Proper Dress and Behavior for Catholic Women

[ericka1701]

erica,
A halter top worn at church? No, , I think you can find a nice short sleeved blouse and wear this for an hour at church.
Mini skirts are out no matter where you go.
Pants are okay as long as they cover your derriere when you sit down. Some waist lines are so low they tend to ride down when a person sits down. have you noticed? Not cool.

God bless,
jean8

Please read back carefully over my post… I made the comparison between halter-tops and cap sleeved t-shirt and how halter-tops aren’t really that much cooler than a nice modest capped-sleeve tee. Also, about mini-skirts, and I quote “Staying away from “badonkadonk” pants and mini-skirts aside, there are many options to chose from.”

I wasn’t even talking about dressing for Mass, but dressing for day to day…

By the way, it’s always a very nice at least elbow length blouse and a skirt that is below my knees on any Holy Day of Obligation… I might wear a pair of dressy trousers during weekday Mass, but that is a rare ocasion.

 

[JReducation]

I have a few thoughts and I mean them in all charity.

We must be very careful in interpreting scripture on our own, especially in areas of discipline, such as dress. It is important that the reader know something about hermeneutics and history to understand that message. St. Paul writes about gender roles and uses the clothing example to emphasize his point. However, we must also remember that Paul’s intent was to teach virtue to the Gentiles. It was not a fashion statement. The same virtue still applies today. Each gender has a role and each gender is distinctive. To preserve the distinction is important because it preserves the balance in Creation. It was not Paul’s intent to condemn pants or promote skirts. He probably never thought that would ever be an issue for some. However, he did promote charity.

In these discussion, I find charity to be less present and a stronger focus on dress codes. Dress codes are cultural. There are cultures where men and women do dress very similarly for a variety of anthropological reasons. There are cultures where pants are the ordinary dress for women. The issue that concerns the Church is modesty and purity in all things. As St. Benedict said, temperance at all times. Too push something too much, St. Benedict would have said is a violation of temperance, which upsets the stability of the community. This applies in secular society as well as monastic community.

Also, some have said that they will change their style of dress when the Pope makes some official decree on the matter. We must remember that the Holy Father rarely makes his own official decrees or as they are called in Latin, Motu Proprio. When he does they have to do with matters of greater substance and greater concern to him. Each pope is different in his gifts and his concerns. Most papal decrees are written by commissions and secretariats within the Holy See and signed by the Holy Father. It is highly doubtful, but never impossible, that the commissions and secretariats of the Holy See will sit down to discuss a dress code and promulgate it.

Even when it came to religious men and women, the guidelines on dress code were written by the Congregation for Religious and Secular Institutes and signed by the Holy Father. The statements were very broad and focused on the theology of religious garb, not on the style. That was left up to each community to decide, because the Holy See has neither the time and most likely lacks the desire to become involved in this issue.

As to what you may or may not wear in Vatican City or St. Peter’s Basilica I hope that everyone here knows that the pope does not run Vatican City State. He is the Head of State, but ecclesiastic duties and concerns keep him very busy. Vatican City State has its own government, which is separate from the government of the Church. It is headed by a Secretary of State. This government decides such things as dress code for the city and the basilica. How much the pope knows about what goes on is probably very little.

Let’s not forget when scandal broke out about the Vatican bank. The pope had no idea what that was about and did not care. He told the Secretary of State do deal with it. The pope doesn’t even deal with the financial matters of Vatican City. The City State has its own national bank to do this. So I hardly believe that he is very available to deal with dress codes.

By the way, there are times when different popes have allowed women to wear pants as part of their daily wear. A perfect example is certain religious communities of women whose work requires that they dress in slacks because of climate, health conditions and the nature of the work. They have included this in their constitutions and the Holy Father has approved those constitutions. The Constitutions of all religious communities of Pontifical Right must be approved by the Holy Father himself. He is the only one who can approve them, not even the Sacred Congregation for Religious can do so. That’s why they are called Pontifical Rights.

To stay on the path of true Christian spirituality, one must focus on modesty, purity, simplicity, practicality in dress.

Fraternally,

JR

 

[otjm]

I hope we’ll see more direction from the bishops on these matters.

