent to save their souls, not to leave to save their souls. And his command to repent wasn’t even directed at all of the members in some cases.
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PRmerger
Guest
Again, always, NONE OF THE ABOVE addresses my point.
Since there was NO NEW TESTAMENT when Peter, Paul and Barnabas “searched the Scriptures”, what you are advocating is SOLA OLD TESTAMENT.
Is that really what you want to prove here?
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PRmerger
Guest
It is the Word of God, yes. But that doesn’t make it the highest authority.
Jesus is the highest authority, and His Word comes to us through 2 channels: the written and the oral.
We cannot deny the oral word of God without necessarily denying the written word of God.
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PRmerger
Guest
And if they use their interpretation of the Scriptures as their final authority, they are leading themselves into error.
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