Prophets after Jesus

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And here’s a passage from his recent book:
“…Ascension’ does not mean departure into a remote region of the cosmos but, rather, the continuing closeness that the disciples experience so strongly that it becomes a source of lasting joy…This reference to the cloud is unambiguously theological language. It presents Jesus’ departure, not as a journey to the stars, but as his entry into the mystery of God. It evokes an entirely different order of magnitude, a different dimension of being…The New Testament, from the Acts of the Apostles to the Letter to the Hebrews, describes the ‘place’ to which the cloud took Jesus, using the language of Psalm 110:1, as sitting (or standing) at God’s right hand. What does this mean? It does not refer to some distant cosmic space where God has, as it were, set up his throne and given Jesus a place beside the throne. God is not in one space alongside other spaces. God is God - he is the premise and the ground of all the space there is, but he himself is not part of it. God stands in relation to all spaces as Lord and Creator. His presence is not special, but divine. ‘Sitting at God’s right hand’ means participating in this divine dominion over space…
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The departing Jesus does not make his way to some distant star. He enters into communion of power and life with the living God, into God’s dominion over space. Hence he has not ‘gone away,’ but now and forever by God’s own power he is present with us and for us…
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When Jesus was taken from their [the apostles’] sight by the cloud, this does not mean that he was transported to another cosmic location, but that he was taken up into God’s very being, participating in God’s powerful presence in the world…"
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  • Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI, Jesus of Nazareth, 2011 (pp. 282-283)
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servant, you did not couch your false assertion with any kind of qualfication. you claimed that what you wrote is what catholicism teaches. that is not true. if you had said that this is how you understand catholicism it would not have been a falsehood.

also, the citation you provided does not support in ANY way your earlier false assertion.

here is part of YOUR citation, ““We believe that Mary, like Christ her son, has already defeated death and triumphs now in heavenly glory with the totality of her being, ‘soul and body,’ ” he 9the pope) said at the Mass.”

soul and body in heaven, that is catholic teaching.
 
servant,

you seem to be laboring under the mistaken impression that because something is outside of this universe it can not have a physical nature.

that may be what bahai teach and believe, but it is not what the RCC teaches or believes.
 
eddie_too said:
servant, you did not couch your false assertion with any kind of qualfication. you claimed that what you wrote is what catholicism teaches. that is not true. if you had said that this is how you understand catholicism it would not have been a falsehood.

also, the citation you provided does not support in ANY way your earlier false assertion.

here is part of YOUR citation, ““We believe that Mary, like Christ her son, has already defeated death and triumphs now in heavenly glory with the totality of her being, ‘soul and body,’ ” he 9the pope) said at the Mass.”

soul and body in heaven, that is catholic teaching.
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So how do you reconcile a “body” in a place that is not in the cosmos?

Its either in the cosmos and has a physical body.

OR, its not in the cosmos and is not physical. There are not two physical universes according to all the billions of hours of searching the skies…

🤷
 
eddie_too said:
servant,

you seem to be laboring under the mistaken impression that because something is outside of this universe it can not have a physical nature.

that may be what bahai teach and believe, but it is not what the RCC teaches or believes.
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My friend, that is a total contradiction in terms within one sentence.

Anything physical is discoverable by science.

Are you saying that science can one day pop in and out visiting God’s throne?

.
 
Jesus and Mary are in heaven “body and soul”. that is a fact. there is nothing to reconcile.

i have no idea why you limit the greatness and glory of God by declaring your understanding makes it impossible for almighty God to create an existence for human beings that is both not in this universe and that respects that human beings have both a physical and a spiritual aspect to their God created beings.
 
servant,

the issue i am discussing is YOUR false assertion about what constitutes RC teaching.

you are the one who wants to change the discussion to be about the fact that you do not understand RC teaching and the related fact (at least to you it is a fact) that therefore it cannot be true.
 
eddie_too said:
Jesus and Mary are in heaven “body and soul”. that is a fact. there is nothing to reconcile.

i have no idea why you limit the greatness and glory of God by declaring your understanding makes it impossible for almighty God to create an existence for human beings that is both not in this universe and that respects that human beings have both a physical and a spiritual aspect to their God created beings.
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So you are telling me that heaven is a physical place, but not in the cosmos?

So there is a physical place that exists somewhere in the universe that science will never discover where Jesus and Mary are currently residing?

Is that what you believe?

