Pros and Cons of Mormonism

[Jerusha]

I have a larger problem with LDS racist past than with LDS polygamist past.
I am sorry if we offended you (either as a non-racist or as a non-white person).
Charity, TOm

:dancing: Very nice dance around the issues.

Yes, the BOM is an inaccurate 'translation". And the core message is easily misunderstood, due to the cultural bias of 1829 New England.:coffeeread: That misunderstanding is perpetuated through the LDS culture.:hypno:

Yea, it doth distress my spirit because my honored ancestors mixed seed.

 

[why_me]

Yes, i .

Soc. So soon? I hope you will return so we may continue our discussion. We have much to talk about!

[/INDENT]

Now soc, you know and I know that you were playing with words trying to set a trap for poor Howe.

However, lets keep it simple: Who created the god that we worship?

 

[NewSeeker]

Who created the god that we worship?

No one. God has been God from all eternity. He is uncreated.

It doesn’t sound like Soc was playing with words. He was engaged in a Socratic dialogue with poor E. Howe, probing and asking the important questions. If, as Joseph Smith taught and declared to be doctrinal, God was not God from all eternity, but worked out his own salvation with fear and trembling, then it’s a fair question to seek to know God’s father, and his father’s father, and so forth until we finally reach the penultimate God, uncaused and eternally God. That is, unless there is no uncaused God, just an eternal chain of uncaused causers. Those are the only two possibilities that logically follow from Joseph Smith’s authoritative teaching. Remember, he taught it to be doctrinal and staked his prophetic authority on its truth; for Joseph, God was not God from all eternity but worked out his own kingdom with fear and trembling, just like us. Who then was God’s heavenly father (and Jesus’s heavenly grandfather?)? And so forth. I think Soc asks a fair question.

NS

 

[TOmNossor]

…

Howe. We are all the children and offspring of God the Father, whom we worship.*Soc. *Would you say he is the greatest of all the gods that other people worship?Howe. Yes, I would!Soc. And would you say that one should only worship the greatest of all the gods?*Howe. *Certainly. Would you?Soc. Yes, i think the greatest of all the Gods is the most worthy of my worship. The Father of Jesus Christ deserves more worship than i could possibly give Him. …*Howe. Ask any question you want about my God and i will try to answer it.Soc. Your god–is He eternal? I mean, has he always existed and will he always exist?Howe. He is eternal, but he has not always existed. He had a beginning like you and me.…*Soc. And this god and father of your god and father, was he always existing, or did he also have a beginning?Howe. He had a beginning, like our god.Soc. And he is still immortal and living?Howe. Yes, i think he must be.Soc. Then, are you not surprised to find you are worshiping the wrong god?Howe. What do you mean?Soc. What i mean is that there must be one God who is the ancestor of all other gods. For none of these gods, you said, created themselves. It stands to reason, then, that there is a first God who is the God and Father of all other gods and fathers.Howe. But that god is not our god.Soc. Do you think He should be?Howe. No. Why should I worship a god I do not know?Soc. Well, a moment ago you agreed with me that we should only worship the greatest of the gods.Howe. So?Soc. So, it stands to reason that the God and Father of all the gods and fathers is the greatest of all the gods, for His children worshipped Him, and they became gods. Their children worshipped the gods who worshipped the God and Father of all the other gods and fathers, and so on. Howe. Why does that make him greater? Soc. Well, He is greater in position, and more worthy of respect and adoration, as he is the Father of all the fathers. He must also be greater in nature, as only He is the God who is truly eternal, for He must have never had a beginning. Howe. How do you know he never had a beginning?Soc. If there was a time He never was, then there would be no gods, for no god has ever given birth to himself. This God, i believe, is the one most worthy of my worship, respect, obedience and love. Don’t you agree?Howe. No.Soc. Why not?Howe. I must go.Soc. So soon? I hope you will return so we may continue our discussion. We have much to talk about

SocratesforJesus,
Of course the theology I embrace does not fall to such questions and I am a faithful LDS.
Also, I am still waiting on a Catholic (or Protestant who believes Catholics have a proper understanding of the attributes of God) to engage the thread that is an even simpler failure of Catholic thought to stand up under reason (IMO).
I am sorry the young missionary did not recognize some of the things demanded by our scriptures. D&C 20:17 demands that God is “infinite and eternal the same unchanging God.” In addition to this D&C 93 also requires that God does not have some time before which He did not exist.

The message of the young missionary is “come and see.” This is the same message of the early church. The young missionary tells you that he has found God, he has communicated with God, he has developed a one-to-one relationship with God. The young missionary invites the potential investigator to the same relationship and all the certainty and beauty present.

I think our theology is superior to any other, but this is not the message we send out with our missionaries. If this was our message we would send educated theologians.

I think our history offers compelling reasons to be a LDS, but this is not the message we send out with our missionaries. If this was our message we would send educated historians.

I think Early Church history and Patristic Literature supports both our teaching of apostasy and our teaching of restoration, but this is not the message we send out with our missionaries. If this was our message we would send educated patristic scholars and historians.

