Pros and Cons of Mormonism

[TOmNossor]

It is similar to what you post on the ‘Mormon Abortion’ thread re Kierkegaard: he was NOT Catholic, he was Danish Lutheran.

You throw so many things out in a flippant manner and expect the oohs and ahhs and “where do we sign up for the priesthood” cries from us.
No, Robert you misquoting me has nothing to do with me believing INCORRECTLY that Kierkegaard was a Catholic. He spoke of Vespers in Fear and Trembling which I linked to Catholicism. I was wrong! Do you wish to call me dishonest for this?
You extracting my quote out of context does however IMO require much more correction.

Rbt_Southwell:
The fact is: mormon pantheology is the PROBLEM.

It is NOT Christian. We don’t care a whit about ‘personal testimony’ or ‘burning in the bosoms’ here.

Many of us are exmormons and are very knowledgeable about the techniques of arguing vis-a-vis the mormon way.

I don’t know you, but I know your ‘religion’ and what it believes.
That is problem. Arguing from self-serving absence of proof stances for the mormon church being THE ONE CHURCH of God is ludicrous outside of your stake.

But mormons make great salespeople: they are not afraid of cold calls and are very polite. I’ll give that to the ‘church’.
Acknowledge your extracting of my quote to present a view I did not advocate and then we can deal with some issues. Follow my link and explain how Catholicism could possibly be true when it is internally contradictory.
I do not offer my personal testimony as a reason to believe in Mormonism.
I over the overwhelmingly positive intellectual case of Mormonism as a reason to explore it.
Charity, TOm

 

[TOmNossor]

I have never met or known a mormon who believes as you do. You seem to have created your own religion that is a mix of mormon and Catholic beliefs.

RebeccaJ,
Blake Ostler’s books Exploring Mormon Thought offer the veiw I espouse. A couple of his ideas were a little tough for me to embrace but many, including that God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit were an eternity ago One God was among the ones I had little trouble with (or had already concluded).
I do not think that folks will become LDS because of my writings here and I bet you would wholeheartedly agree upon this in your case.
Still, I hope Catholics and LDS can agree where we can agree and not carry out apologetics the way Robert S seems to be.
Charity, TOm

 

[TOmNossor]

Hi Tom - we agree that Jesus was divine prior to his incarnation. In LDS cosmology, God is the father of our spirits, which were first “intelligences”, and Jesus is the first born spirit child of the Father. In your understanding of LDS teaching, was Jesus created spiritually as divine or did he earn his divinity in the pre-mortal realm? Or was he divine as an “intelligence”? I know of no official pronouncement on this issue and have never heard one in my lifetime of church membership. Regardless, what are your thoughts? I’m sure you can see the logical implications and new questions that follow from the possible answers.

NS

Sorry I missed your post. I believe that Robert S. is neglegently or intentionally misrepresenting me. I find it important to show this when it happens.

I believe that God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirt are One God. A Social Trinity. They have eternally been One God, but they can choose to become incarnate.

This is discussed extensively in Ostler’s book.
Charity, TOm

 

[Rbt_Southwell]

Tom:

Let’s make it simple for all to read.

You EXTRACTED a position on a Danish philosopher of the early 19th century from a reference to ‘vespers’?

Am I good so far?

You accuse me of quoting you out of context. Yet your greater quotation (which you so kindly provided) begs the question:

Everything you write must be correct because you come to it from a belief that you have been blessed by God to do certain things because you are in God’s religion.

If that emboldened statement is incorrect, then tell me how it is to be reconciled with your statement which I quoted from?

You have presumed to be correct, regardless of any claims of intellectual inquiry.

You’ve already tilted the playing field, tom

Robert

 

[TOmNossor]

Tom:

Let’s make it simple for all to read.

You EXTRACTED a position on a Danish philosopher of the early 19th century from a reference to ‘vespers’?

Am I good so far?

You accuse me of quoting you out of context. Yet your greater quotation (which you so kindly provided) begs the question:

Everything you write must be correct because you come to it from a belief that you have been blessed by God to do certain things because you are in God’s religion.

If that emboldened statement is incorrect, then tell me how it is to be reconciled with your statement which I quoted from?

You have presumed to be correct, regardless of any claims of intellectual inquiry.

You’ve already tilted the playing field, tom

Robert

I became a LDS before I had a spiritual testimony.
I continue to believe that the LDS intellectual position is stronger than the Catholic position.
How does this mean that it is only my spiritual testimony that sustains me.
I think the evidence indicates that the CoJCoLDS is God’s church.

Charity, TOm

 

[TOmNossor]

Tom:

Let’s make it simple for all to read.

