Proposal

  • Thread starter Thread starter Hunbleandlost16
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Xantippe said:
  1. Trapping a woman into a huge public proposal does seem like it reduces freedom, which is a very good reason not to do it. I also think that the ruinously expensive wedding may reduce freedom.
  2. The timing of the proposal is not usually the woman’s choice at all–remember these big public things are usually surprises, or at least supposed to be surprises–that’s the whole point. My husband tells me that I proposed to him, but that’s exceptional. (My recollection is that I asked, “So where is this going?” and “So how serious are you about me?” which he treated that a proposal from me.) The cultural norm is that the woman doesn’t choose the timing and it’s considered bad form to nag a boyfriend into proposing. (“Nag” in this context means ask once.)
For everybody’s enjoyment: Top 5 Marriage Proposal Fails.

youtube.com/watch?v=22ec8o7p2bI
  1. I agree it shouldn’t be a big surprise to either party that the relationship is serious and is headed toward marriage.
Click to expand...
  1. a public proposal isn’t in any way trapping if both have discerned with prayer that they are going to marry. It’s not just “headed toward marriage”.
  2. Timing point doesn’t say anything against or for a public proposal. “Cultural norms” don’t have to be followed. Cultural norms also have people sleeping together after a couple dates, moving in quickly, then maybe talking about marriage a few years in.
Some, if not all those “fails” were fake and staged. they made the rounds going viral long ago. If public proposals fail, I would bet that the couple had not been actively discerning before hand, and had not figured out their vocation together.
 
agapewolf said:
  1. a public proposal isn’t in any way trapping if both have discerned with prayer that they are going to marry. It’s not just “headed toward marriage”.
Eh, if they’ve already decided that they are getting married to each other and talked about it, what is the public proposal for?
  1. Timing point doesn’t say anything against or for a public proposal. “Cultural norms” don’t have to be followed. Cultural norms also have people sleeping together after a couple dates, moving in quickly, then maybe talking about marriage a few years in.
**The idea that the man proposes is a really, really old cultural norm, though. We’re not talking something invented 5 or even 50 years ago–the idea that the man or his representatives should make the proposal is as old as the Bible (and presumably even older than that). I’m not saying it’s required or morally necessary, but that that is a very powerful cultural tide to swim against. **

Some, if not all those “fails” were fake and staged. they made the rounds going viral long ago. If public proposals fail, I would bet that the couple had not been actively discerning before hand, and had not figured out their vocation together.
Click to expand...
Have you ever heard of the “No True Scotsman” fallacy?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

And honestly, I’m not concerned about the public proposals that fail–that is a good thing. What I’m concerned about is the public proposals that seem to succeed, but where the woman is embarrassed into agreeing into marriage against her better judgment just to avoid making a scene.

These public proposals are a new thing and I think they are a terrible, terrible idea. If it’s a yes, enjoy your bliss in private (hopefully with lots of smooching). If it’s a no, you can have a frank explanation as to why in private.
 
Xantippe said:
Have you ever heard of the “No True Scotsman” fallacy?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

And honestly, I’m not concerned about the public proposals that fail–that is a good thing. What I’m concerned about is the public proposals that seem to succeed, but where the woman is embarrassed into agreeing into marriage against her better judgment just to avoid making a scene.

These public proposals are a new thing and I think they are a terrible, terrible idea. If it’s a yes, enjoy your bliss in private (hopefully with lots of smooching). If it’s a no, you can have a frank explanation as to why in private.
Click to expand...
I wasn’t talking about the man proposing as a cultural norm that should be changed. (and in fact, its TOB/Song of songs. ). YOU were the one that brought cultural norm into play with timing, and that doesn’t have much to do with the argument.

Again, for the 3rd time, you are putting your own person opinion and preference, and using a HUGE stretch to back it up.

If a couple has properly discerned marriage, then a public or private proposal is fine. And to answer your point, there doesn’t need to be an official proposal at all. It’s a nice thing that has cultural history. It doesnt’ have any standing in their freedom to marry. The DECISION point should have been made slowly before hand, and then it becomes official on the wedding day and irrevocable on the wedding day.
 
agapewolf said:
I wasn’t talking about the man proposing as a cultural norm that should be changed. (and in fact, its TOB/Song of songs. ). YOU were the one that brought cultural norm into play with timing, and that doesn’t have much to do with the argument.

**Traditionally, the woman has very little to no control over the timing of a proposal. That’s just how it is to this day. Hence, it makes no sense about talking about the timing of the proposal being the choice of both members of the couple as you did. The person who asks (whatever their gender) chooses the time of the proposal.

Unless the public proposal is a staged “re-enactment,” in which case then the only moral question is whether the couple is annoying bystanders who would rather be enjoying their own romantic dinner (babysitter $12 an hour!!!) rather than being employed as unpaid extras.
**

The DECISION point should have been made slowly before hand, and then it becomes official on the wedding day and irrevocable on the wedding day.
Click to expand...
Ideally, yes, but that’s a lot to assume. We have no idea yet whether or not the OP’s intended is on board. That’s why he needs to ask. It’s not kosher to assume that people are going to agree to marry you without asking them first. In fact, it’s generally a good idea not to ask any important and sensitive question in front of a crowd when you are unsure of the answer.
 
