Prophets after Jesus

[FathersKnowBest]

Please read the exchanges between myself and eddie too on page 22 of this thread

The pagination is configurable on this website. We’re now on page 3 the way I have it set up. I’m not gonna wait until we post 19 more pages.

Benedict’s passage of interest is post # 317.

Yeah, so? He’s saying that “Heaven” where “God dwells” isn’t some celestial planet.
Why? Did you think that’s what we believe?

Visions are quite explicit FKB.

Never having dabbled in LSD, I wouldn’t know.

Why are you changing the subject to visions?
Jesus conversed with them and said explicitely that He was no ghost.

 

[Servant19]

Then what was the need that the stone be rolled away from the sepulchre if he could simply have walked through it?

And he ate fish infront of his disciples and showed them his physical wounds to prove that he was the same person who had the very same physical body.

Peace.

There were a LOT of visions my friend

Who were the “…suddenly two men in clothes that gleamed like lightning stood beside them”??

The reality and the spiritual reality are two separate entities. Narratives were used to convey the spiritual reality.

.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

servant,

you seem to be laboring under the mistaken impression that because something is outside of this universe it can not have a physical nature.

that may be what bahai teach and believe, but it is not what the RCC teaches or believes.

Amen, eddie too,

Ditto, for a moment there I thought I entered the twilight zone

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

servant,

you seem to be laboring under the mistaken impression that because something is outside of this universe it can not have a physical nature.

that may be what bahai teach and believe, but it is not what the RCC teaches or believes.

Amen, eddie too;

I thought I entered a twilight zone when I read Servant19 post

 

[Servant19]

The pagination is configurable on this website. We’re now on page 3 the way I have it set up. I’m not gonna wait until we post 19 more pages.

I have no idea what this means…

Yeah, so? He’s saying that “Heaven” where “God dwells” isn’t some celestial planet.
Why? Did you think that’s what we believe?

Well, obviously if it was a physical body, it ascended to a physical place…

How do you reconcile that a physical body (which you claim Jesus was) ascended to a “non-physical” place which is what Benedict says He went to?

Never having dabbled in LSD, I wouldn’t know.

Why are you changing the subject to visions?
Jesus conversed with them and said explicitely that He was no ghost.

Who ever said a spiritual entity is a “ghost”?

I don’t believe in ghosts, I do however believe in a “natural body” as distinct from a “spiritual body” as Paul clearly states in 1 Corinthians 15

.

 

[Servant19]

Amen, eddie too,

Ditto, for a moment there I thought I entered the twilight zone

So, you too believe in two physical universes Gabriel?

 

[Servant19]

Oh really? your going to tell me the Catholic’s don’t believe in the full resurrection of Jesus Christ, and his appearance during the 40 days after the resurrection was not real but only a false vision of Jesus physcical body eating fish after the resurrection was not a physical reality! You got Catholicism all wrong.

So Servant19 and his/her view of Catholicism has the power and authority to place God in a box, who cannot raise the physical dead or allow Moses or Elijah to appear with Jesus?

Maybe you are confusing Approved Apparations with the Transfiguration which are two different revelations of God.

My point is John announced the coming of the Messiah Jesus in the Spirit of Elijah. Elijah appeared in physical form with Jesus transfigured that made this physical event appear.

The debate is open for interpretation whether or not a physical (eternal) revelation of the transfiguration appeared as recored in the gospel, or by a heavenly vision. In either case the physical appearance of Elijah is seen by eyewitnesses and Jesus resurrection.

Dialogue emphatically denied Elijah never came; The gospels have proved him wrong. Elijah did appear, both in the spirit of John and physically appeared at the Transfiguration.

Peace be with you

…and it seems you also believe that Moses was resurrected from the dead too.

.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Well it is important therefore that you find a quote that says that heaven IS part of the cosmos and IS a physical place. Otherwise Benedict’s writings do hold some authority, since surely he would not write things that are in direct contradiction to the Church for fear of being deviant to the teachings. No?

.