You EXTRACTED a position on a Danish philosopher of the early 19th century from a reference to ‘vespers’?

Am I good so far?

You accuse me of quoting you out of context. Yet your greater quotation (which you so kindly provided) begs the question:

Everything you write must be correct because you come to it from a belief that you have been blessed by God to do certain things because you are in God’s religion.

If that emboldened statement is incorrect, then tell me how it is to be reconciled with your statement which I quoted from?

You have presumed to be correct, regardless of any claims of intellectual inquiry.

You’ve already tilted the playing field, tom

Robert

Rushing slightly less, I do not know exactly what you are asking.
What I say (especially when I am wrong about Kierkegaard) is not sealed by God as infallible.
I expect my position to be judged on evidence not my spiritual witness.
Here is the link to the question that I cannot get answered by any Catholic it seems:
http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=217932

Charity, TOm

 

[NewSeeker]

Tom - I know John 5:19 well. I need to read it again in context and then read the KFD again to see where you’re coming from. I also want to address the philosophical thread you created but that will take some time to digest. I am thinking about the points you raised and want to address them and don’t want to rush into it.

In the meanwhile, following from your last point, if the social Trinity is comprised of three distinct gods, two corporeal and one not (as I understand the LDS position), do the Father and Son reside within time and space or are they transcendent? If the latter, how do corporeal beings with finite dimensions (i.e. they are made of matter - bodies) transcend materiality, time, and space? If they are not transcendent, but reside wholly within space and time, in what sense then can they be limitless or infinite? If transcendent after all, how do finite (in terms of the space their bodies occupy) beings transcend space and time while remaining fixed within that space and time - as all beings with finite dimensions must be fixed? A finite body presumes the occupation of space within which to fix the shape and extent of the body. Can God be infinite and also occupy space? This seems a logical impossibility. If not, then the infinite God must be able to transcend time and space while residing solely within time and space. Please forgive the crudity of the image but my mind conjures the planet nearest to Kolob (as Joseph Smith put it) as being surrounded by a force field within which time and space do not operate and from whence God enacts his will.

NS

 

[NewSeeker]

Tom - one more point. The LDS church has consistently taught that Jesus is the first born of the Father and was created by Him out of the pool of “intelligences” from whence we all came when we were all created spiritually. How do you square this with Ostler’s assertion that the social Trinity are eternally gods? Thanks.

NS

 

[PaulDupre]

Now, I will not deny that there have been LDS leaders who after Joseph Smith suggested that the KFD means what is stated in #43.

Suggested?? Your “prophets, seers and revelators” taught it as doctrine (and in BY’s case as scripture) for over 150 years.

You can’t have it both ways, Tom. Either your church has been consistently led by living prophets since the days of Joseph Smith, or those “prophets” have taught error about the nature and character of God. If they taught error about something as fundamental as the nature and character of God then they were false prophets.

It’s one or the other.

Paul

 

[RebeccaJ]

It could be, Rebecca, that Tomnossor is following what the prior CEO of the LDS church said on Larry King:

“We welcome many people of different faiths and hope they bring the good of those faiths with them to us.” (I paraphrase).

Thus, Tom is merely synthesizing other beliefs to make mormonism more palatable to his ‘testimony.’

You know, I have met quite a few mormons haunting my parish on Sundays and Holy Days. They honestly see no problem going through the motions as if they were Catholics instead of mormons on a lark.

Robert

I guess some people think it is ok to put any old fruity flavored spin on other’s beliefs and call it the Holy Spirit. It is the most bizarre-o thing I have seen, and I thought mormonism was bizarre enough already.

It seems the Catholic Church and all its religious history has always been about mormons, just that fact was lost to a great and universal apostasy!

 

[Rbt_Southwell]

Rebecca;

In graduate school I was approached by a few of my peers who wanted to talk about “God.” That is, being a mormon.

All three agreed with one another that they were just like me, in fact, they called themselves. “American Catholics.”

After the get-together, my wife and I were comparing notes and she was approached by their wives to discuss “your future with Robert.”
They confided in Shoshana that mormons are really “American Jews.”

My wife is Jewish, of course.

Ah, the mormon come-on.

Robert

 

[truthsilence]

TOm,

I’m slow posting and most of what I want to say has already been covered, but I’ll say it anyway. You said you do not believe Joseph taught what I posted, but what do you make of these statements from his King Follett discourse?:

“What sort of a being was God in the beginning”? “We have imagined that God was God from all eternity…”

“I am going to tell you how God came to be God…”

mldb.byu.edu/follett.htm

Please, let me ask you this. Speaking of God, how does divine come to be divine? Does Joseph explain it, like he said he could?

