Pros and Cons of Mormonism

[Socrates4Jesus]

Z,
Please be nice. This poster has not shown themselves to be a jerk.

**Pros and Cons of Mormonism:

Pros**

1. 
   *]There is a strong social support system among active members of the Latter Day Saints Church.
   *]The LDS wards do a better job at creating a sense of belonging than some other religious groups.
   *]Mormons emphasize strong, close, loving family ties.
   *]The LDS welfare system to help those in need is without peer.
   *]There are many well-meaning, good Mormons out there and they make great relatives and neighbors.
   *]In exchange for obeying the leaders of the LDS church, you get the social safety net.
   *]Properly understood LDS theology is Biblical theology.
   *]There are numerous problems with the BOM that have been used to discredit it, but on the whole I believe the answers to the problems and the positive evidences weight strongly in favor of the BOM.
   *]Early Christian history offers much reason to see an “Apostasy of Authority” and to see a restoration of various doctrines found within the CoJCoLDS.
   *]The Bible supports the LDS view of the Trinity.
   *]The Bible teaches, and the early church acknowledges, that men can actually become gods.
   *]The small group with a mission status promotes community.
   Cons
   1. 
      *]Mormonism is not really a Christian religion.
      *]Mormons think they can become gods.
      *]There is absolutely zero linguistic, archaeological or historical support for anything claimed in the Book of Mormon and other LDS documents.
      *]Enjoyment of all that the community has to offer you socially and spiritually is contingent on you receiving a spiritual witness that the Church is true.
      *]They deny almost every line of the Apostle’s Creed.
      *]There is absolutely no archaeological or historical evidence to back up anything that Joseph Smith ever uttered or wrote down.
      *]Joseph Smith was likely a conman who used a self-made papacy to garner power and sexual conquest.
      *]Racism is the prevalent attitude among LDS.
      *]There are cases in which people who depart from the church lose all their friendships.
      *]The Mormons require 10% of your money to enter the LDS Temple. If you don’t pay them the 10% you aren’t allowed to attend your children’s weddings or any other weddings in the temple for that matter.
      *]If you don’t pay them their 10% they claim you will not make it into heaven so essentially you are paying for salvation.
      *]The problem with Mormonism is the simple fact that it is pseudo-christian if that and it is polytheistic in nature.
      *]Mormons are no different from the Jehovah’s Witnesses in how they warp the bible.
      *]The amount of control over your life that you must cede to LDS leaders is great: You are told how and when to serve.
      *]Your compliance with LDS rules will be monitored and your ability to participate in various functions will be affected. (If you don’t show that you meet the criteria you will not be allowed in the temple for example.)
      *]There is absolutely no accounting for tithing money: It goes to Salt Lake City and is spent without letting members know where it goes.
      *]Joseph’s vision seems to be weighted above Jesus’ words.
      *]The continued revelation is at times historically contradictory.
      *]Divorce is encouraged if your partner leaves the LDS faith.
      *]Fallibility in moral character is allowable for prophets, for all have sinned. Fallibility in doctrinal utterances is inallowable. True prophets cannot utter false doctrine and remain prophets.
      *]Consider Brigham Young: He pronounced many false doctrines. If prophets can mistake speculation for doctrine, then how can they be trusted?
      *]While they oppose most abortions, Mormons don’t believe in the sanctity of life of the unborn.
      *]The one, single, only and perfect reason to irrefutably, undeniably and totally reject mormonism can be summed up in the two most profound words: Holy Eucharist.
      *]LDS teachings are being disproven by science (for example, DNA evidence shows no Isrealite ancestory in Native Americans).
      *]They ban alcohol and caffine.
      *]At one time, they taught that men can marry more than one woman.
      *]Some Mormons are not nice.
      http://staff.edmonds.wednet.edu/lwi/checkmark.jpg

 

[NewSeeker]

Soc. - that’s quite a list you have there. I’d like to add some pros. I’m entering the Catholic Church next month, but I do see much value in the faith of my upbringing.

