Prophets after Jesus

[IgnatianPhilo]

You don’t have to follow Baha’u’llah dear friend, it doesn’t deny the truth of His reality either way

Baha’u’llah said His Revelation will be further fulfilled by another Revelation in a thousand years or so

The Bible does clearly indicate there will be further Prophets after Jesus…as also indicated by NextElements comments…

.

Yet in another thread you maintained that it was necessary you believe Ali Hussain in order to be saved. Does anyone at this point take bahai seriously?

 

[openmind77]

Hi Openmind,
openmind77;11748300:

God sends different messengers to different regions. The messages are slightly different so as to be appropriate to the culture and state of development (ie education, living conditions etc) of the locals. So it does not always mean that a later messenger supercedes the previous one. Muhammad no doubt was a Prophet who brought a new message to the Arabs, but his message does not supercede the teachings of Jesus, just as Jesus’s teachings do not supercede the teachings of the Buddha (they do complement them).

As was mentioned earlier, Muhammad was just a Prophet while Jesus was a Son of God (or in Hindu terms, an Avatar), so was the Buddha (although he never made such a claim).

Messengers like Jesus or the Buddha come only every 1000 or 2000 years, while someone like Muhammad (or Bahauallah) may appear every few hundred years.

Now that the whole world is globalized, I believe that the next messenger will be One sent for All people (not just for a specific region)

I agree with much of your post. Most of your message could have been posted by a Muslim, except that a Muslim would believe that the Qur’an superceds the former scriptures, and that it is for all times to come and for all people.

There are some Muslims who believe Krishna a.s. was also a prophet of God, as were Buddha and Zoroaster. Jesus is believed to be a prophet, and some Muslims believe that the second coming of Jesus was to be fulfilled in the person of another prophet, just as the prophecied second coming of Elijah was fulfilled in John the Baptist.

Peace.

As I explained in my post above, Jesus is a Son of God while Muhammad was a Prophet. That is why Muhammad’s teachings do not supercede the teachings of Jesus. In fact Muhammad’s teachings may be a step backwards because they leave out the Trinitarian nature of God.

 

[Matthew_Light]

I don’t know much about Baha’i but from what I have read from other Baha’i people on these forums, the ones I have encountered are very kind and polite contrary to what others say to them which is very admirable, but what I don’t understand is how they can reconcile so many contradictions (no offense intended) such as Islam, Jusdaism and Christianity all being true.

Well, Christianity doesn’t claim that Judaism isn’t true. Jesus Himself claimed to come and fulfill the prophecies of the Jewish faith. So a Catholic wouldn’t see any problem reconciling Judaism and Catholicism, even though Jews would say that Jesus doesn’t fulfill the prophecies for the Messiah literally, that Jesus abrogated the Jewish scriptures contrary to Moses such as the laws of divorce and the Sabbath, that the Christian revelation added books to the Bible even though Moses said:

“You shall not add to the word that I speak to you, neither shall you take away from it: keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.”

There is also a difference in the understanding of the nature of God - the Jews see God as Single, the Christians see God as a Trinity.

So even though Christians, Muslims and Baha’is see Christ as fulfilling the Jewish promises of the Messiah, Jews believe Jesus was NOT the Messiah.

Jews view Jesus as “contradicting” their Faith. At a very literalistic reading, this is true. Elijah was supposed to come first, before the Christ. Jesus explained that John the Baptist was in reality the return of Elijah, but when asked if he was Elijah, John himself said “No”, “I am a voice crying out in the wilderness prepare ye the way of the Lord”. So was Jesus lying? No, of course not. John appeared in the station and power of Elijah but not the literal same person. And thus Christ explained how “return” works.

So the same way that Jesus can be reconciled with the teachings of Moses and the Israelite prophets (and indeed fulfilled many prophecies in Daniel, Isaiah and other books of the Tanakh), Muhammad can be reconciled with the teachings of Jesus, and Baha’u’llah with the old and new Testaments and the Qur’an as well.