Thus, God the Father, like God the Son, was never a man JUST LIKE US. Instead, God the Father was a man just like God the Son, which was what Joseph Smith was saying by using John 5:19.

Well, Joseph actually did say “like one of you” (as has already been pointed out by NewSeeker).:

“God himself, who sits enthroned in yonder heaven, is a man like one of you”.

John 5:19

Jesus answered and said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, a son cannot do anything on his own, but only what he sees his father doing; for what he does, his son will do also”.

That is a LONG way from Jesus saying He ever saw His Father as anyone or anything other than God! In my Bible commentary it says: “This proverb or parable is taken from apprenticeship in a trade: the activity of a son is modeled on that of his father. Jesus’ dependence on the Father is justification for doing what the Father does.”

That makes more sense to me than twisting it into Him saying there was ever a time when His Father was not God which I guess is what Joseph was trying to use it to say? And which, by the way, is in direct contradiction to the whole of Sacred Scripture.

Now, I will not deny that there have been LDS leaders who after Joseph Smith suggested that the KFD means what is stated in #43. But, there have been LDS leaders like President Hinckley and President Joseph Fielding Smith who have urged caution concerning this thought that God the Father was once just a man.

TOm, It is still being taught to this day and how could you possibly not know that if you are an active LDS? It is still in the lesson manuals of the LDS church. I know President Hinckley said he didn’t know that the church still teaches it. That simply could not have been true. I don’t blame him for wanting to downplay it for the public though. The reasons are obvious.

So, my personal view is that God the Father was fully divine before He became man just like Christ. I find nothing in scriptures to suggest that I am wrong and much to suggest I am correct. Still, I think it is fine if others believe differently; though I have become willing to dialogue on this toward inviting others to embrace my view.

It seems you disagree with Joseph Smith then. He said God somehow “came to be” God. I don’t think you can have it both ways. For what its worth, I don’t believe there is really a word to describe God; and “divine” is most certainly insufficient. He said of Himself: I AM WHO AM. What does than mean to you?

I do want to thank you for your response to my question, TOm. I am convicted that the view you are presenting is in conflict with Gods word. It doesn’t even match the view of your Prophet… Nevertheless, I appreciate your willingness to try and explain how you came to your understanding of it. But I sincerely hope you will reconsider coming back to the Catholic faith someday.

Peace,
ts

 

[NewSeeker]

Tom - I think I see what you’re trying to say regarding John 5:19. In keeping with the apprenticeship metaphor Truthsilence referenced (which is exactly how it reads to me), I think you’re suggesting that since Jesus only does what he sees the Father do, and since Jesus was divine prior to his incarnation and sinless during his mortal ministry, that the Father must have, ipso facto, a similar existence. That is, the Father must have been a divine spirit, became incarnate, led a mortal ministry, and redeemed men on his own planet before his elevation to fully exalted godhood. Have I expressed your view correctly Tom?

Regardless, I have to agree with Truthsilence that Joseph did indeed teach in the KFD that the father became divine and was not divine from all eternity. Whether Joseph believed the father sinned is irrelevant to this key issue that Truthsilence raised. Joseph did teach, and declare that he received as revelation, that God was not God from all eternity. In other words, he was once not divine but became divine - the same as Jesus, who the Church has clearly and consistently taught is our elder brother, and was created by God as a spirit out of the same pool of “intelligences” from whence we - Jesus’ younger and non-divine spirit siblings - came. How can non-divine become divine? How can the finite become the infinite? This seems an insurmountable obstacle and is something LDS thought has not addressed. LDS theology teaches the men will become gods and women, goddesses. Does god point his finger and poof the finite is transformed into infinity? How does this happen? How can the limited-in-every-way become the absolutely limitless? This dovetails into the question I asked regarding how transcendence and infinity can “reside” within time and space. Are the exalted suddenly thrust “beyond” time and space" to facilitate their divinization?

There are a lot of deep issues here, none of which have been addressed by LDS church leaders. But it’s obvious to me that Joseph Smith taught that God did become divine. Can Joseph Smith have been wrong? How do you square that with LDS scripture ("whether by my voice or the voice of my servants, it is the same - D&C 1:39) and with your belief that God has been divine from all eternity? How can Joseph Smith, of all people, declare something to be doctrinal when it’s not?

NS

 

[TOmNossor]

NewSeeker,
I will be interested in your solution to the problem I offered in the thread. There will be at least a few problems mentioned in this thread. The ones in this thread will be a little harder to define, but if you see one think about it.