1. Church programs for kids are very good. The primary program provides a solid grounding in morals.
2. Recent survey research was conducted (I forget which university, but I can find a link and post it if you like) and showed that among all denominations, LDS teens engage in less premarital sex, drink less, attend church more, believe in God more, and have a greater degree of positive feelings toward parents.
3. The church, especially under the administration of the late Gordon B. Hinckley, has worked hard to mainstream its image and has deemphasized to a considerable degree the idea that mormons are a “peculiar people” (this was once a point of pride for mormons). This, to me, is a good thing. Some of the more esoteric and controversial doctrines pronounced by Joseph Smith have also been deemphasized, if not renounced, as part of this process. This has resulted in substantial bridge building with people of other faiths and mormons generally aren’t viewed as odd nearly so frequently as in the past.

NS

 

[NewSeeker]

I have one more: the pioneer heritage is unique and inspiring. Regardless of what you may think about the truth of Mormon doctrine, it’s undeniable that the early Mormons sacrificed much for their faith. In some ways, they were like the early Christians, enduring severe persecution and sometimes death. Their journey across the plains contributed greatly to the opening of the West to further U.S. settlement and expansion.

A con of that experience, already mentioned, is that such a heritage has contributed to a persecution complex that is fairly widespread.

NS

 

[RAR]

Pro: LDS don’t seem to take their faith for granted

If the LDS church becomes permanently established, I’d expect people may begin taking it for granted, but this is something I very much admire.

 

[NewSeeker]

Pro: LDS don’t seem to take their faith for granted

That’s true. I think it’s related to the fact that the mormon persecutions occured fairly recently (unlike the christian persecutions, which occured nearly 2000 years ago - it’s easy to take that for granted). Many mormons (including me) can point to family members who suffered, e.g. a great-great grandmother who was forced out of a home by a mob or lost a child to exposure while walking in snow behind a handcart. That’s powerful stuff for social cohesion. The flip side is the ease of developing a persecution complex within the community as such tales are told again and again.

NS

 

[majick275]

I would add that mromonism is extremely ethnocentric. the promised land is america, the return of Christ will be in missouri, the “culture” of the LDS church is Utah. the chosen race is the tribe of joseph and of those Ephraim is “more chosen”. it is predominantly led by white americans of north european/scandinavian descent.

 

[truthsilence]

Hi Newseeker! God bless you!

(more on racism)

Regarding an ‘Indian Placement Program’, which was in place between 1954 and 1996, matching Native American children (“Lamanites”) with LDS families, Spencer W. Kimball said this:

“I saw a striking contrast in the progress of the Indian people today as
against that of only fifteen years ago. Truly the scales of darkness
are falling from their eyes, and they are fast becoming a white and
delightsome people…The day of the Lamanites is nigh. For years
they have been growing delightsome, and they are now becoming white and
delightsome, as they were promised. In this picture of the twenty
Lamanite missionaries, fifteen of the twenty were as light as
Anglos;…The children in the home placement program in Utah are often
lighter than their brothers and sisters in the hogans on the
reservation. At one meeting a father and mother and their
sixteen-year-old daughter were present, the little member girl…was
several shades lighter than her parents…There was the doctor in a
Utah city who for two years had had an Indian boy in his home who
stated that he was some shades lighter than the younger brother just
coming into the program from the reservation. These young members of
the Church are changing to whiteness and to delightsomeness. One white
elder jokingly said that he and his companion were donating blood
regularly to the hospital in the hope that the process might be
accelerated. The day of the Lamanites has come…today the dark clouds are dissipating.”
(Spencer W. Kimball, Improvement Era, December 1960. pages 922-23)

As a pro however, in 1978 as thirteenth Prophet and President of the LDS church, Spencer W. Kimball received a revelation from God that ALL worthy male members of the LDS church (including Blacks, who were previously denied ordination to the Priesthood due to skin color), should now be allowed to hold the Priesthood.

 

[NewSeeker]

Hi Truthsilence! God bless you too!!! The Rite of Election is this Sunday. I’m on pins and needles.