Don’t hold your breath, unless you look really good in blue…

 

[otjm]

Again, I commend the recent article on this at stlouiscatholic.blogspot.com/2008/12/truth-unvieled-head-covering-still.html

There is a phrase among lawyers: he who represents himslef has a fool for a client. The author of that work of “art” would be wise to consider it. What a bunch of hooey! He most certainly did not prove the point he appears to have set out to prove, but he did prove that he knows nothing of Canon law, liturgical law, or how they work.

Interestingly, the matter of women covering their heads at Mass is something that has transcended every culture and all fashions, for 1900 years. It’s only in the context of a social and liturgical revolution that it was set aside. Should this not give us pause?

You have provided no proof whatsoever that head covering has “transcended every culture”; in fact you have not shown that it has transcended one culture and identified hwihc one it is you are proving. You are simply making a bald statement and presuming it is fact. It is a cultural issue which no longer has relevance. Christ did not come so that all women will cover their heads. Itr is a non-issue in Rome; that should alert any serious watcher.

 

[otjm]

Put one a woman in a skirt… put another in jeans…

Take any man, let him look at the lower half of the woman’s body. Ask him exactly where his eyes are drawn.

Experiment over. You’ll find your answer as to why jeans are to be avoided there.

Your “proof” is a non-proof, and only a figment of your imagination. Some men would look at a woman in a skirt, and assuming it is not down to the ankles, they would go ape over the fact that her legs were showing. In other words, different things appeal to different people.

Keep going down your path and you will have women in head to toe covering like the Muslims, a group of males that seem to go absolutely ape over any woman who isn’t in a burkah. Watch how they treat Western women - their reaction show a presumption that all Western women have round heels.

 

[BlyssfulDreamer]

Women wearing pants, is dressing like a man, even if it is now socially accepable, it is still wrong.

I wear pants dear…and look nothing like a man. It is too bad in the year 2009 that we have narrow minded people who put their judgments on other people. You should look towards yourself and that should be your concern.

 

[lilruggsftw]

its clothing who cares well all of you do but really clothes are clothes no matter what

so if a bumb comes to church you will deny him access

 

[Mintaka]

When homeless people come to church, they usually stop by the bathroom first, look in the mirror, smoothe down their clothes and hair, and generally try to make themselves neat and tidy. If they have holes in their clothes, they try to cover them with a sweater or shawl. The ones who don’t are usually mentally ill, not uncaring about how they face God.

When poor people come to church, they usually wear a nice clean outfit, even if it’s their only set of good clothes or just laundering the one shirt they have.

The scandal is that people who have money for nice clothes and plenty of time to get ready for church, often decide to present themselves to God in their grubbies or display all they’ve got to everybody in range.

 

[ericka1701]

When homeless people come to church, they usually stop by the bathroom first, look in the mirror, smoothe down their clothes and hair, and generally try to make themselves neat and tidy. If they have holes in their clothes, they try to cover them with a sweater or shawl. The ones who don’t are usually mentally ill, not uncaring about how they face God.

When poor people come to church, they usually wear a nice clean outfit, even if it’s their only set of good clothes or just laundering the one shirt they have.

The scandal is that people who have money for nice clothes and plenty of time to get ready for church, often decide to present themselves to God in their grubbies or display all they’ve got to everybody in range.

AMEN!

 

[brigid12]

When homeless people come to church, they usually stop by the bathroom first, look in the mirror, smoothe down their clothes and hair, and generally try to make themselves neat and tidy. If they have holes in their clothes, they try to cover them with a sweater or shawl. The ones who don’t are usually mentally ill, not uncaring about how they face God.

When poor people come to church, they usually wear a nice clean outfit, even if it’s their only set of good clothes or just laundering the one shirt they have.

The scandal is that people who have money for nice clothes and plenty of time to get ready for church, often decide to present themselves to God in their grubbies or display all they’ve got to everybody in range.

:clapping:

 

[brigid12]

Hey Brigid12, would you mind if I asked where you get your skirts? I sometimes have trouble finding them, though I always make it a point to scour the stores when I’m out.

Mostly at Penney’s, Goodwill (mostly jeans-skirts), Orvis (catalogue), Soft Surroundings (catalogue), Target or Walmart. I keep my eye out for skirts I like, since I know that when I’m really needing one I won’t be able to find it. Also, I know of women who had skirts I liked who got them at consignment/thrift stores. I used to sew alot, however buying the material for skirts I like (I saved older patterns) got to be much more expensive then buying them already made. If you want some sewing patterns for skirts/dresses (et al), I would try estate sales.

