Proof that Christ's Church was not Sola Scriptura

[alwayswill]

No. Not at all. That’s definitely not one of the teachings of the CC.

would be true to state that authoritative proclamations (that are NOT consider infallible) from the Catholic Church are less authoritative than God infallibly speaking from His Throne?

 

[PRmerger]

whats not permitted?
going to another Parish because you disagree with female Eucaristic Ministers; Ad Orientem worship , or you are just weary of watching those who everyone knows are in unrepentant mortal sin partake of the Eucharist?

Firstly, there’s no such thing as “female Eucharistic Ministers”.

The Eucharistic Minister is the priest or the deacon.

Lay people who distribute the Eucharist are called Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion.

But as far as your bigger argument goes, you are saying that there are some things that Catholics are permitted to have their own opinions on.

And you are correct–we can go to a different parish if we do not wish to receive communion from a female EMHC, or wish to celebrate with a priest who is Ad Orientum.

However, these differences are minor compared to the HUGE and SIGNIFICANT differences from Protestantism because of basing their doctrines on the Bible Alone.

Because of this, Protestantism cannot agree on:

Attend weekly services, don’t have to go to Church
Baptism–immersion? sprinkling? sacrament? ordinance? adults only? infants only?
Can men and women sit together during services?
Charity or no charity (help one another or let them help
Church leadership, or no leadership
Death/Soul Sleep
Divorce
Drinking allowed, drinking not allowed)
Head coverings or no head coverings
Health and wealth gospel
Hell, or no hell
Homosexuality
Is God‘s Holy Name Jehovah
Is it permissible for women to teach Scripture?
Judge others, don’t judge others
Music or no music (Singing or no singing)
Once saved, always saved
Ordination
Predestination
Rapture
Sola scriptura/private interpretation
The Eucharist (Communion)
themselves)
Tongues (some believe others are not saved if they don’t speak in tongues)
Trinity vs. Unitarianism
What is original sin and its effects on humanity
What’s a sin, what is not a sin
When to celebrate the Lord’s Day
Women pastors, no women pastors

With Catholicism, we have a magisterium we can look to for the final answer on the above.

 

[PRmerger]

would be true to state that authoritative proclamations (that are NOT consider infallible) from the Catholic Church are less authoritative than God infallibly speaking from His Throne?

Yes. There are different levels of authority in the teachings of the CC.

 

[alwayswill]

alwayswill, it would be nice if you acknowledged that you do indeed believe that the Church has been guided by the Holy Spirit and thus protected from teaching error, at least as it applies to the canon of the NT.

Yes?

We are agreed here?

nope: I don’t believe the Canon was infallible proclaimed.

beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/2007/01/sproul-bible-is-fallible-collection-of.html

"
• ROMAN CATHOLIC VIEW: The Bible is an infallible collection of infallible books.

• PROTESTANT VIEW: The Bible is a fallible collection of infallible books.
"

a much deeper discussion here:
[/url

so no, I don’t hold that we have an infallible Canon](http://www.aomin.org/aoblog/index.php/2010/03/20/the-canon-as-infallible-sacred-tradition/)

 

[PRmerger]

nope: I don’t believe the Canon was infallible proclaimed.

beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/2007/01/sproul-bible-is-fallible-collection-of.html

"
• ROMAN CATHOLIC VIEW: The Bible is an infallible collection of infallible books.

• PROTESTANT VIEW: The Bible is a fallible collection of infallible books.
"

a much deeper discussion here:
aomin.org/aoblog/index.php/2010/03/20/the-canon-as-infallible-sacred-tradition/



That, my friend, is the most dangerous thing you’ve ever said as a Christian.

If you cannot know that Hebrews is theopneustos but that the Epistle of Clement is not…then you cannot know ANYTHING at all about God’s revelation.

That’s scary stuff, my friend. Scary, scary, scary.

 

[Duane1966]

God’s authority is ALWAYS infallible authority.
(agreed?)
All writings breathed out by God are infallible
(agreed?)

Is the Catholic Church’s authority ALWAYS infallible?
Is everything the Catholic Church proclaims infallible?

When God speaks through His Church, it would be infallible, agreed?

Can you tell me where in Scripture, God has said things that He has spoken that are written down, have more authority than things He has spoken authoritatively that are not?

This is what it boils down to, again from calledtocommunion.com:

Consider first the question of the authority of Scripture. Both the Protestant and Catholic positions affirm the authority of Scripture as the divinely inspired (“God-breathed”) written word of God.4 So the Catholic teaching concerning the authority of Scripture entails that Scripture has authority over the Church, because the Church affirms both that Scripture is God’s word, and that God is the ultimate authority over His Church. Therefore the Protestant-Catholic disagreement concerning Scripture is not as simple as saying that according to one side Scripture has authority over the Church and that according to the other side Scripture does not have authority over the Church. Rather, the actual disagreement regarding Scripture is over four points that are not per se about the divine authority of Scripture. They are: (a) whether Christ also gave teaching authority to men, (b) whether that teaching authority continues through the succession of ordinations, (c) whether that teaching authority includes the authority to determine what is the authentic interpretation of Scripture, so as to determine for the Church what is orthodoxy and what is heresy, and (d) whether the deposit of faith is not limited to what was included in the Scriptures but also includes the Apostolic Tradition which the Apostles preached orally, and is preserved in the Church Fathers. The Catholic position answers yes to each of those four.5 Protestantism answers no to one or more of these four.