In all fairness Servant19; eddie has corrected what the CCC teaches about the limitless power of God, is what Catholics believe and we never place God almighty in a box that limits God’s soverign power over matter and over things of the Spirit because both were created by God.

From you questions, you place God in a box, and attempt to put the natural powers of cosmos on a par or greater than our Creator.

For example; You mention multiple cosmos? different spheres or domains of being? are you serious. When we discuss Catholicism we discuss what God has revealed. You think your enlightenment reaches to the outer limits of the cosmos? But they do not, these are from men’s thoughts, and our human thoughts are not the same as God’s thoughts.

Do Catholics believe Jesus resurrected from the dead and appeared in his crucified physical body and that the blessed Virgin Mary is assumed into heaven body and soul, and distinctly God had taken Enoch and Elijah before their physical death. Show me one Catholic that does not believe this? God buried Moses physical body. No body knows where God buried Moses?

Here is a biblical Catholic teaching to answer your physical cosmos and spiritual scientific enlightened questions.

We believe that all things visible came from the invisible. Apply this Catholic biblical Truth to answer your questions, and may God open your mind to His revealed Word.

Peace be with you

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Then what was the need that the stone be rolled away from the sepulchre if he could simply have walked through it?

And he ate fish infront of his disciples and showed them his physical wounds to prove that he was the same person who had the very same physical body.

Peace.

For once on these boards Iam speechless;

Dialogues a Muslim believes in a physical Jesus after his “presumed (faked) crucifixion”.

Servant 19 believes only in a Spiritual non-physical resurrection of Jesus.

Christians believe Jesus recurrected from the dead in his crucified fully human body, fully divine

Now which Jesus is the true Jesus preannounced by the prophets?

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

This still doesn’t tell me where else does a physical body reside if it is not in the cosmos, unless there are multiple universes?

Sorry, Eddie, if Catholicism believes in a rational, scientific approach to its theology it must have something to help me understand.

I’m enrolled into RCIA after Easter, and if this is what is going to happen I’ll lose my mind and sense of humanity.

Maybe Father George Lemaitre can help you deal with your cosmos questions. Father George a Catholic priest scientist who invented the big bang theory, Fr. George debated the great Einstein on his big bang theory and Fr. George won the debate.

FYI, the world’s greatest scientific minds that were produced many of them were Catholics. So the Cathoilc Church is not a new comer when it comes to science.

There is a DVD out regarding Father George’s big bang theory that addresses your questions from a religious view supported by science. I am two states away from my personal library so I cannot give you the name of the DVD, maybe someone here knows?

The Church is careful not to mix theory with facts and science with faith. But she does teach that scientific fact not theories, do not contradict with the Catholic faith. In short the Catholic Faith never uses scientific approaches to our faith. Our Catholic faith is based on divine revelations from God himself, never science.

That said, science (proved fact and truth) does not conflict with the Catholic Faith.

Maybe google Father George Lemaitre big bang theory. I hope you are able to look into these and see the Catholic faith from a scientific perspective that does not contradict instead of looking at divine revelations and Truth from a scientific view, which the Church never does.

Peace be with you

 

[daler]

None of the 4 rightly guided Khalifas imprisoned tortured or executed Imams. So try to make a distinction between those who are regarded by the majority of Muslims as Khulafaa-Raashideen and those who are Caliphs in name only.

As for the Bab, whatever his claims, I would disagree with those who imprisoned and executed him, as per the following verse which applies to claimants to prophethood:

[40:28] And a believing man from among the people of Pharaoh, who concealed his faith, said, “Will you slay a man because he says, ‘My Lord is Allah,’ while he has brought you clear proofs from your Lord? And if he be a liar, on him will be the sin of his lie; but if he is truthful, then some of that which he threatens you with will surely befall you. Certainly Allah guides not one who is a transgressor, and a liar.

There are about 30 verses in the Qur’an which show that Jesus a.s. is dead, among them being 3:55, 3:144, and 5:117.

The verse is clear that he was not killed, so 3:169 does not apply to him in any case.

You misunderstand. Muhammad s.a. himself did not exist before Adam, but he was decreed already.