.
 
eddie_too said:
servant,

the issue i am discussing is YOUR false assertion about what constitutes RC teaching.

you are the one who wants to change the discussion to be about the fact that you do not understand RC teaching and the related fact (at least to you it is a fact) that therefore it cannot be true.
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I’m discussing Pope Benedict
So does Pope Benedict not understand Catholic teaching?

:confused:
 
i believe what the RCC teaches. that belief system includes the belief that heaven is not in this universe or subject to the laws of this universe; and, that heaven already contains the bodies of Jesus and Mary.
 
the pope emeritus understands RC teaching better than most people now living.

he teaches that Jesus’ body and Mary’s body are both in heaven.
 
eddie_too said:
i believe what the RCC teaches. that belief system includes the belief that heaven is not in this universe or subject to the laws of this universe; and, that heaven already contains the bodies of Jesus and Mary.
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So if it is not part of this universe, do you believe in multiple universes, which are all physical places?

.
 
servant,

have you admitted that what you claimed as catholic teaching was wrong? if so, we can progress to discussing some of what benedict XVI has written about heaven.

but, i have to admit i am far less familiar with benedict’s theological writings than i am with the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

i will add that the theological writings of benedict do not possess the same authority as does the Catchism. they do not trump the Catechsim and Benedict’s writings must be understood in light of what is contained in the Catechsim
 
eddie_too said:
servant,

have you admitted that what you claimed as catholic teaching was wrong? if so, we can progress to discussing some of what benedict XVI has written about heaven.

but, i have to admit i am far less familiar with benedict’s theological writings than i am with the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

i will add that the theological writings of benedict do not possess the same authority as does the Catchism. they do not trump the Catechsim and Benedict’s writings must be understood in light of what is contained in the Catechsim
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Well it is important therefore that you find a quote that says that heaven IS part of the cosmos and IS a physical place. Otherwise Benedict’s writings do hold some authority, since surely he would not write things that are in direct contradiction to the Church for fear of being deviant to the teachings. No?

.
 
to the best of my knowledge, neither science or the RCC teaches that there are multiple universes.
 
i believe what benedict is writing about is the idea that this universe is not all of creation.

there are spiritual beings who have no physical attributes. for example, angels, devils and the Three Persons of the Holy Trinity (although the Trinity is at another level of existence from the angels and devils.

there are physical creatures that have no spiritual attributes. for example, all of the plants and animals and minerals and elements.

humans are the only creatures that have BOTH physical and spiritual attributes. that is the way that God created them.

heaven is not part of this physical universe. that is the point benedict is trying to make. no RC pontiff has ever taught that Jesus and Mary’s physical (although glorified, transformed) bodies are decayed instead of being in heaven.
 
eddie_too said:
i believe what benedict is writing about is the idea that this universe is not all of creation.

there are spiritual beings who have no physical attributes. for example, angels, devils and the Three Persons of the Holy Trinity (although the Trinity is at another level of existence from the angels and devils.

there are physical creatures that have no spiritual attributes. for example, all of the plants and animals and minerals and elements.

humans are the only creatures that have BOTH physical and spiritual attributes. that is the way that God created them.

heaven is not part of this physical universe. that is the point benedict is trying to make. no RC pontiff has ever taught that Jesus and Mary’s physical (although glorified, transformed) bodies are decayed instead of being in heaven.
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This still doesn’t tell me where else does a physical body reside if it is not in the cosmos, unless there are multiple universes?

Sorry, Eddie, if Catholicism believes in a rational, scientific approach to its theology it must have something to help me understand.

I’m enrolled into RCIA after Easter, and if this is what is going to happen I’ll lose my mind and sense of humanity.

🙂
 
there are far more things that i do not know than i do know.

therefore, in answer to your question, i often find myself wondering about creation.

i wonder about many different aspects of creation with which i lack knowledge. they may be social aspects, cultural aspects, physical aspects.

however, i try not to spend too much time wondering about aspects of creation that are considered spiritual mysteries.

the exact nature of heaven is mostly a mystery. what has been revealed to us about heaven contains the following, but my list is not exhaustive because i do not know everything the RC teaches about heaven.

about heaven we know, that it is infinite. there is no limit on how many human beings can go to heaven. we know that it is eternal. once the beatific vision is attained or given, it will never be lost. we know that in heaven dwell the glorified bodies and human souls of mary and Jesus. we know that there is no sin or effects of sin in heaven. we know that we retain our unique, individual self-consciousnesses in heaven. our identities do not cease to exist.

that is some of what the RC teaches about heaven. in reality, the only things we know about heaven are those that have been revealed to us through the RCC.
 
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