As a rule, nobody likes requests where it’s clear that the asker is assuming a yes. “Can I have a bite of your dessert?” while sticking your fork in the other person’s cake is rude. Ditto, “Can I borrow your car?” while grabbing for the other person’s car keys.

When we ask for things (even when we expect the answer will be yes), we shouldn’t be too clearly treating the other person’s agreement as a mere formality to be gotten over.
 
Xantippe said:
As a rule, nobody likes requests where it’s clear that the asker is assuming a yes. “Can I have a bite of your dessert?” while sticking your fork in the other person’s cake is rude. Ditto, “Can I borrow your car?” while grabbing for the other person’s car keys.

When we ask for things (even when we expect the answer will be yes), we shouldn’t be too clearly treating the other person’s agreement as a mere formality to be gotten over.
Click to expand...
You are sooo missing the point, and you are using the very arguing technique you accused me of.

read it again–4th time now: IT IS NOT THE OTHER PERSON’S AGREEMENT.

This is NOT the time its do or die. When a proposal is done with some effort and creativity-- you think they are treating it as a mere formality to be gotten over?

nope.

Quit putting your personal preference as gospel.
 
Anglewannabe said:
OK, maybe I gave a bad example. I was not thinking of a 1 minute proposal. I was thinking about those proposal I saw on youtube, where the guy has all the waiters, perform a dance, hires a band, gets a violinist to play a love ballad and it is a whole 30 minutes before he actually shows himself and proposes
Click to expand...
If he can afford all that, he should buy out the dining room for the evening.
 
agapewolf said:
This is NOT the time its do or die. When a proposal is done with some effort and creativity-- you think they are treating it as a mere formality to be gotten over?
Click to expand...
Yes, because unless there has been a previous private proposal, the elaborate public proposal assumes that the woman couldn’t possibly say no.
 
Rent a hot air balloon and make all your friends stand in a school playing field with signs that say, “Marry Me!”
 
Xantippe said:
Yes, because unless there has been a previous private proposal, the elaborate public proposal assumes that the woman couldn’t possibly say no.
Click to expand...
Not true. There didn’t have to be an official “proposal” question asked. But if the relationship is discerned well, there’s a certainty in how that part of the scenario plays out.

You can keep hammering away and finding small things to argue against but the bottom line is it is your personal preference which is fine to have,

The only backing for the absolute that “this goes for everybody” is that she doesn’t have the freedom to say no. Which I’ve countered with discernment and proper formation making that a non-issue.

All other arguments you make are not part of the issue.
 
agapewolf said:
But if the relationship is discerned well, there’s a certainty in how that part of the scenario plays out.
Click to expand...
Ah, but who is to say that the relationship has been discerned well? That’s a very big “if.”

I once seriously dated a guy who asked me to marry him several dozen different times and each time I said no, because I knew he wasn’t the one for me but I hadn’t quite steeled myself to break up with him yet.

Women can and do say no to proposals.
 
Xantippe said:
Ah, but who is to say that the relationship has been discerned well? That’s a very big “if.”

I once seriously dated a guy who asked me to marry him several dozen different times and each time I said no, because I knew he wasn’t the one for me but I hadn’t quite steeled myself to break up with him yet.

Women can and do say no to proposals.
Click to expand...
Again, not the issue. I’m not talking about anyone in particular, as you well know. This was simply stating that your preference does not make absolute.

I would know several couples who discerned well. Took the foccus, did marriage prep videos,took the myerrs briggs and discussed their differences with a counselor, learned NFP, sought spiritual direction before a ring was bought.

I’m not determining for each and every couple to ever get engaged if they have discerned well or if they should or could have a public proposal. You are again, distracting from the issue.

Your personal preference does not make absolute.
 
agapewolf said:
I would know several couples who discerned well. Took the foccus, did marriage prep videos,took the myerrs briggs and discussed their differences with a counselor, learned NFP, sought spiritual direction before a ring was bought.
Click to expand...
Wow–that is unusual to go so far before having an official engagement. (Not the ring part, though–some couples never do the engagement ring thing. We didn’t–too poor.)

Dollars to donuts, the OP hasn’t done anything like that.
 
agapewolf said:
The only backing for the absolute that “this goes for everybody” is that she doesn’t have the freedom to say no. Which I’ve countered with discernment and proper formation making that a non-issue.

.
Click to expand...
That is not the only backing. There is also the fact that some things should be keep private and other people do NOT care to see it.

As for the discernment, it is NOT complete. Engaged couples are still discerning, just at a much more serious level and if a date has been set, the discernment now has a deadline
 
Anglewannabe said:
That is not the only backing. There is also the fact that some things should be keep private and other people do NOT care to see it.
Click to expand...
Yes–if the presence of many, many strangers is essential to the success of your wedding proposal, why not give them all wedding invitations?
 
Anglewannabe said:
That is not the only backing. There is also the fact that some things should be keep private and other people do NOT care to see it.
Click to expand...
Why does it bother you? I’m not trying to be a jerk here but I just can’t fathom why it would bother anyone.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top