Peace.

Dialogues,
. I want to thank you for your thoughtful replies and frank discussion. The spirit in which people present their different understandings, without intending to cause offense, nor taking offense, is what is most important in my humble opinion.

. Thank you for pointing out the matter of the Rightly Guided Caliphs. My memory of the study of the early history of Islam is affected by a number of years since doing so, but let me say that I am very much fascinated by what I have learned.

. Growing up in the west, most of us had little experience wherewith to appreciate the incredible history and contributions of Islam and the cultures and sciences it spawned. That being said, I first picked up a Quran in the 70s, and shortly concluded that it reminded me very much of the Old Testament. I had already accepted the validity of the Prophethood of Muhammad prior to becoming a Baha’i in 1980. I am deeply moved by the verses contained in the Holy Quran and recognize them to be a Revelation from God, without question.

. Briefly, if I may revisit the matter of the crucifixion of Jesus (though not intending to dwell on it), let me clarify, if I may, that I believe His true identity is not limited to a physical, mortal body. Whatever understanding and interpretation is commonly held, whether by Christians or Muslims concerning it, my own sense of it is that Yes, He was physically crucified, but that as He is infinitely beyond the mortal identity, that true Identity is what is being referred to in the Quranic verse, although this challenges those who hold to the literal.

. And that No, His physical body was not resurrected, as indicated in the Biblical verse: “He entered the room, not using the door…” His Presence, however, was recognized to such an extent that some of His followers “knew” that He was yet with them, and that “He” was not killed when His body was. The stories written regarding it were affected by the mindset and understanding of the people of the times, and what was recorded took on a literal sense.

. I come from a Sioux Indian Reservation where there is a strong belief that the spirits (the true reality of our friends and relatives) live on, and that the physical body is but a shirt, so to speak, which is woven in life and unwoven in death. Hence, it is a garment worn in this stage of our eternal existence. That the garment of Jesus’ body was crucified does not necessitate that “He” was crucified, nor was “He” killed, though it appeared to them as such.

. Thank you again for your sincere and genuine dialogue on matters upon which many tend to disagree, whether from inherited beliefs or independently arrived at.
.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

If we are to base Jesus not being physically resurrected on that one verse at the end of the gospel of John I dare say we are doing a disservice to the text. Jesus invites Thomas to touch him, now the text doesn’t say that he was touched but would Thomas have just gone through Jesus and then Jesus would have laughed at Thomas’ foolishness?

Why cannot the bahai recognize that in Judaism and in early Christianity Resurrection was not a spiritual ascension into heaven. The phrase simply isn’t used that way in the time, Anastasis in the Greek I believe. I have also brought up to the bahai the Jesus who eats fish at the end of Luke’s Gospel and explicitly tells us that a spirit cannot eat in order to prove to the apostles he is no ghost or phantasm.

Here is what the early church has to say to the bahai.

For I know that after His resurrection also He was still possessed of flesh, and I believe that He is so now. When, for instance, He came to those who were with Peter, He said to them, Lay hold, handle Me, and see that I am not an incorporeal spirit. And immediately they touched Him, and believed, being convinced both by His flesh and spirit. For this cause also they despised death, and were found its conquerors. And after his resurrection He ate and drank with them, as being possessed of flesh, although spiritually He was united to the Father.

Ignatius of Antioch to the Smyrneans

To say anything else is to be a Gnostic.

 

[Dialogues]

You claim that Muhammad is divine then? if he had the power over angels to prevent them from punishing. That is not even biblcal, and angels are messengers of God not of men. Your view of Muhammad and angels has blasphemy attached to it.

Islam strongly opposes the idea that anyone other than the One God Himself be considered divine. Angels are not made superior to the prophets. They are made to serve the cause of prophets. The angel was sent by God to ask the Prophet Muhammad s.a. that very question. So there is no blasphemy involved in it.

So, you can’t find any where in the gospels where it states that all power and authority in heaven and earth was given to Jesus? What? your Islamic apologetics never taught this to you? or did your teachers purposely skipped over these documented gospels, that prove Jesus divine authority of Angels and demons?