 

[alwayswill]

That, my friend, is the most dangerous thing you’ve ever said as a Christian.

If you cannot know that Hebrews is theopneustos but that the Epistle of Clement is not…then you cannot know ANYTHING at all about God’s revelation.

That’s scary stuff, my friend. Scary, scary, scary.

I believe the Canon is the correct collection of writings because God is Sovereign.

The Bible came from God’s sovereign Will.
examples of God’s will
like Cyrus (Isaiah 45)
“For the sake of Jacob my servant, of Israel my chosen, I summon you by name and bestow on you a title of honor, though you do not acknowledge me………I will strengthen you, though you have not acknowledged me,”

like Pharaoh: (Exodus 9:15)
But I have raised you up for this very purpose, that I might show you my power and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.

like Pilate (John 19)
Pilate said. “Don’t you realize I have power either to free you or to crucify you?”
Jesus answered, "You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above

Did God use Cyrus, Pharaoh, and Pilate to accomplish His will?
Yes, absolutely.

Were the actions of Cyrus, Pharaoh, and Pilate in accordance with the sovereign plan of God?
Yes, absolutely.

Did Cyrus, Pharaoh, and Pilate do EXACTLY wanted God wanted to be done?
YES, absolutely

Are Cyrus, Pharaoh, and Pilate infallible?
NO!

Note: I did NOT just say the Catholic Church is like Cyrus, Pharaoh, and Pilate

The POINT is that God uses all types of people to accomplish his Sovereign Will; that does NOT mean those kingdoms, institutions, or people are infallible!

To the Catholic Church ; Thank you, thank you, thank you! for being a humble servant used by God.

This is not a rhetorical questions to you.
Do you think God allowed any books to be left out or to be added by mistake?

 

[alwayswill]

When God speaks through His Church, it would be infallible, agreed?

Can you tell me where in Scripture, God has said things that He has spoken that are written down, have more authority than things He has spoken authoritatively that are not?

This is what it boils down to, again from calledtocommunion.com:

that is not a requirement:
If the only things God has ever written down were the Ten Commandments: they wold still carry the same authority as God speaking from his Throne : even if it did not state it .
**
Writings breathed out by God have the same authority as God , not because of what they say, but because of of what they are.
**

 

[PRmerger]

I believe the Canon is the correct collection of writings because God is Sovereign.

That’s great, alwayswill.

And I think you know that it’s correct…because the Catholic Church was guided by the Holy Spirit.

And if it was guided by the Holy Spirit…

that means you know it’s…

infallible.

You know, with certainty, that what’s included in the 27 book table of contents belongs there…and what was excluded doesn’t belong there.

That you can’t say that it’s infallible is a marked defect…it’s a recusance, an obduracy, that is perilous.

You would rather go through all sorts of mental gymnastics rather than simply say, “Yes, I believe that the Catholic Church has been given the ability to profess something without error.”

 

[spina1953]

The thing is alwayswill is that so many make the claim that they are guided by the Holy Spirit when they read Scripture, yet the fact remains that for example 5 people read the same passage of Scripture and each has a different interpretation or understanding of the passage but each claims to be guided by the Holy Spirit. All can’t be correct so who is one to believe? This is why sola scriptura does not work as while Scripture is God breathed or inspired, sola scriptura suggests that the individual is able to read and understand and interpret Scripture claiming to be guided by the Holy Spirit. Yet, how does not know with any certainty that that person is actually being guided by the Holy Spirit? Anyone can make that claim and are we just to believe that everyone who reads Scripture and clams that he/she is led and guided by the Holy Spirit is correct in their understanding and interpretation when the fact of the matter is that as I said 5 people claim to understand and is being led and guided by the Holy Spirit each having a different interpretation and understanding and we are to believe each is correct? The Holy Spirit is not the author of chaos either all are incorrect or one is correct and who is to know this? It makes no difference if Catholic or non-Catholic as each can and do often have a different understanding of what Scripture actually says and means. This is why the Catholic Church has the authority to interpret Scripture so all can understand and its the Holy Spirit that is infallable not humans. The Catholic Church does not just decide a meaning of Scripture till it is called into question as to what is to be believed. That might take years if not centuries. The Catholic individual who reads Scripture does so understanding that the meaning derived needs to conform to what the Catholic Church guided by the Holy Spirit understands it, not what the individual decides it means.

 

[PRmerger]

The POINT is that God uses all types of people to accomplish his Sovereign Will; that does NOT mean those kingdoms, institutions, or people are infallible!

You need to remove the idea that “infallibility” has anything to do with “omniscience”.

IF you believe that the canon of the NT is correct, then that NECESSARILY means that you believe in infallibility, as the Church defines it. (Not as you define it).

That you refuse to say this is puzzling.

To the Catholic Church ; Thank you, thank you, thank you! for being a humble servant used by God.