A classic example of this would be the absolute truth in the real presense of the Holy Eucharist, I doubt Baha’i believes in that, therefore in the embracement of all religions, Baha’i loses the truth and embraces relativism, which cannot by definition be true.

I personally don’t have any problem accepting the real presence.

If we look carefully with the eye of science and the eye of faith, we can know that absolutely everything in this universe is an emanation of God’s Will and creative love. That certainly includes the Eucharist.

There is no reason to doubt that the Holy Spirit can infuse ordinary matter with spiritual potency through God’s grace and mercy.

 

[Matthew_Light]

Muhammad denies the crucifixion of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Most Muslims deny the crucifixion, based on a very ambiguous passage in the Quran.

Some however do not.

The passage is not straightforward at all:

“That they [the Jews] said (in boast), “We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah”;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;”

One interpretation of this is that Jesus’ body was killed, and that the Jews thought they had killed Him, but of course the Spirit of God cannot be killed in reality.

Some Muslims follow that interpretation.

 

[jakasaki]

Most Muslims deny the crucifixion, based on a very ambiguous passage in the Quran.

Some however do not.

Who…??? And please cite Islamic sources for this claim

Thanks!

 

[Dialogues]

1 John 5:20 - And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, [even] in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

Are you suggesting this is a saying attributed to Jesus?

John 8:58 - Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

God knows the future; He is All-Knowing, so the being and status of every prophet was determined well before the creation of the universe.

Matthew 28:18 - And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

All prophets are given power, but this does not make them divine.

In any case, attempts are made to derive divinity from such passages only because there is no statement of Jesus himself proclaiming ‘I am God, worship me’.

Peace.

 

[openmind77]

Are you suggesting this is a saying attributed to Jesus?

God knows the future; He is All-Knowing, so the being and status of every prophet was determined well before the creation of the universe.

All prophets are given power, but this does not make them divine. In any case, attempts are made to derive divinity from such passages only because there is no actual claim to being God by Jesus himself.

Peace.

Jesus says so himself that he is a Son of God in John 10:36:

John 10:36: Say you of him, whom the Father has sanctified, and sent into the world, You blaspheme; because I said, I am the Son of God?

 

[Servant19]

Yet in another thread you maintained that it was necessary you believe Ali Hussain in order to be saved. Does anyone at this point take bahai seriously?

Your constant attacks on the Baha’i Faith, thankfully, do not remove the ability of the Baha’is to stay within the powers of the Holy Spirit.

Some logic.

It is necessary to drink water daily. It is necessary to eat daily.
You don’t HAVE to, you can choose death, dehydration and starvation.

So it is with the vivifying waters of Baha’u’llahs All-Conquering Spirit, and the Bread of Life that He offers.

Everyone has a choice. A necessity will never remove your free will.

I hope you take us a minuscule amount more seriously someday…

.

 

[Dialogues]

Hi,

Jesus says so himself that he is a Son of God in John 10:36:

If you read the verses preceding [John 10:36], you will see that when Jesus is accused of blasphemy, he refutes it by saying that the expression ‘Gods’ has been used in scripture for those who were not actually Gods, but were so called only because they received the word of God.

Hence he proved to them that the charge of blasphemy was shown to be false from their own scripture, and he clearly said to them that they cannot refute/break his argument because it was from their scripture.

The fact is that ‘Son of God’ is a common Biblical metaphor meaning a beloved of God. It is used for Ephraim, Israel, David etc.

Peace.

 

[marywarfield]

Your constant attacks on the Baha’i Faith, thankfully, do not remove the ability of the Baha’is to stay within the powers of the Holy Spirit.

Some logic.

It is necessary to drink water daily. It is necessary to eat daily.
You don’t HAVE to, you can choose death, dehydration and starvation.

So it is with the vivifying waters of Baha’u’llahs All-Conquering Spirit, and the Bread of Life that He offers.