In the meanwhile, following from your last point, if the social Trinity is comprised of three distinct gods, two corporeal and one not (as I understand the LDS position), do the Father and Son reside within time and space or are they transcendent?

Few Social Trinitarians myself included use the term “gods” to describe the Trinity. The Social Trinity is not some LDS thing used to excuse our heretical ways. Catholic and Protestant theologians embrace the Social Trinity it would seem because the Augustinian Trinity taken to its logical conclusion is a violation of reason.
BTW, did you see me tell you that you believe that God the Son is homoousian with men?
Here is an article in the Protestant Journal Modern Reformation:
http://www.modernreformation.org/default.php?page=articledisplay&var1=ArtRead&var2=236&var3=main
Here is an article that references Catholic and Protestant Social Trinitarians when discussing the LDS view of the Trinity. It also mentions the common view that the Cappadocian Fathers wrote Social Trinity like statements (personally I think all Trinity formulations require social aspects, but the Cappadocians are a little more than just normal).
http://ldsfocuschrist.blogspot.com/2007/07/reassessing-joseph-smiths-theology-in.html

Now, God’s embodiment is in fact critical to the issue of timelessness or lack of timelessness. Dr. Paulsen send Ostler to visit Elder Maxwell specifically to explain how embodiment precludes absolute timelessness. So, I would suggest that God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are not timeless. The Holy Spirit is not embodied, but He acts in time and exists in relation to the Father and Son such that I think attempting to maintain that He is timeless is difficult.

Of course, I believe hypostatically uniting God the Son with God the Man, having God the Man being in time and embodied and God the Son being timeless is problematic. A number of things including this result in the conclusion that God the Son is unaffected by the incarnation.

I believe that a characteristic of God is not that he is immutable or impassible. In fact rather than God being the unmoved mover, He is the most moved mover. I also believe that God is the “self surpassing surpasser of all.” The incarnation genuinely affected God the Son and God the Father. God the Son and God the Father gained a body through their incarnation.

If not, then the infinite God must be able to transcend time and space while residing solely within time and space. Please forgive the crudity of the image but my mind conjures the planet nearest to Kolob (as Joseph Smith put it) as being surrounded by a force field within which time and space do not operate and from whence God enacts his will.

So, I suggest that God is not timeless. How can he be infinite then?
First as a Catholic, the hypostatically united God the Son/Man is infinate and eternal and yet also in time and embodied. I cannot completely explain this. I think the LDS solution is better.
God is intimately connected to all that exists. He lends concurring energy to everything within the universe. He is also the most moved mover. God experiences everything through His “divine vision” except that his experience goes far beyond just vision (which is not a problem for my view of God since I do not suggest that God is impassible or immutable). God is intimately connected to all of us (it is hard/impossible to postulated God loving me as an individual if He is impassible).

One final thing. God is unchanging in at least a few ways. He is always the self-surpassing-surpasser of all. There is no being more that God (this really demanded within the original Lectures on Faith). He is always divine. While His incarnation is via the very Biblical kenotic emptying (instead of the hypostatic union), the emptying is not such that God ceases to possess divinity. Finally, God is unchanging in the way that the Jews always meant when they declared Him to be unchanging. He is faithful to His covenants.

That is enough for now. I will try to read and respond to other things later.
Charity, TOm

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

The only reason to align oneself with a specific religion is to fulfill the will of God for your life.
The reason I am a LDS is that I am convinced that God desires me to be a LDS.

As I have focused on intellectual issues here, I should say that it was originally an intellectual weighing that brought me to the CoJCoLDS. The intellectual strength of the CoJCoLDS has only grown since those first days and years as a LDS despite my focus upon anti-Mormonism and Catholic apologetics.

That being said, the other aspect for me (the later aspect in my case, but the original aspect in most LDS case) is that I have communicated with God concerning the truth of the CoJCoLDS. I learned it is His church and He desires that I contribute my time, talents, and other things with which He has bless me. That being said, individual communication with God is something that cannot be imprinted upon another. My “testimony” is my own and can not be given to anyone else. The fact that God communicated with me can be shared in that He might communicate to you or others, but you cannot (and indeed should not) become a LDS because God communicated with me.

The personal nature of God’s communication with me is the reason that I focus on intellectual based issues when discussing the pros and cons of religions. I believe the Bible is far more of an “ask God” book than a “let’s reason together” book; but both have there place in our search.