Regarding the Indian Placement Program, my family participated between the years 1977-1983. I had two native american “sisters” come to live with us over this period - Lucinda and Dianne. Both were Navajo from Arizona. As kids, we “knew” that these were descendants of Lehi. It made the Book of Mormon (with it’s “white and delightsome” references) come alive. I have no idea whether the girls wanted to come or if their parents made them live with us or if the parents were happy about the arrangement. I’ll never forget the day Dianne’s parents drove up to pick her up and left with all of our bath towels. LOL! I wonder if they were sending a message with that act?

On the plus side, we lily white Salt Lake mormons were exposed to native american culture. I suppose it’s also positive that the girls got to experience middle class America and good schools. (google George P. Lee for an example of how the program helped at least one boy graduate from high school and go on to earn a doctorate. He even ended up as a general authority in the church.) As a con, my native american “sisters” were away from their real family and there was definitely zero emphasis on helping the girls celebrate and appreciate their true heritage (Navajo, not Lamanite - since there never were any Lamanites). Instead, the purpose of the program was to “mormonize” the girls. I have no idea whether it worked. I haven’t seen or heard from either of them in 25 years.

NewSeeker

 

[ibkc]

This stuff is heartbreaking.

 

[truthsilence]

Hi Truthsilence! God bless you too!!! The Rite of Election is this Sunday. I’m on pins and needles.

Thank you. I am so happy for you. It’s been quite a journey for you hasn’t it? I’m smiling for you big time here.

Regarding the Indian Placement Program, my family participated between the years 1977-1983. I had two native american “sisters” come to live with us over this period - Lucinda and Dianne. Both were Navajo from Arizona. As kids, we “knew” that these were descendants of Lehi. It made the Book of Mormon (with it’s “white and delightsome” references) come alive. I have no idea whether the girls wanted to come or if their parents made them live with us or if the parents were happy about the arrangement. I’ll never forget the day Dianne’s parents drove up to pick her up and left with all of our bath towels. LOL! I wonder if they were sending a message with that act?

I’m sure that the families who participated in the program were doing what they thought was right, and just trying to be helpful. I was oblivious to this stuff, because my family was not active at all in the church. When I first heard this idea about skin changing color, I thought it had to be a joke.That had to be quite stimulating for a young kids imagination. It sounds like even some adults were checking for “signs of change” on a pretty regular basis. Yikes.

On the plus side, we lily white Salt Lake mormons were exposed to native american culture. I suppose it’s also positive that the girls got to experience middle class America and good schools. (google George P. Lee for an example of how the program helped at least one boy graduate from high school and go on to earn a doctorate. He even ended up as a general authority in the church.) As a con, my native american “sisters” were away from their real family and there was definitely zero emphasis on helping the girls celebrate and appreciate their true heritage (Navajo, not Lamanite - since there never were any Lamanites). Instead, the purpose of the program was to “mormonize” the girls. I have no idea whether it worked. I haven’t seen or heard from either of them in 25 years.

I haven’t heard too many things positive about it, so I’ll make it a point to look up George P. Lee. Thanks.

Again, God be with you, and Congratulations on Rite of Election coming up this Sunday!

 

[NewSeeker]

When I first heard this idea about skin changing color, I thought it had to be a joke.That had to be quite stimulating for a young kids imagination. It sounds like even some adults were checking for “signs of change” on a pretty regular basis. Yikes.

I don’t recall my parents ever mentioning Pres. Kimball’s stories about changing skin color, or tracking “signs of change”, though I certainly remember reading (and having read to me at home and in church) the “white and delightsome” verses. I know they still believe in the literalness of the dark skin “curse” mentioned frequently in the Bom. Even so, the fact that so many church members believed (and still believe) in that doctrine is troubling. Yikes, indeed.

There’s a dark side to George P. Lee’s story as you’ll learn when you google him.

NS

 

[Good_Daughter]

Your postion Good Daughter is likely the DEVELOPED Catholic position. I agree life is sacred from the moment of conception, but when does ensoulment occur?