Everyone has a choice. A necessity will never remove your free will.

I hope you take us a minuscule amount more seriously someday…

.

I fail to see that you have said anything that can’t
also be applied to Catholicism. So unless you have
something to offer that didn’t already exist within the
Church itself already…

 

[Servant19]

I fail to see that you have said anything that can’t
also be applied to Catholicism. So unless you have
something to offer that didn’t already exist within the
Church itself already…

The Bahai Faith does not deny the spiritual Truths of Catholicism, it fulfils those Truths and applies them to bring about the unification of mankind.

The Bahai Community is the example of the future global community

.


.

 

[Matthew_Light]

The Bahai Community is the example of the future global community.

I would say:

an example

Certainly the Catholic Community is another example. There are Catholics of every race and cultural background and a very broad diversity of understandings about the nature of God and about other faiths such as Islam and the Baha’i Faith.

I believe that God does not play exclusive favorites with any religious body, and His Holy Spirit is found within the walls of all faiths.

 

[josh987654321]

.

The non-divine Jesus stumbled into Jerusalem and somehow got himself killed?
Mark 14:60-65:

Jesus Is Questioned by the Council

60 The high priest stood up in the council and asked Jesus, “Why don’t you say something in your own defense? Don’t you hear the charges they are making against you?” 61 But Jesus kept quiet and did not say a word. The high priest asked him another question, “Are you the Messiah, the Son of the glorious God?”

62 “Yes, I am!” Jesus answered. “Soon you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right side of God All-Powerful, and coming with the clouds of heaven.”

63 At once the high priest ripped his robe apart and shouted, “Why do we need more witnesses? 64 You heard him claim to be God! What is your decision?” They all agreed that he should be put to death.

65 Some of the people started spitting on Jesus. They blindfolded him, hit him with their fists, and said, “Tell us who hit you!” Then the guards took charge of Jesus and beat him.

However in saying this you will find that all throughout the Gospels where Jesus’ divinity is challenged, he avoids the questions as much as possible, hence why he refers to himself as “the Son of Man.” because he wanted people to see it, to recognise who he was, because if Jesus is not God, than by what authority could he tell you that he is? this is why when they said “How long are you going to keep us guessing? If you are the Messiah, tell us plainly!” Jesus replied “I have told you, and you refused to believe me. The things I do by my Father’s authority show who I am.”

Anyway, I could quote script and verse on Jesus’ divinity until I am blue in the face, but I believe it really comes down to this -

Luke 9:18-21, Mark 8:27-30, Matthew 16:13-20
Matthew 16:13-20:

Who Is Jesus?

13 When Jesus and his disciples were near the town of Caesarea Philippi, he asked them, “What do people say about the Son of Man?”

14 The disciples answered, “Some people say you are John the Baptist or maybe Elijah or Jeremiah or some other prophet.”

15 Then Jesus asked them, “But who do you say I am?”

16 Simon Peter spoke up, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”

17 Jesus told him:

Simon, son of Jonah, you are blessed! You didn’t discover this on your own. It was shown to you by my Father in heaven. 18 So I will call you Peter, which means “a rock.” On this rock I will build my church, and death itself will not have any power over it. 19 I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven, and God in heaven will allow whatever you allow on earth. But he will not allow anything that you don’t allow.

20 Jesus told his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Messiah.

This is the same question he asks mankind today, *“Who do you say that I am?” *Who is he for every man or woman, what’s important to Jesus is our personal response to these great questions: Who Am I for you? What do I mean to you?

As when Jesus would be taken before Pilate and he would say: “Are you the King of the Jews?”, Jesus replied: *“Does that question come from you or are you repeating what others told you about Me?” *(John 18:33-34) In the same way, when we tell Him: “You are the Lord, You are God; You are the Son of God”, Jesus asks us: Do you say this of your own accord, or is it because you have heard it?