Let me offer three things lest they are missed:

• The Con list is filled with dubious assertions that would take time to address. Things like “absolutely zero,” or “likely a conman” do not have a place in a pro/con list for a true seeker. They are conclusion based statements not investigation based statements.
• The length and/or quality of the pros and cons do not matter as much as truth. Toward this end there are a few things mentioned above, but another important aspect is that if a religion has something in absolute conflict internally, with God, or … this something if unresolvable is a likely a disqualifier (that is if you will place significant weight upon reason in your decision).
• If you are really a fan of philosophy you might pursue this thread. The first thread has a little prelude mentioning this thread that I mostly edited out in the second thread, but neither has gotten much attention (though the second one has one response now). Also, Ostler’s books are terrific.
  http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=217571
  http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=217932
  …

Thank you, Tom, i will add these to the list.

**Pros and Cons of Mormonism:

Pros**

1. • There is a strong social support system among active members of the Latter Day Saints Church.
   • The LDS wards do a better job at creating a sense of belonging than some other religious groups.
   • Mormons emphasize strong, close, loving family ties.
   • The LDS welfare system to help those in need is without peer.
   • There are many well-meaning, good Mormons out there and they make great relatives and neighbors.
   • In exchange for obeying the leaders of the LDS church, you get the social safety net.
   • Properly understood LDS theology is Biblical theology.
   • There are numerous problems with the BOM that have been used to discredit it, but on the whole I believe the answers to the problems and the positive evidences weight strongly in favor of the BOM.
   • Early Christian history offers much reason to see an “Apostasy of Authority” and to see a restoration of various doctrines found within the CoJCoLDS.
   • The Bible supports the LDS view of the Trinity.
   • The Bible teaches, and the early church acknowledges, that men can actually become gods.
   • The small group with a mission status promotes community.
   • Church programs for kids are very good.
   • LDS teens engage in less premarital sex, drink less, attend church more, believe in God more, and have a greater degree of positive feelings toward parents.
   • The church, especially under the administration of the late Gordon B. Hinckley, has worked hard to mainstream its image and has deemphasized to a considerable degree the idea that mormons are a “peculiar people”.
   • LDS don’t seem to take their faith for granted.
   • Spencer W. Kimball said he received a revelation from God that ALL worthy male members of the LDS church (including Blacks, who were previously denied ordination to the Priesthood due to skin color), should now be allowed to hold the LDS Priesthood.
   • God gives a personal witness to people that His desire is for them to be Mormons and communicates this desire to them.
   • The Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints has an intellectual strenght.
   • It does not matter how many reason there are to reject Mormonism as long as there is at least one right reason to accept it.
     http://www.paytec-online.com/Checkmark.gif