I really should leave, but since I can mostly just link to a previous discussion let me do this.

1. LDS are opposed to all abortions and do a better job than Catholics at not having abortions. Life is sacred from the moment of conception, but ensoulment may or may not have occured.
2. The best read of the LDS position is quite similar to the ancient Catholic position as opposed to the developed Catholic position.
3. The reason of the LDS position is a huge emphasis upon agency and trusting God. This combined with no revelation on ensoulment. It is interesting that in the absence of revelation the prevailing Catholic view on ensoulment has changed over time.
4. I have also spoken with LDS social services and know zero abortions and a handful of babies born to rape victims. If ensoulement has occurred abortion cannot happen and will not be performed according to LDS doctrine as I read it.
5. I personally am opposed to all abortion and would only approve of the abortions approved by the Catholic Church.
6. I believe the bioethics view espoused in the Catholic Church concerning ectopic pregnancies is excessively legalistic and in interest of providing a safer procedure (less likely to kill the mother and less likely to prevent future children) I would advocate chemical or physical action on the fetus rather than cutting out a section of the felopian tube and killing the fetus 100% of the time too.

For discussion of the above 6 points see this thread:
http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=30457

If you want to ask about 1-6 please quote the relevant section from the thread I linked.
Charity, TOm

Let’s stick to a discussion of Mormonism as the OP requested.

I’m not sure why Mormons maintain that the Holy Spirit would, even on rare occasions, tell anyone that it is alright to deliberately kill an innocent human being. With no Mormon revelation on ensoulment (correct me if I’m wrong), wouldn’t it be wiser to err on the side of caution? Do you know that a newborn has a soul? Would you pray about killing one?

 

[why_me]

Hi Truthsilence! God bless you too!!! The Rite of Election is this Sunday. I’m on pins and needles.

Regarding the Indian Placement Program, my family participated between the years 1977-1983. I had two native american “sisters” come to live with us over this period - Lucinda and Dianne. Both were Navajo from Arizona. As kids, we “knew” that these were descendants of Lehi. It made the Book of Mormon (with it’s “white and delightsome” references) come alive. I have no idea whether the girls wanted to come or if their parents made them live with us or if the parents were happy about the arrangement. I’ll never forget the day Dianne’s parents drove up to pick her up and left with all of our bath towels. LOL! I wonder if they were sending a message with that act?

On the plus side, we lily white Salt Lake mormons were exposed to native american culture. I suppose it’s also positive that the girls got to experience middle class America and good schools. (google George P. Lee for an example of how the program helped at least one boy graduate from high school and go on to earn a doctorate. He even ended up as a general authority in the church.) As a con, my native american “sisters” were away from their real family and there was definitely zero emphasis on helping the girls celebrate and appreciate their true heritage (Navajo, not Lamanite - since there never were any Lamanites). Instead, the purpose of the program was to “mormonize” the girls. I have no idea whether it worked. I haven’t seen or heard from either of them in 25 years.

NewSeeker

And yet we have this:

Accusations that the LDS Church used its influence to push children into joining the program prompted the U.S. government in 1977 to commission a study conducted under the auspices of the Interstate Compact Secretariat. Its findings rejected such accusations. In the resulting report, written by Robert E. Leach, Native American parents emphatically stated that they, not the children, decided to apply for placement. These parents typically stated that they were pleased that the program led their children to happiness and a better economic situation while the children still identified with their Indian heritage. This participation, they claimed, also helped the rest of the family to understand and deal more effectively with Anglos. They consistently expressed appreciation to the foster families for caring for their children. Some Indian leaders were intent on limiting the placement of Indian children among Anglos. However, after hearing testimony and examining current research, the committee agreed in 1977 to permit the LDS Indian Student Placement program to continue.

lightplanet.com/mormons/daily/education/indian_eom.htm

 

[why_me]

This stuff is heartbreaking.