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[josh987654321]

The Bahai Faith does not deny the spiritual Truths of Catholicism, it fulfils those Truths and applies them to bring about the unification of mankind.

The Bahai Community is the example of the future global community

.


.

If I reject the real presense in the Holy Eucharist can I still become a Baha’i? If I reject Jesus’ divinity and call him a prophet or great moral teacher, can I still become a Baha’i? at this point, how can you say a Baha’i is Catholic or accepts Catholicism as true? Catholicism say’s that the rejection of such things is false, so to then say Catholicism is true, is to say that Baha’i is false wouldn’t you agree?

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Most Muslims deny the crucifixion, based on a very ambiguous passage in the Quran.

Some however do not.

The passage is not straightforward at all:

“That they [the Jews] said (in boast), “We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah”;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;”

One interpretation of this is that Jesus’ body was killed, and that the Jews thought they had killed Him, but of course the Spirit of God cannot be killed in reality.

Some Muslims follow that interpretation.

What a Gnostic way of reading it. Why can’t we read any other verse in the quran which mentions killing, say the death of Abel by Cain, as not being a real murder or killing but only meaning Cain killed Abel Spiritually?

It seems to me in Islam such spiritual interpretations of the text would have to be demonstrated as originating from the period wherein the quran was written. What do the earliest commentators say? I would be willing to suppose they match the current widely held Islamic opinion, that it is shameful for a prophet of God to die in such a way, so God saved him.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Your constant attacks on the Baha’i Faith, thankfully, do not remove the ability of the Baha’is to stay within the powers of the Holy Spirit.

Some logic.

It is necessary to drink water daily. It is necessary to eat daily.
You don’t HAVE to, you can choose death, dehydration and starvation.

So it is with the vivifying waters of Baha’u’llahs All-Conquering Spirit, and the Bread of Life that He offers.

Everyone has a choice. A necessity will never remove your free will.

I hope you take us a minuscule amount more seriously someday…

.

I’ll attack it (or your particular interpretation of it) when I see it as utterly false. In one thread you said we don’t need Ali Hussain and in another you said we need Ali Hussain. Which is it? Do you contradict yourself on purpose or do you have an elaborate system of definitions applied to certain words to make it appear as if you are more in harmony with your opponents than you really are?

Are you in saying “You don’t need Ali Hussain” and then saying “You need Ali hussain.” Applying an elaborate definition to each of the words involved, knowing how it will be read by others and how they will understand it, while thinking you remain clear in conscience because you know what it means?

Anyway I’m done, no more diverting the thread, I’m just pointing out an inconsistency.

 

[Matthew_Light]

What a Gnostic way of reading it. Why can’t we read any other verse in the quran which mentions killing, say the death of Abel by Cain, as not being a real murder or killing but only meaning Cain killed Abel Spiritually?

Actual Jesus did talk about the spiritually dead, as in “let the dead bury their dead”. But I would not say Jesus was gnostic because he said that.

The bodily suffering and death of Jesus were completely real. But the spiritual reality of Christ cannot be put to death, as He is the Divine Lord of all creation. That seems like something a lot of Christians could agree with.

 

[josh987654321]

I would say:

an example

Certainly the Catholic Community is another example. There are Catholics of every race and cultural background and a very broad diversity of understandings about the nature of God and about other faiths such as Islam and the Baha’i Faith.

I believe that God does not play exclusive favorites with any religious body, and His Holy Spirit is found within the walls of all faiths.

I would like to quote a small extract out of the book “Jesus among other Gods” by Ravi Zacharias.

*But arn’t all religions the same?