Yes. That’s exactly what we teach.

And if she was prevented from proclaiming that the Epistle of Clement is theopneustos, then she was given the charism of infallibility.

You must be able to acknowledge this, if you are going to be consonant with logic and reason.

This is not a rhetorical questions to you.
Do you think God allowed any books to be left out or to be added by mistake?

No.

If there’s something that’s left out, let’s say, the Protoevangelium of James, that’s actually the Word of God, then God has not protected His Church…and we may be missing some key revelation. That’s scary.

And if there’s something that’s added by mistake, say, Hebrews, then God has not protected His Church. Maybe, since Hebrews teaches against reincarnation (“it is appointed for men to die once”) that this is incorrect? God really does reincarnate us, as the Hindus and Buddhists profess? That’s scary, too.

So you see how perilous it is to embrace the idea that God did not infallibly give the canon of the NT to the Church?

 

[Duane1966]

that is not a requirement:
If the only things God has ever written down were the Ten Commandments: they wold still carry the same authority as God speaking from his Throne : even if it did not state it .
**
Writings breathed out by God have the same authority as God , not because of what they say, but because of of what they are.
**

Authoritative teachings from the Church, since they are God-breathed, are Him speaking from His throne, and have the same authority as God, not because of what they say, but because of what they are. He clearly says it is Him speaking: He who hears you, hears me.

 

[alwayswill]

The thing is alwayswill is that so many make the claim that they are guided by the Holy Spirit when they read Scripture, yet the fact remains that for example 5 people read the same passage of Scripture and each has a different interpretation or understanding of the passage but each claims to be guided by the Holy Spirit. All can’t be correct so who is one to believe? This is why sola scriptura does not work as while Scripture is God breathed or inspired, sola scriptura suggests that the individual is able to read and understand and interpret Scripture claiming to be guided by the Holy Spirit. Yet, how does not know with any certainty that that person is actually being guided by the Holy Spirit? Anyone can make that claim and are we just to believe that everyone who reads Scripture and clams that he/she is led and guided by the Holy Spirit is correct in their understanding and interpretation when the fact of the matter is that as I said 5 people claim to understand and is being led and guided by the Holy Spirit each having a different interpretation and understanding and we are to believe each is correct? The Holy Spirit is not the author of chaos either all are incorrect or one is correct and who is to know this? It makes no difference if Catholic or non-Catholic as each can and do often have a different understanding of what Scripture actually says and means. This is why the Catholic Church has the authority to interpret Scripture so all can understand and its the Holy Spirit that is infallable not humans. The Catholic Church does not just decide a meaning of Scripture till it is called into question as to what is to be believed. That might take years if not centuries. The Catholic individual who reads Scripture does so understanding that the meaning derived needs to conform to what the Catholic Church guided by the Holy Spirit understands it, not what the individual decides it means.

SINNERS (and we all are ) misunderstanding the writings breathed out by God never has and never will diminish the authority of those writings:
**
An infallible teaching authority never has and never will produce unity of belief**

 

[alwayswill]

heading out:

Have a blessed Christmas

Love you all!

 

[AmbroseSJ]

that is not a requirement:
If the only things God has ever written down were the Ten Commandments: they wold still carry the same authority as God speaking from his Throne : even if it did not state it .
**
Writings breathed out by God have the same authority as God , not because of what they say, but because of of what they are.
**

According to your thinking, the writings of Allah in the Quran have the same authority.

 

[Duane1966]

I believe the Canon is the correct collection of writings because God is Sovereign.

Like St. Augustine, I believe it, because the Catholic Church said it was so. When she proclaimed it, I knew it was Jesus proclaiming it.

This is not a rhetorical questions to you.
Do you think God allowed any books to be left out or to be added by mistake?

R.C. Sproul does.

 

[PRmerger]

R.C. Sproul does.

Oh, yeah. As do a lot of other Christians who have departed from the authority of the CC.

This is so frightful, that now there are folks who have taken for themselves the authority to exclude the writings of Paul:

voiceofjesus.org/paulvsjesus.html

They call St. Paul the “false apostle”.

And then there are folks who believe in Paul’s writings ONLY.

And then there are the folks who believe in Jesus’ words only.

Very scary stuff, when one takes authority for what he has no right to have.

 

[PRmerger]

heading out:

Have a blessed Christmas

Love you all!

A Merry Christmas to you, as well!

 

[Duane1966]

Oh, yeah. As do a lot of other Christians who have departed from the authority of the CC.

This is so frightful, that now there are folks who have taken for themselves the authority to exclude the writings of Paul:

voiceofjesus.org/paulvsjesus.html

They call St. Paul the “false apostle”.

And then there are folks who believe in Paul’s writings ONLY.

And then there are the folks who believe in Jesus’ words only.

Very scary stuff, when one takes authority for what he has no right to have.

Yes. There was a person on here before who rejects the writings of Paul.

 

[PRmerger]

Yes. There was a person on here before who rejects the writings of Paul.

And if the Protestants wish not to be hypocritical, they have to say: yes, that’s certainly fine for you to do this, if that’s what you’ve prayerfully discerned.