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Cons

1. 
   *]Mormonism is not really a Christian religion.
   *]Mormons think they can become gods.
   *]There is absolutely zero linguistic, archaeological or historical support for anything claimed in the Book of Mormon and other LDS documents.
   *]Enjoyment of all that the community has to offer you socially and spiritually is contingent on you receiving a spiritual witness that the Church is true.
   *]They deny almost every line of the Apostle’s Creed.
   *]There is absolutely no archaeological or historical evidence to back up anything that Joseph Smith ever uttered or wrote down.
   *]Joseph Smith was likely a conman who used a self-made papacy to garner power and sexual conquest.
   *]Racism is the prevalent attitude among LDS.
   *]There are cases in which people who depart from the church lose all their friendships.
   *]The Mormons require 10% of your money to enter the LDS Temple. If you don’t pay them the 10% you aren’t allowed to attend your children’s weddings or any other weddings in the temple for that matter.
   *]If you don’t pay them their 10% they claim you will not make it into heaven so essentially you are paying for salvation.
   *]The problem with Mormonism is the simple fact that it is pseudo-christian if that and it is polytheistic in nature.
   *]Mormons are no different from the Jehovah’s Witnesses in how they warp the bible.
   *]The amount of control over your life that you must cede to LDS leaders is great: You are told how and when to serve.
   *]Your compliance with LDS rules will be monitored and your ability to participate in various functions will be affected. (If you don’t show that you meet the criteria you will not be allowed in the temple for example.)
   *]There is absolutely no accounting for tithing money: It goes to Salt Lake City and is spent without letting members know where it goes.
   *]Joseph’s vision seems to be weighted above Jesus’ words.
   *]The continued revelation is at times historically contradictory.
   *]-]Divorce is encouraged if your partner leaves the LDS faith/-].
   *]Fallibility in moral character is allowable for prophets, for all have sinned. Fallibility in doctrinal utterances is inallowable. True prophets cannot utter false doctrine and remain prophets.
   *]Consider Brigham Young: He pronounced many false doctrines. If prophets can mistake speculation for doctrine, then how can they be trusted?
   *]While they oppose most abortions, Mormons don’t believe in the sanctity of life of the unborn.
   *]The one, single, only and perfect reason to irrefutably, undeniably and totally reject mormonism can be summed up in the two most profound words: Holy Eucharist.
   *]LDS teachings are being disproven by science (for example, DNA evidence shows no Isrealite ancestory in Native Americans).
   *]They ban alcohol and caffine.
   *]At one time, they taught that men can marry more than one woman.
   *]Some Mormons are not nice.
   *]Mormonism is extremely ethnocentric.
   *]Joseph Smith was a fraud. For example, he received revelations and compiled the Book of Commandments, but they were later changed in the Doctrine and Covenants.
   *]Mormons are not allowed to pray to Jesus or to the Holy Ghost, nor are they permitted to worship them.
   *]If you are mormon, if/when you marry that perfect mormon mate, in a mormon temple, none of your non-mormon family will be allowed to attend your wedding ceremony.
   *]The mormon church sets your grooming standard and fashion selection.
   *]You can confidently claim anything (great apostasy; mark of cain; plural marriage; eternal progression; baptism of the dead; many gods and goddesses) without worrying about PROVING it, because mormons are the “the true church.”
   *]You can “retranslate” your “scripture” (the BoM and other soporific tomes) into “better” English as your theology changes.
   *]Every man a priest, every man a god. Need I say more?
   *]Women are beholden to menfolk (we mormons rule planets!)
   *]Apparently the belief is that God is falable.
   *]Mormon prophets had difficulties with ancient Egyptian.
   *]The Book of Mormon is a fraud, as Native Americans come from Asia, not Israel, and there are no Lamanites.
   *]There is not enough focus on Jesus Christ, and far too much focus on the Church being true, the BOM and LDS prophets being “true”.
   *]The goal of going to the temple to have your family sealed to you for eternity, and staying worthy enough to be able to do so. These things are emphasized and talked about far more than Jesus Christ is.
   *]It is a “blessings-for-me” theology and mentality. I pay my tithe, and I am given entrance to the temple. I think this puts too much focus on doing things, and even giving charitable donations for purposes of self rather than on simply helping those in need.
   *]The doctrine that God was once a man just like any other man; who lived on an earth and progressed to Godhood. This is in direct conflict with what God has said of himself. He said he is Eternally God. The Great I AM. He Who Is. Without beginning or end.
   *]You can believe Jesus or you can believe Joseph Smith. The contradiction is too great to believe them both.
   *]The Mormon “welfare system” helps only their own.
   *]Mormons do not consider the HS to be a person, or a member of the Trinity, but an “it”.
   *]Confession in the Mormon Church does not seem to be confidential.
   *]You dont have to think for yourself. You simply believe what you are told to, no matter how bizzare it sounds.
   *]Its much easier to be a prophet. It doesnt matter if it doesnt come true, or we can fit events to suit your prophecy (even if they dont really fit).

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Quote:
Originally Posted by TOmNossor forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif
*Assuming you are really investigating the CoJCoLDS, this site has far too few LDS to adequately deal with the plethora of errors in your CON list. *

Charity, TOm

Soc can head over to:

ldsforums.net

or

mormonapologetics.org

WhyMe:

I’m assuming you and TOm are both Mormons. Both of you and Zer have suggested that (A) i go somewhere else with my questions. Zer and TOm have mentioned that i should (B) be true the the internal witness of the Holy Spirit. Yet if i were to do (A) i would not be obedient to (B). I have a strong sense form the Holy Spirit that my place to ask these questions is here, not somewhere else.

Why this is i do not know. Perhaps the Holy Spirit wants me to discuss this with you three? Perhaps one of you will have the answers that i will not find elsewhere? Perhaps some Roman Catholics might benefit from our conversations? Perhaps i will benefit from the replies of some Roman Catholics or others? I do not know. It is a mystery to me. However, until the Spirit of God leads me somewhere else, here is where i will stay. To you i can only say what the Apostle Peter said when he was encouraged to not be true to the witness of the Holy Ghost:

“We must obey God rather than men!”
(Acts 5:29)

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Pro’s:

1. I think they do a better job of actually living like Christians than most Christians.
2. Encourage large families and family togetherness
3. They have a strong social support system kinda like Catholics did in the 1800’s.

Con’s

1. Well if it’s wrong you can expect to be worshipping and believing incredibly blasphemous things, but that can probably be said for any religion. I mean if Catholics are wrong we worship a piece of bread like it was God, can’t think of a worse form of idolatory than that.

Thanks for adding to the list, Lukewarm!