Prophets are given such authority. The matter nevertheless still remains in the realm of belief that Jesus could do such a thing.

I don’t make this claim, the bible proclaims that Jesus could by Just one word from his lips, could bring Legion’s’s of angels to his aid. But that is not why Jesus came.

He was never in the position to practically demonstrate it, so it remains just a claim.

Tell you what, allow me to interpret the bible from a 2000 year old Catholic faith. And I will allow you to interpret your Quran?

Do you dispute the Jewish understanding of the OT?

In conclusion; Your denied Elijah never appeared. You were historically and biblically proven wrong.

In Matthew 27:9, Jesus categorically states it was a vision. Was Jesus wrong too?

Secondly; The Quran does not teach the divine teaching to Love your enemy the way Jesus practiced it, and taught it.

He taught it indeed, but did he really practice it? In the case of the Prophet Muhammad s.a., he even forgave the Jewish woman who tried to poison him, killing a companion of his in the process. She was pardoned by the Holy Prophet s.a. You were suggesting that the Prophet pbuh only showed mercy to Arabs.

You have only shown Muhammad being merciful to his enemies, when he killed his enemies and decieved his enemies inorder to kill them.

Moses is said to have killed 3000 Israelites. Elijah killed 400 prophets [of Baal]. Abraham went to fight in order to free Lot. Yet you still believe they were prophets. And this is the second time you allege deception on the part of the Prophet pbuh, but do not give proof.

But you say Muhammad perfected the love of enemy teaching over Jesus, because Muhammad has the power to dictated to angels when to strike and when not to strike enemies of Muhammad.

There are different types and degrees of love. One cannot love God and his prophets in the same way as the enemies of God and friends of satan. Love for the enemies manifests itself in praying for their forgiveness and guidance, inviting them to faith and righteousness, and warning them against wrongdoing. And even if they don’t respond to this call, one should not treat them with injustice. Hence the Qur’an teaches:

*[5:8] O ye who believe! be steadfast in the cause of Allah, bearing witness in equity; and let not a people’s enmity incite you to act otherwise than with justice. Be always just, that is nearer to righteousness. And fear Allah. Surely, Allah is aware of what you do. *

This is a practical manifestation of love for all people.

I am following you, but any reasonable mind can see Muhammad’s teaching or the Quran’s teaching of Love your enemy never measures up the divine teaching of Jesus to love your enemies.

The Qur’an states about the effect of the teachings of Jesus pbuh on those who followed him:

*[57.27] We placed compassion and mercy in the hearts of those who followed him. *

So I appreciate the teachings of Jesus pbuh.

There is no comparison because Islam loves it’s enemies from carnal understanding, that leads to blood shed.

Praying for the guidance of enemies is a carnal understanding? The Prophet pbuh is even recorded to have prayed for the right guidance of Abu Jahl, his arch-enemy chief in Mecca, the Pharaoh of the time. As for bloodshed, the blame for that lies on the polytheists who opposed and murdered Muslims in the first place. Do you deny Muslims the right of self-defence and protection of innocent?

Jesus love of enemy, is sacrifice oneself for the Love of enemy.

He was earnestly praying for the cup of death to be removed from him, and never made a willing sacrifice.

There are too many historical events that prove Jesus teachings are realized within Catholicism and her martyrs and Saints.

I have never denied the sacrifices of Jesus’s followers, who are described in the Qur’an as ‘birds’. i.e. creatures that freed themselves from the pull of materialism and soared up to heaven in a spiritual sense. And Muslims have had their martyrs too. When Abraham pbuh went to free Lot pbuh, some of those with him might have become martyrs, and this would have been regarded as a virtue.

Peace.

 

[Dialogues]

Please, give a reference.

Okay, let’s take it step by step. As blood does not rush out of corpses, the verse presented a problem to at least one Church Father, Origen. In his exegesis of John 19:34, he admitted that blood coagulates after death, but the flow of blood in this case constituted a miracle and thus needed no explanation. (Contra Celsus, by Origen, translated by H. Chadwick, Cambridge U).

