Uhhh…since when are men no longer responsible for their own behaviors? Experiment over…indeed.
Walk around naked – use the same excuse. It’s an excuse.
Are we talking about women walking around naked? No, I don’t believe so. But if that is the best answer you can come up with for a very pitiful argument on your part.
Perhaps then men should wear skirts too. I can recall overhearing a conversation of some women sitting watching men walk by commenting on how their butts looked. And who can say what else their eyes are drawn to. Hey, even I can’t watch a football game without looking at the tight ends (and I am not talking about the postion
)Take a bunch of men, put them in pants, have them turn around, and what you will see in about half of them is their underwear sticking out and the crack of their butt showing. And you worry about females in jeans. Perhaps we should require any male over 40 to wear dresses.
It was in the second link provided by the OP.
Honestly, I think there is an argument for balance in everything. The poster who thinks jeans are more provocative than a skirt…well, how long should the skirt be, because years ago, ANKLES were considered too provocative to be revealed! So should we go to a burka? Hair is provocative, some men are turned on by a collar bone, or a waist…do you want all women to be in large potato sacks?I agree. I have three boys and one of our rules is, you do not walk around shirtless in the house. Or even outside. We are teaching our sons modesty. If they’re outgrowing their shorts to the point where you can see underwear, they get the next size up. Sleeveless shirts are a concession my DH has allowed when it’s very hot outside, but I would prefer they not wear them.Take a bunch of men, put them in pants, have them turn around, and what you will see in about half of them is their underwear sticking out and the crack of their butt showing. And you worry about females in jeans. Perhaps we should require any male over 40 to wear dresses.
Absolutely!It was in the second link provided by the OP.
Let every Catholic woman pray and discern their own standards of modesty, with reasonable guidelines. I have a SIL who wears a mantilla to church, and that is her choice, she probably feels it gets her into the proper prayerful mindset. I can be in the proper prayerful mindset without a headcovering.
This is just getting perverted. Look up at the ceiling and mind your own business pervy. Do you think women don’t check out men’s stuff? If we have to start wearing them, then so should you.
You don’t think men look at women in skirts? They just look at different parts of the body. There is no difference between modest skirts and modest jeans (from a male perspective), and I can tell you from personal experience that an overly short skirt is much more distracting than overly tight jeans.
Good post! Thanks for all that info.I’m sorry for sticking my nose in this, but as I was reading about this whole ting about roles I’m reminded of three very influential Catholic women in their own time and circle.
Thousands of religious sisters educated our young people at Catholic Colleges. They were PhD’s in science, mathematics, philosophy, humanities, theology and other disciplines. Without them, many young Catholics in many countries would not have received an academic education, because they were poor and often discriminated against, especially if they were black, Native American or women.
- Catherine of Siena was a lay woman, not a religious and not a man. She was a theologian, a spiritual director and an ambassador within the Church. She later became one of the first two women Doctors of the Church, a role that was traditionally a male role.
- Dr. Maria Montessori was a the first Italian woman to become a physician. She was a faithful Catholic and it was her faith that drove her to the slums where her patients were lacking a proper education and she created the Montesori school system.
- Mother Teresa’s successor, Sister Nirhmala was sent by Mother Teresa to study law after she became a Missionary of Charity. She graduated with a law degree and a Master’s Degree in Sociology, traditional male roles.
The Catholic Church has promoted the autonomy of women since the time of St. Benedict and maybe earlier.
As to veils, keep in mind that St. Vincent de Paul forbade veils when he wrote the statutes of the Daughters of Charity in the 1700s. St. Elizabeth Ann Seton wore her hair exposed and only wore a widow’s cap when she went out, because she was a widow, not because she was a religious. The Missionary Sisters of the Most Holy Trinity never had a veil or a coif. Their hair was always exposed and they were founded and received Pontifical Rights in the first half of the 20th century. They wore a hat for mass, like any other lay women, because that was in the Canon Law of 1917. It was not in canon law during other periods of Church history.
When Francis and Clare of Assisi founded the Poor Clares it was considered immodest for women not to wear stockings. However, the Poor Clares did not wear shoes or stockings until the 1700s. 500 years after they were founded. Neither did the Discalced Carmelite nuns.
The Maryknoll Sisters and the Medical Mission Sisters were founded as medical communities. To this day, the Medical Mission Sisters are all pharmacists, physicians, lab technicians, hospital administrators, financial administrators, benefits coordinators, hospital social workers and some nurses. These were traditionally male roles. The Church approved them and gave them Pontifical Right.