**Pros and Cons of Mormonism:

Pros**

1. 
   *]There is a strong social support system among active members of the Latter Day Saints Church.
   *]The LDS wards do a better job at creating a sense of belonging than some other religious groups.
   *]Mormons emphasize strong, close, loving family ties.
   *]The LDS welfare system to help those in need is without peer.
   *]There are many well-meaning, good Mormons out there and they make great relatives and neighbors.
   *]In exchange for obeying the leaders of the LDS church, you get the social safety net.
   *]Properly understood LDS theology is Biblical theology.
   *]There are numerous problems with the BOM that have been used to discredit it, but on the whole I believe the answers to the problems and the positive evidences weight strongly in favor of the BOM.
   *]Early Christian history offers much reason to see an “Apostasy of Authority” and to see a restoration of various doctrines found within the CoJCoLDS.
   *]The Bible supports the LDS view of the Trinity.
   *]The Bible teaches, and the early church acknowledges, that men can actually become gods.
   *]The small group with a mission status promotes community.
   *]Church programs for kids are very good.
   *]LDS teens engage in less premarital sex, drink less, attend church more, believe in God more, and have a greater degree of positive feelings toward parents.
   *]The church, especially under the administration of the late Gordon B. Hinckley, has worked hard to mainstream its image and has deemphasized to a considerable degree the idea that mormons are a “peculiar people”.
   *]LDS don’t seem to take their faith for granted.
   *]Spencer W. Kimball said he received a revelation from God that ALL worthy male members of the LDS church (including Blacks, who were previously denied ordination to the Priesthood due to skin color), should now be allowed to hold the LDS Priesthood.
   *]God gives a personal witness to people that His desire is for them to be Mormons and communicates this desire to them.
   *]The Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints has an intellectual strenght.
   *]It does not matter how many reason there are to reject Mormonism as long as there is at least one right reason to accept it.
   *]Mormons do a better job of actually living like Christians than most Christians. Mormons encourage large families and family togetherness.
   *]They have a strong social support system kinda like Catholics did in the 1800’s.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Cons

1. 
   *]Mormonism is not really a Christian religion.
   *]Mormons think they can become gods.
   *]There is absolutely zero linguistic, archaeological or historical support for anything claimed in the Book of Mormon and other LDS documents.
   *]Enjoyment of all that the community has to offer you socially and spiritually is contingent on you receiving a spiritual witness that the Church is true.
   *]They deny almost every line of the Apostle’s Creed.
   *]There is absolutely no archaeological or historical evidence to back up anything that Joseph Smith ever uttered or wrote down.
   *]Joseph Smith was likely a conman who used a self-made papacy to garner power and sexual conquest.
   *]Racism is the prevalent attitude among LDS.
   *]There are cases in which people who depart from the church lose all their friendships.
   *]The Mormons require 10% of your money to enter the LDS Temple. If you don’t pay them the 10% you aren’t allowed to attend your children’s weddings or any other weddings in the temple for that matter.
   *]If you don’t pay them their 10% they claim you will not make it into heaven so essentially you are paying for salvation.
   *]The problem with Mormonism is the simple fact that it is pseudo-christian if that and it is polytheistic in nature.
   *]Mormons are no different from the Jehovah’s Witnesses in how they warp the bible.
   *]The amount of control over your life that you must cede to LDS leaders is great: You are told how and when to serve.
   *]Your compliance with LDS rules will be monitored and your ability to participate in various functions will be affected. (If you don’t show that you meet the criteria you will not be allowed in the temple for example.)
   *]There is absolutely no accounting for tithing money: It goes to Salt Lake City and is spent without letting members know where it goes.
   *]Joseph’s vision seems to be weighted above Jesus’ words.
   *]The continued revelation is at times historically contradictory.
   *]-]Divorce is encouraged if your partner leaves the LDS faith./-]
   *]Fallibility in moral character is allowable for prophets, for all have sinned. Fallibility in doctrinal utterances is inallowable. True prophets cannot utter false doctrine and remain prophets.
   *]Consider Brigham Young: He pronounced many false doctrines. If prophets can mistake speculation for doctrine, then how can they be trusted?
   *]While they oppose most abortions, Mormons don’t believe in the sanctity of life of the unborn.
   *]The one, single, only and perfect reason to irrefutably, undeniably and totally reject mormonism can be summed up in the two most profound words: Holy Eucharist.
   *]LDS teachings are being disproven by science (for example, DNA evidence shows no Isrealite ancestory in Native Americans).
   *]They ban alcohol and caffine.
   *]At one time, they taught that men can marry more than one woman.
   *]Some Mormons are not nice.
   *]Mormonism is extremely ethnocentric.
   *]Joseph Smith was a fraud. For example, he received revelations and compiled the Book of Commandments, but they were later changed in the Doctrine and Covenants.
   *]Mormons are not allowed to pray to Jesus or to the Holy Ghost, nor are they permitted to worship them.
   *]If you are mormon, if/when you marry that perfect mormon mate, in a mormon temple, none of your non-mormon family will be allowed to attend your wedding ceremony.
   *]The mormon church sets your grooming standard and fashion selection.
   *]You can confidently claim anything (great apostasy; mark of cain; plural marriage; eternal progression; baptism of the dead; many gods and goddesses) without worrying about PROVING it, because mormons are the “the true church.”
   *]You can “retranslate” your “scripture” (the BoM and other soporific tomes) into “better” English as your theology changes.
   *]Every man a priest, every man a god. Need I say more?
   *]Women are beholden to menfolk (we mormons rule planets!)
   *]Apparently the belief is that God is falable.
   *]Mormon prophets had difficulties with ancient Egyptian.
   *]The Book of Mormon is a fraud, as Native Americans come from Asia, not Israel, and there are no Lamanites.
   *]There is not enough focus on Jesus Christ, and far too much focus on the Church being true, the BOM and LDS prophets being “true”.
   *]The goal of going to the temple to have your family sealed to you for eternity, and staying worthy enough to be able to do so. These things are emphasized and talked about far more than Jesus Christ is.
   *]It is a “blessings-for-me” theology and mentality. I pay my tithe, and I am given entrance to the temple. I think this puts too much focus on doing things, and even giving charitable donations for purposes of self rather than on simply helping those in need.
   *]The doctrine that God was once a man just like any other man; who lived on an earth and progressed to Godhood. This is in direct conflict with what God has said of himself. He said he is Eternally God. The Great I AM. He Who Is. Without beginning or end.
   *]You can believe Jesus or you can believe Joseph Smith. The contradiction is too great to believe them both.
   *]The Mormon “welfare system” helps only their own.
   *]Mormons do not consider the HS to be a person, or a member of the Trinity, but an “it”.
   *]Confession in the Mormon Church does not seem to be confidential.
   *]You dont have to think for yourself. You simply believe what you are told to, no matter how bizzare it sounds.
   *]Its much easier to be a prophet. It doesnt matter if it doesnt come true, or we can fit events to suit your prophecy (even if they dont really fit).
   *]If it’s wrong you can expect to be worshipping and believing incredibly blasphemous things, but that can probably be said for any religion.
   http://departments.weber.edu/ce/earlycollege/Images/Checkmark.jpg