People all around us chime in with the words I have heard a thousand times growing up in India; “We all come through different routes and end up in the same place”; In other words, we all follow different faiths, but they all lead us to the same God. American culture is rapdily adopting this stance toward non-Christian religions. Our society is becoming more and more “pluralistic” accepting all religions not only as alternative options but as equally correct views of life. Anything you believe sincerely enough, religious pluralists say, will get you to God - and to heaven. You might here it said like this:
“It doesn’t matter what you believe-just that you believe it strongly.”
“Every faith leads to God.”
“All religions teach the same things.”
When you hear a teacher or a friend or your favourite movie star making those claims, nodding your head in agreement seems polite. That’s pluralism in action. On the surface, pluralism makes everyone feel warmly accepted. But it doesn’t get us to the real facts of life.

If you tell a friend you are a dachshund, you will be laughed at or locked up. But if you say you worship that same wiener dog, pluralists tell us to celebrate your sincere belief and to accept it as true. Just as true as the well substantiated evidence for Christianity. In the first case, most people would probably say, “We can see with our own eyes you are not a dachshund.” the second case people increasingly say, “I support your belief. I respect respect your sincere worship of wiener dogs.”
Have you noticed how some people will applaud just about any spiritual idea up to and including the divinity of wiener dogs but bristle if you try to take a stand that any spiritual idea is absolutely true? that a certain behaviour is always wrong? Or that your Christian faith is a truth that should be accepted by everyone? Again, that’s pluralism in action.

You want the surgeon who operates on your brain to know the facts of physiology. You know to supply the correct answers on your history exam or you will fail. You can add 2+2 and get 4 in any universe. But isn’t religion different? Are the answers we can find really that sure?

We wouldn’t have sure answers accept for one thing. The beliefs of Christianity aren’t pulled from thin air. The strongest evidences for the Christian faith are the things Jesus said and did when He came to live on earth. Because of that, we can prove beyond any resonable doubt his existance. We can read his words with certainity of their accuracy. And our minds can examine the hard facts of history surrounding his ressurection. The sure answers of the Christian faith are rooted in tough to dispute facts.

It’s a catastrphic mistake to think that all religions are right and that it doesn’t matter whether their claims are actually true or not. I have spent my life studying the absolute truth of the Christian message, especially as it relates to other religious teachings. I can say with confidence several things. All religions are not the same. All religions do not point to God. All religions do not say that all religions are the same. At the heart of every religion is a stubborn commitment to a particular way of defining who God is or isn’t and a particular way of defining life’s purpose.

I say these things confidently because I can demonstrate my claims. People who say that all religions are the same not only show their ignorance of all religions, but they also hold a warped view of even the best known ones. Every religion at it’s core is exclusive - in other words, every religion requires people to follow what it say’s is true and right.*

What happens with pluralism is that suddenly “Everyone is right” it makes everyone feel all warm and fuzzy because none want to be wrong but I bet if you finnished your school maths exam and the teachers said “Everyone is correct” you would be calling bull ****. How can we all be correct when we all supplied different answers?

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[Matthew_Light]

If I reject the real presense in the Holy Eucharist can I still become a Baha’i? If I reject Jesus’ divinity and call him a prophet or great moral teacher, can I still become a Baha’i? at this point, how can you say a Baha’i is Catholic or accepts Catholicism as true? Catholicism say’s that the rejection of such things is false, so to then say Catholicism is true, is to say that Baha’i is false wouldn’t you agree?

Thank you for reading
Josh

Someone can become a Baha’i only when they believe that Baha’u’llah speaks from the station of the absolute truth and authority of God.

That implies believing that that same “I AM” spoke through Jesus of Nazareth. Any Baha’i who denies the authority and divine station of Jesus is not in fact a Baha’i. Baha’is emphatically reject the idea that Jesus was merely a human being, however wise or enlightened, who taught moral truths to humanity.

Jesus embodied in His Person the power, truth, authority and station of Almighty God. None of us, no matter how sanctified we will ever become, can ever touch or begin to understand the loftiness of Christ’s station and power. To us as human beings, Jesus Christ IS God.

 

[Matthew_Light]

How can we all be correct when we all supplied different answers?

Because God is the elephant, and we are the blind men holding trunk, leg and tail.