 

[Salonika]

JReducation:

I have a few thoughts and I mean them in all charity.

To stay on the path of true Christian spirituality, one must focus on modesty, purity, simplicity, practicality in dress.

Good summary, JReducation. Pleased you add practicality as one of the criteria.

This is more important for women than men as men’s clothing is, on the whole, much more practical.

Usually no problem for guys with with modesty going up a ladder, a staircase, climbing a hill. playing sport. But is for women wearing a skirt or a dress unless its cullottes. Then there is always a dress over the trousers.

 

[EasterJoy]

Mostly at Penney’s, Goodwill (mostly jeans-skirts), Orvis (catalogue), Soft Surroundings (catalogue), Target or Walmart. I keep my eye out for skirts I like, since I know that when I’m really needing one I won’t be able to find it. Also, I know of women who had skirts I liked who got them at consignment/thrift stores. I used to sew alot, however buying the material for skirts I like (I saved older patterns) got to be much more expensive then buying them already made. If you want some sewing patterns for skirts/dresses (et al), I would try estate sales.

Coldwater Creek also tends to have skirts in modest lengths. Very feminine, and most are not too short. A little pricier, but they’ve been pricing them better in the last month or so.

My frustration has been how many of our local stores carry so many skirts and so few dresses. Since having twins, I look a lot better in a dress.

 

[JReducation]

Interestingly, the matter of women covering their heads at Mass is something that has transcended every culture and all fashions, for 1900 years. It’s only in the context of a social and liturgical revolution that it was set aside. Should this not give us pause?

Actually, this is not the case. I was a missionary in South America for many years. The indigenous women never covered their heads for mass. The tradition was never introduced to them or enforced by the European missionaries who first arrived there. The same is the case in Africa. Those communities in the southern hemisphere where women covered their head for mass are communities where head covering is worn as a custom for solemn celebrations. There are communities where men and women wear special head coverings for certain celebrations. We saw some of this during the World Youth Day mass in Sydney. The indigenous seminarians who brought the Gospel book up to the sanctuary had a distinctive head covering. These were males, because that’s the custom among indigenous males.

Good question. Why don’t you start one? As I said above, I think men should indeed dress up for Mass. But the fact remains that, in the Catholic Church, there has always been this distinctive external sign for women only, the head covering.

The bold is mine. This is not 100% the case. There are communities of religious men who always covered their heads for mass and only took off the head covering at the consecration until after communion, just as bishops do today.

In our own community, the friars wear their capuche or their kippa and they take it off at the consecration until after communion. The capuche and the kippa have been part of the habit since 1209. The monastic orders have had it longer than that.

It is equally interesting and true that the patroness of the Franciscan Order is the Immaculate Conception. But the Franciscan portrayal of Mary is our Lady of the Angels, Mary standing without a veil, being supported by cherubs, and her hair flowing down over her shoulders. This portrayal of Mary without a veil has hung in Franciscan houses since it was first painted more than 400 years ago.

I believe that the woman without the veil is also a part of Catholic history. We have to be careful not to confuse Catholic history with European Catholicism. Catholic history is broader and richer than that.

Fraternally,

JR

 

[EasterJoy]

We have to be careful not to confuse Catholic history with European Catholicism. Catholic history is broader and richer than that.

Fraternally,

JR

Good point. European traditions are very often beautiful and edifying, but they are of the “t” type, not the “T” type. The “T” type refer to the Traditions of the Universal Church.

 

[JReducation]

Good point. European traditions are very often beautiful and edifying, but they are of the “t” type, not the “T” type. The “T” type refer to the Traditions of the Universal Church.

One of the most elaborate and beautiful European traditions is the mantilla. What people in the USA forget is how and by whom the mantilla was worn and why St. Teresa of Avila abhorred it.

The mantilla was worn by Spanish ladies of the aristocracy over a very elaborate coif of hair adorned with pearls or other gems and an ivory comb to prop it upon their heads. It was accompanied by an ivory fan. The fan and the mantilla were used very seductively by young women in the marriage mart who would seductively cover their faces and send signals to their male victims with their large dark eyes.