A miracle!!! No, it was a sign of life.

Who said anything about “gushing”?

*John 19:34 MSG The Message One of the soldiers stabbed him in the side with his spear. Blood and water gushed out.

John 19:34 NIV: New International Version: Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus’ side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water.*

The word sudden also indicates a pumping heart. Other translations state ‘immediately’, ‘forthwith’, ‘at once’, ‘right away’, all suggesting a pumping heart.

The author of the gospel chose the Greek verb ‘ηΰσσω’ (nussow) meaning: to prick, stab or pierce [Friberg, Miller. Analytical Lexicon of the Greek New Testament] when describing the action of the soldier; implying a small cut or prick, the intention being to ensure that Jesus was in fact dead, since the prick would have made Jesus flinch. Even a prick did not cause any involuntary movement, as he had fainted.

Some interpreters have come up with fascinating medical conditions and theories of why ‘blood and water’ came out of Jesus including discussions of a fluid build up in the lungs or around the heart. Yet, it should be remembered that the spear was a small prick and not a deep thrust into the side.

Researcher and writer Holger Kersten, author of several books includingThe Jesus Conspiracy: The Turin Shroud and the Truth about the Resurrection writes:

‘It appears that the expression ‘blood and water’ is a traditional idiom from the ornate Arabian language, intended to emphasise a certain happening. Today we can say someone ‘sweats blood’ – the German equivalent is ‘to sweat blood and water’, ‘Blut und Wasser schwitzen’ – if he works hard or is very anxious, without meaning that blood actually comes from the pores. The same expression, applied when observing a wound, could simply mean that a lot of blood is visible. The eyewitness was doubtless surprised to see so much blood pouring out from a supposedly dead body through a minor scratch wound, and aptly expressed his surprise.’[Kersten, Holger, The Jesus Conspiracy: The Turin Shroud & The Truth About The Resurrection, (1995), p.251]

Regarding pleurisy, here is one reference:

*"If he was dead and his heart had stopped beating, such active bleeding as causing the blood to rush out or gush out would be impossible. At most coagulated blood and plasma could have passively seeped out. But that is not the picture which the New Testament presents, it says that blood and water rushed out. As far as the mention of water is concerned it should not be surprising for Jesus to have developed pleurisy during the extremely exacting and punishing hours of trial that he spent upon the cross.

Also, the stress of the Crucifixion could have resulted in exudates from the pleura to collect likes bags of water, which is medically termed as wet pleurisy. This condition, which is otherwise dangerous and painful, seems to have turned into an advantage for Jesus because when his side was pierced the swollen pleura could easily have played the role of a cushion protecting the chest organs from being directly penetrated by the spear. Water mixed with blood rushed out because of an active heart."* [Christianity: A Journey from Facts to Fiction, By Mirza Tahir Ahmad, p. 77,78]

Oh, yeah, and then was able to, 40 or so hours later, roll a large stone out of the way (typically so large that it would take 4 or so healthy, strong men to move it) and then convince everyone that he was completely healthy?

Jesus neither rolled the stone in place himself, nor did he roll it away himself. Why do you presume he did so himself?

Peace.

 

[MartinJordan]

Islam strongly opposes the idea that anyone other than the One God Himself be considered divine. Angels are not made superior to the prophets. They are made to serve the cause of prophets. The angel was sent by God to ask the Prophet Muhammad s.a. that very question. So there is no blasphemy involved in it.

Prophets are given such authority. The matter nevertheless still remains in the realm of belief that Jesus could do such a thing.

He was never in the position to practically demonstrate it, so it remains just a claim.

Do you dispute the Jewish understanding of the OT?

In Matthew 27:9, Jesus categorically states it was a vision. Was Jesus wrong too?

He taught it indeed, but did he really practice it? In the case of the Prophet Muhammad s.a., he even forgave the Jewish woman who tried to poison him, killing a companion of his in the process. She was pardoned by the Holy Prophet s.a. You were suggesting that the Prophet pbuh only showed mercy to Arabs.