The Alexian Brothers, the Brothers of St. John of God and the Brothers of the Good Shepherd were all males. They were founded as communities of nurses. To this day, that’s what they do, nursing. These were traditional female roles.
Why is this possible in the Church? Because the Holy See is the final authority and interpretor of Holy Scripture. You can’t take a biblical citation and use it as you wish or take it and use it as a blogger wishes. You must use it as the Church uses it.
The Church does not apply St. Paul’s statements the same way that they are being applied on this thread. The Church interprets them as a call to modesty and proper relationships between the sexes. The Church has approved many things and given many people permission to cross the gender stereotypes long before Vatican II.
In my own community, we have often had women whom we have submitted to as our Ministers and Mothers. Clare is considered our Mother and one of our founders. Mother Angelica is the Mother Foundress of the Missionary Friars of the Eternal Word, a community of men and the Knights of the Holy Eucharist, another community of men.
Mother Teresa is the Mother Foundress of the Missionaries of Charity, which is both male and female.
The same respect and obedience is given to Teresa of Avila among Discalced Carmelites by males and females.
These women held the title of Reverend, which is reserved for clerics. But they were allowed to be called Reverened Mother. They had the same power inside their community that a bishop has over his diocese. That’s why the Bishop’s Conference will never be able to take over EWTN. The Poor Clares founded it and they were free to give it over to a non-profit coroporation to run it. The local bishop had no jurisdiction.
I call all these examples crossing the lines of gender stereotypes.
If one wants to discuss modesty, then call it that. But don’t pigeon hole the genders and say that it’s the Catholic thing to do, because the Church has only limited the Sacrament of Holy Orders to men. All other forms of power and authority, all other forms of ministry and roles in society, have been exercised by men and women religious equally. As to forms of dress, in the Vatican, there are signs everywhere that indicate that women must dress modestly, the pictures include skirts and slacks, blouses and dresses with sleeves, not head gear. Women may receive communion from the Holy Father wearing slacks and their head uncovered.
Those sisters who wear secular dress have permission to do so from the Holy See. The Constitutions of religious institutes must be approved by the Sacred Congregation for Religious and Secular Institutes, a part of the Holy See. There is no disobedience. There has never been an order for religious to wear a habit. There was an expressed wish from Pope John Paul II, but he did not make it a binding law. He exalted the value of the habit, but left it to the Major Superiors and the Chapter of each community to decide.
Fraternally,
JR
What I mean, is that while it can be difficult to define modesty for oneself, the different options for modesty helps ensure that it isn’t a terribly difficult concept for people to start implementing in their own lives.Modesty has never ruled out fashionable. I’m remembering the Sisters of St. Joseph. They were originally founded in France. Their original habits looked nothing like the habits that most of us remember, the long black pleated skirt with the nylon veil and the white collar. The original habit was a pleated top and a pleated skirt of any colour. Under it, the sisters wore a corset, because it was the French fashion for women to have very tiny wastes. So every Sister of St. Joseph looked broad at the shoulders with a tiny waist and long legs, because of the long pleated skirt. The skirt was pleated because it was the fashionable thing for ladies at the time. The Jesuits who founded the Sisters of St. Joseph tauhgt them to be ladies and to appear as such.What is modest for one person isn’t for another. Case in point, my sister and I put on the same skirt… for me it’s perfectly modest, but since she’s 3 inches taller than me, and she’s mostly legs, it would be very indecent. Modesty requires honesty about oneself. What my actual v perceived body size is probably the one that I’ve struggled with the most. For me, I’m now a sort of comfortable size X, but at various points I stuffed myself into size X - 2 or X - 4 because of what the tag said. Some other questions that need to be asked… How much cooler will I be in the summer with a halter top versus a cap-sleeve tshirt? How much will people be staring at my funbags versus my face? Would I wear this to visit my grandmother? These would be some basic questions to expand upon.
Unfortunately, it isn’t cut and dried. But fortunately, it isn’t cut and dried.
By the way, I don’t see anything inherently immodest about either pants or skirts in general. Staying away from “badonkadonk” pants and mini-skirts aside, there are many options to chose from. Again, it goes back to the question of “What is modest for me?”
God Bless!
Ericka
You always follow the Church. Francis of Assisi and many other saints used the scriptures to base their rules and constitutions, but once they wrote them, they took them to the Church authorities for approval. They understood that the Church is the only authorized interpreter of the Scriptures.