Teresa of Avila once said that this was the biggest bunch of religious nonsense she had ever seen in her life. That’s why she changed the veil of the Carmelite nuns so that it does not flow over the nun’s shoulders like the mantilla does.

The Spanish women adopted this form of veil from the Muslims who governed most of Spain from the 7th century to the 15th century. The Mantilla is really a Spanish aristocratic Catholic adaptation of an Islamic custom. Catholic women in Spain wore it not only to mass but to fiestas and other events where women went to see and be seen.

The use of the mantilla as a religious veil was brought to the United States by the Puerto Ricans in the 1950s. The Mexicans introduced its use much earlier than that, but not as a liturgical garment.

Nonetheless, it is a beautiful European Catholic custom. But it is not a universal one. This is one example of many customs and disciplines that were incorporated into Church law when the Church was predominantly European.

The code of 1983 tried to take any unnecessary European customs out of the law and express laws and disciplines that are necessary for the universal Church. In doing so, some European traditions went out, because they did little for the universal Church, even though they were beautiful and some traditions from other parts of the world were included in the revised code, because they are good for the entire Church.

Church history is very beautiful and very interesting.

Fraternally,

JR

 

[estesbob]

One of the most elaborate and beautiful European traditions is the mantilla. What people in the USA forget is how and by whom the mantilla was worn and why St. Teresa of Avila abhorred it.

JR

I had no idea what you were talking about so i went and found one:

http://www.lands-faraway.com/Veils/Mantilla SM-943 Vanesa 434.jpg

 

[AngelaBarbara]

I hear there is a shop in the Vatican City territory that sell men’s underpants with pictures of crotches on them. I have not been there myself, but do not approve of this.

Ick! I’ve been twice to Vatican City, and have never seen anything like this. Across the street from Vatican City, though, there are all manner of very tacky tourist shops, and I can certainly imagine such things being available there. But not in Vatican City, which is a separate country apart from Italy and from Rome. I cannot imagine anything of the sort being sold in Vatican City.

 

[mystified]

As I was entering our parish church yesterday afternoon, there was a photographer taking pictures following a Quinceñera Mass.
My first reaction to the bevvy of teenage girls was, “They are undressed!”
They weren’t really undressed, but it is highly questionable whether they were attired appropriately for being in a church. The dresses were sleeveless and strapless, mostly in fleshtones with maroon decorations (sorry, I’m a guy and not attuned to descriptions of dresses, etc.).
The honoree was in a white dress that looked like she’d thrown on and almost missed.
At least the boys were dressed modestly.

 

[Shin]

I hope this is the case and that the person who told me about it was mistaken. Perhaps I can challenge him on it now if you’re certain there are no stores selling undergarments within the territory itself?

I believed it because he to all appears is an honest person, and it fit with the sorrowful act of Pope John Paul IInd removing the fig leaves and loincloths from the nudes in art, and allow partially nude people to participate in his liturgies due to ‘culture’.

Frankly, when I hear Protestants being scandalized by such things upon visits to Rome, calling it ‘not family friendly’ it bothers me as a Catholic. I had nearly nothing to say.

I am not a cultural relativist unlike many who think simply because some things have been permitted awhile or are tolerated in some cultures that makes them proper.

There are no subjective standards with God. I believe in the reasons of the previous popes, quite a few of them and saints too who kept the fig leaves and loincloths on and more safe and objective standards in this troubled world such as these saints spoke of. We can’t be cultural relativists and be dictated to by worldly aberrations in fashions!

“All lack of modesty in seeing, hearing, speaking, smelling, or touching, is impurity, especially when the heart takes pleasure therein. St. Paul says without any hesitation that impurity and uncleanness, or foolish and unseemly talking, are not to be “so much as named” among Christians. Remember that there are things which blemish perfect purity, without being in themselves downright acts of impurity. Anything which tends to lessen its intense sensitiveness, or to cast the slightest shadow over it, is of this nature; and all evil thoughts or foolish acts of levity or heedlessness are as steps towards the most direct breaches of the law of chastity. Avoid the society of persons who are wanting in purity, especially if they are bold, as indeed impure people always are.”

St. Francis de Sales

Ave Maria. +