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

The big con is that it’s not true. That should be enough.

It is my desire to follow the Truth, CD, whereever He leads me.



**Pros and Cons of Mormonism:

Pros**

1. 
   *]There is a strong social support system among active members of the Latter Day Saints Church.
   *]The LDS wards do a better job at creating a sense of belonging than some other religious groups.
   *]Mormons emphasize strong, close, loving family ties.
   *]The LDS welfare system to help those in need is without peer.
   *]There are many well-meaning, good Mormons out there and they make great relatives and neighbors.
   *]In exchange for obeying the leaders of the LDS church, you get the social safety net.
   *]Properly understood LDS theology is Biblical theology.
   *]There are numerous problems with the BOM that have been used to discredit it, but on the whole I believe the answers to the problems and the positive evidences weight strongly in favor of the BOM.
   *]Early Christian history offers much reason to see an “Apostasy of Authority” and to see a restoration of various doctrines found within the CoJCoLDS.
   *]The Bible supports the LDS view of the Trinity.
   *]The Bible teaches, and the early church acknowledges, that men can actually become gods.
   *]The small group with a mission status promotes community.
   *]Church programs for kids are very good.
   *]LDS teens engage in less premarital sex, drink less, attend church more, believe in God more, and have a greater degree of positive feelings toward parents.
   *]The church, especially under the administration of the late Gordon B. Hinckley, has worked hard to mainstream its image and has deemphasized to a considerable degree the idea that mormons are a “peculiar people”.
   *]LDS don’t seem to take their faith for granted.
   *]Spencer W. Kimball said he received a revelation from God that ALL worthy male members of the LDS church (including Blacks, who were previously denied ordination to the Priesthood due to skin color), should now be allowed to hold the LDS Priesthood.
   *]God gives a personal witness to people that His desire is for them to be Mormons and communicates this desire to them.
   *]The Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints has an intellectual strenght.
   *]It does not matter how many reason there are to reject Mormonism as long as there is at least one right reason to accept it.
   *]Mormons do a better job of actually living like Christians than most Christians. Mormons encourage large families and family togetherness.
   *]They have a strong social support system kinda like Catholics did in the 1800’s.