Moses is said to have killed 3000 Israelites. Elijah killed 400 prophets [of Baal]. Abraham went to fight in order to free Lot. Yet you still believe they were prophets. And this is the second time you allege deception on the part of the Prophet pbuh, but do not give proof.

There are different types and degrees of love. One cannot love God and his prophets in the same way as the enemies of God and friends of satan. Love for the enemies manifests itself in praying for their forgiveness and guidance, inviting them to faith and righteousness, and warning them against wrongdoing. And even if they don’t respond to this call, one should not treat them with injustice. Hence the Qur’an teaches:

[5:8] O ye who believe! be steadfast in the cause of Allah, bearing witness in equity; and let not a people’s enmity incite you to act otherwise than with justice. Be always just, that is nearer to righteousness. And fear Allah. Surely, Allah is aware of what you do.

This is a practical manifestation of love for all people.

The Qur’an states about the effect of the teachings of Jesus pbuh on those who followed him:

*[57.27] We placed compassion and mercy in the hearts of those who followed him. *

So I appreciate the teachings of Jesus pbuh.

Praying for the guidance of enemies is a carnal understanding? The Prophet pbuh is even recorded to have prayed for the right guidance of Abu Jahl, his arch-enemy chief in Mecca, the Pharaoh of the time. As for bloodshed, the blame for that lies on the polytheists who opposed and murdered Muslims in the first place. Do you deny Muslims the right of self-defence and protection of innocent?

He was earnestly praying for the cup of death to be removed from him, and never made a willing sacrifice.

I have never denied the sacrifices of Jesus’s followers, who are described in the Qur’an as ‘birds’. i.e. creatures that freed themselves from the pull of materialism and soared up to heaven in a spiritual sense. And Muslims have had their martyrs too. When Abraham pbuh went to free Lot pbuh, some of those with him might have become martyrs, and this would have been regarded as a virtue.

Peace.

You REALLY don’t know what you are getting yourself into. So many points you raise about Jesus are incomplete and baseless. First and foremost you have blatantly misconstrued the Bible. Shameful!

MJ

 

[Dialogues]

Dialogues,
. I want to thank you for your thoughtful replies and frank discussion. The spirit in which people present their different understandings, without intending to cause offense, nor taking offense, is what is most important in my humble opinion.

It is my pleasure.

. Thank you for pointing out the matter of the Rightly Guided Caliphs. My memory of the study of the early history of Islam is affected by a number of years since doing so, but let me say that I am very much fascinated by what I have learned.

I had already accepted the validity of the Prophethood of Muhammad prior to becoming a Baha’i in 1980. I am deeply moved by the verses contained in the Holy Quran and recognize them to be a Revelation from God, without question.

Good.

. And that No, His physical body was not resurrected, as indicated in the Biblical verse: “He entered the room, not using the door…”

The verses state:

John 20:19 When therefore it was evening, on that day, the first day of the week, and when the doors were locked where the disciples were assembled, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the middle, and said to them, “Peace be to you.”

26 After eight days again his disciples were inside, and Thomas was with them. Jesus came, the doors being locked, and stood in the middle, and said, “Peace be to you.” 27 Then he said to Thomas, “Reach here your finger, and see my hands. Reach here your hand, and put it into my side. Don’t be unbelieving, but believing.”

The passage tells us that the external doors of the house were locked for fear of the Jews. There was no need to lock the internal doors, which may not have had locks anyway. Jesus came and stood amidst them from another room in the same house. The verses do not say he walked through anything.

His Presence, however, was recognized to such an extent that some of His followers “knew” that He was yet with them, and that “He” was not killed when His body was. The stories written regarding it were affected by the mindset and understanding of the people of the times, and what was recorded took on a literal sense.