I agree. But when you read the site that I linked to, you will find that it is not so heartbreaking. Only the spin in this thread is heartbreaking.

 

[why_me]

And of course we also have this information:

Many theses, dissertations, formal reports, and published articles find that the program has been successful and valuable. Placement students usually come from rural families with stable but limited economic and cultural opportunities. Starting with limited language skills, the students in the placement program come out with less fear of failure, more confidence in their future, and higher academic skills and grades, and a better self-image than their reservation peers. Other studies indicate that placement services graduates are aware of a great variety of occupations open to them and are anxious to continue their education to prepare for them. They typically have come to believe in working hard for future rewards and feel that being Indian does not hold them down. They graduate from high school in larger numbers than non-placement Native Americans, and the college grades of rural placement students are on a par with the grades of urban Indian students.

lightplanet.com/mormons/daily/education/indian_eom.htm

 

[why_me]

And on a mormon discussion site the blogger wrote about the Indian Student Placement Program and got many responses. Some good and some bad for the program. I include it here because it shows that this issue is discussed openly by mormons who inhabit the internet.

timesandseasons.org/index.php?p=1951

 

[truthsilence]

I agree. But when you read the site that I linked to, you will find that it is not so heartbreaking. Only the spin in this thread is heartbreaking.

Is it our “spin” that a person who became Prophet and President of the LDS church was describing the skin color of children changing to white and delightsome because they were living in LDS homes? Not heartbreaking?! There is no spin necessary. That is just plain sickening. Racism is sickening and heartbreaking.

 

[truthsilence]

And on a mormon discussion site the blogger wrote about the Indian Student Placement Program and got many responses. Some good and some bad for the program. I include it here because it shows that this issue is discussed openly by mormons who inhabit the internet.

timesandseasons.org/index.php?p=1951

Okay good, they’re talking about it. And the program has been abolished. I’m glad if some good came of it.

 

[why_me]

Okay good, they’re talking about it. And the program has been abolished. I’m glad if some good came of it.

At the time of the Indian Student Placement initiative, the american indian was not exactly receiving much support in our society. In fact, the lds church recognized that there was a problem and they acted upon it.

It had its good and bad points but still the lds church attempted to help Indian children to experience life off the reservation. Of course in modern times with the rise of postmodernism and multicultrualism, the program is now being criticized. But at that time it was a revolutionary program to help native american children.

From the blog of times and seasons:

I was surprised and distressed, then, to hear read on the air the following week a listener’s very negative response. The letter read, “We listened in growing horror [to the report on the Indian Placement Program.] What if blond-haired, blue-eyed children who’d been raised in the Mormon tradition had been spirited away by night, by bus, to be schooled in the Navajo way? Would those children have been taught that everything they already believed was evil, and that they were inherently sinful by their birth into a godless culture?” The unfairness of the criticism was breathtaking, and it prompted me to find the original story online to see what could have elicited this reponse. As it turns out, the perturbed listener could not have been listening very closely to the story, which provides at least a rudimentary explanation for why Native American peoples are of special interest to Mormons, not because of their “inherently sinful” nature or “godless culture” but precisely because of their divine nature and prophesied cultural potential. Furthermore, the story makes it clear that Native American children were not “spirited away,” but were placed in foster homes at the request of their natural parents, who often preferred the Program to the boarding school alternative.

 

[ibkc]

At the time of the Indian Student Placement initiative, the american indian was not exactly receiving much support in our society. In fact, the lds church recognized that there was a problem and they acted upon it.

It had its good and bad points but still the lds church attempted to help Indian children to experience life off the reservation. Of course in modern times with the rise of postmodernism and multicultrualism, the program is now being criticized. But at that time it was a revolutionary program to help native american children.

Hmmmm, I’m not sure how taking them away from their parents in the hope that their skin would turn white can be considered a wholly helpful or benign program. In fact, to me it seems rather cruel: “come live with us, and be white too!” I guess when viewed in the continuum of history, it’s a heck of a lot better than just killing or enslaving them all, but it is still far from something to be proud of, IMO.