You seem to be reading into the passage what is not stated. Consider the following verses from Luke 24:

36 As they said these things, Jesus himself stood among them, and said to them, “Peace be to you.” 37 But they were terrified and filled with fear, and supposed that they had seen a spirit. 38 He said to them, “Why are you troubled? Why do doubts arise in your hearts? 39 See my hands and my feet, that it is truly me. Touch me and see, for a spirit doesn’t have flesh and bones, as you see that I have.” 40 When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his feet. 41 While they still didn’t believe for joy, and wondered, he said to them, “Do you have anything here to eat?”42 They gave him a piece of a broiled fish and some honeycomb. 43 He took them, and ate in front of them.

Food is a requirement of the material body. He proves beyond doubt that he is the same person with the same physical body.

. Thank you again for your sincere and genuine dialogue on matters upon which many tend to disagree, whether from inherited beliefs or independently arrived at.

My pleasure, and thanks to you too.

Peace.

 

[FathersKnowBest]

Okay, let’s take it step by step. As blood does not rush out of corpses,

Ever been deer hunting, Dialogues?
Can you honestly say that blood doesn’t flow out of a dead animal?

*John 19:34 MSG The Message One of the soldiers stabbed him in the side with his spear. Blood and water gushed out.

John 19:34 NIV: New International Version: Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus’ side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water.*

The word sudden also indicates a pumping heart. [/qluote]
Your grasping at straws indicates the weakness of your argument.
I never heard of the MSG translation, and it doesn’t appear very reliable.
The NIV translation doesn’t give the color you wish it to.

Other translations state ‘immediately’, ‘forthwith’, ‘at once’, ‘right away’, all suggesting a pumping heart.

Funny, I never associated those words with a pumping heart.
Again, I doubt that the soldiers, faced with the threat of themselves being crucified if His heart was still pumping, would have thought so either.

You’re sounding desperate, Dialogues.

The author of the gospel chose the Greek verb ‘ηΰσσω’ (nussow) meaning: to prick, stab or pierce [Friberg, Miller. Analytical Lexicon of the Greek New Testament] when describing the action of the soldier; implying a small cut or prick, the intention being to ensure that Jesus was in fact dead, since the prick would have made Jesus flinch. Even a prick did not cause any involuntary movement, as he had fainted.

Now you’re just contradicting your own argument with this ridiculous one.
Have you ever seen a “small cut or prick” lead to a gushing wound from a pumping heart?

I don’t have time to address your other conspiracy theories, never having been a fan of such fantasy.

 

[FathersKnowBest]

I have no idea what this means…

It means you have to reference posts not by page number but by posting number to have a common reference frame.

Well, obviously if it was a physical body, it ascended to a physical place…

Unless He was Divine, for example.
Just using the word “obviously” doesn’t make something true that is not necessarity so.

Who ever said a spiritual entity is a “ghost”?

Sorry, but since they are synonymous, I would have thought that one would imply the other.

 

[eddie_too]

i see no good reason to believe what mohammed, who lived about 400 years after the events being discussed, or bahaullah, who lived more than 1800 years after the event, say about Jesus Christ if it contradicts the eyewitnesses of the event.

it is not that unusual to have people reject the Resurrection because to believe in it would demand allegiance to the One who rose Himself from the grave.

no one in their right mind would try to place another man at the spirtual level as that of a man who raised Himself from the dead.

that is why they so vigorously want to shoot holes in the testimony of those who were eyewitnesses to the events being discussed.

like i said in the first line, i can see or identify NO good reasons to believe the testimony of those who lived hundreds of years after the event over the testimonies of those who LIVED the events.

faith in Jesus is a gift from God. let us pray that the unbelieving receive and accept this precious life-giving faith.

 

[Servant19]

Eddie, I’d like you to know that were Jesus to have raised Himself from the dead or not is of no consequence whatsoever to the Baha’is. Not on iota of concern here…Bahaullah Himself raised others from the dead…nothing unusual for a Divine Being

I love Jesus and would give up my life for Him, resurrected or not…

What matters is your understanding of the term “Day of Resurrection”

This, for Baha’is, is critical…

God bless you, and I honour your courage to say sometimes, you just don’t know, which is a very godly and humble response when I posed the previous set if questions to you on this thread

.