Instead, we send young men. They teach that a one-on-one relationship with the God of the Universe is available. God stands at the door knocking, we but need to let Him in. For this message young men (and woman) with a testimony are sufficient. And these young men and woman grow in amazing ways as they share this message.

I come to various message boards to explain (in response to criticism) that in addition to this one-on-one relationship offered by missionaries, there are intellectual reasons to be a LDS.
Charity, TOm

 

[TOmNossor]

TOmNossor:
I have a larger problem with LDS racist past than with LDS polygamist past.
I am sorry if we offended you (either as a non-racist or as a non-white person).
Charity, TOm

Very nice dance around the issues.

Yes, the BOM is an inaccurate 'translation". And the core message is easily misunderstood, due to the cultural bias of 1829 New England. That misunderstanding is perpetuated through the LDS culture.

Yea, it doth distress my spirit because my honored ancestors mixed seed.

I am a little surprised by your response to me; but having not experienced racism perpetrated upon me, I suspect I cannot quite understand.
I am still sorry for the racism in the history of my church against black people and “mixed seed.”
I will pray for your distressed spirit.
Charity, TOm

 

[TOmNossor]

No one. God has been God from all eternity. He is uncreated.

It doesn’t sound like Soc was playing with words. He was engaged in a Socratic dialogue with poor E. Howe, probing and asking the important questions. If, as Joseph Smith taught and declared to be doctrinal, God was not God from all eternity, but worked out his own salvation with fear and trembling, then it’s a fair question to seek to know God’s father, and his father’s father, and so forth until we finally reach the penultimate God, uncaused and eternally God. That is, unless there is no uncaused God, just an eternal chain of uncaused causers. Those are the only two possibilities that logically follow from Joseph Smith’s authoritative teaching. Remember, he taught it to be doctrinal and staked his prophetic authority on its truth; for Joseph, God was not God from all eternity but worked out his own kingdom with fear and trembling, just like us. Who then was God’s heavenly father (and Jesus’s heavenly grandfather?)? And so forth. I think Soc asks a fair question.

NS

He should read Ostler’s book as this is precisely one of the arguments he addresses.
Charity, TOm

 

[why_me]

No one. God has been God from all eternity. He is uncreated.

It doesn’t sound like Soc was playing with words. He was engaged in a Socratic dialogue with poor E. Howe, probing and asking the important questions.

NS

Not exactly. When one engages in a socratic dialogue and when one initiates that dialogue, there can be a reason or preplaned stragedy for such a dialogue espcially if there is an intention. And soc had an intention.

How god was created is certainly a mystery since everything must be created. Hence, god had to be created. But how? The mormons do have an explanation of god as man but going down God’s geneology can be non-sensical.

 

[ibkc]

The mormons do have an explanation of god as man but going down God’s geneology can be non-sensical.

That is because the entire Mormon religion is non-sensical. Why follow a religion that does not make sense, not even within itself? If the whole system was consistent with itself, it wouldn’t matter so much if it made no sense to outsiders. Pastafarianism, The Church of the Sub-Genius and the new Jedi “religion” make more internal sense than Mormonism, and that is pretty pathetic.

 

[RebeccaJ]

How god was created is certainly a mystery since everything must be created. Hence, god had to be created. But how? The mormons do have an explanation of god as man but going down God’s geneology can be non-sensical.

God creates, He is not created.

Mormons don’t believe God creates, they believe their god organized existing “matter” into things. Who created this existing matter?

 

[why_me]

God creates, He is not created.

Mormons don’t believe God creates, they believe their god organized existing “matter” into things. Who created this existing matter?

Good question. God. But who created god? Was he created out of existing matter?

The mormon faith is revolutionary in its understanding of god. People may not agree with it but it is revolutionary. Even if JS was not a prophet, his understanding of god was both creative and ground breaking.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Good question. God. But who created god? Was he created out of existing matter?

The mormon faith is revolutionary in its understanding of god. People may not agree with it but it is revolutionary. Even if JS was not a prophet, his understanding of god was both creative and ground breaking.

God is uncreated.

**un·cre·at·ed : **Existing of itself; uncaused.

Smith was neither creative or breaking new ground and he utterly failed to understand God.

 

[majick275]

Good question. God. But who created god? Was he created out of existing matter?

The mormon faith is revolutionary in its understanding of god. People may not agree with it but it is revolutionary. Even if JS was not a prophet, his understanding of god was both creative and ground breaking.

hardly. JS ideas are on the nature of God are shared by many pagans. the greeks and romans believed in multiple gods who married and had children some of whom became gods themselves and others that did not. many primitive cultures have made God into their image much like joseph did.

 

[why_me]

God is uncreated.

Smith was neither creative or breaking new ground and he utterly failed to understand God.

Of course this is a bias statement made for reasons known to you. But when one steps away from biasness, they can see a revolutionary thinker in understanding the nature of god and in formulating a preposition of who is god is.

 

[why_me]

hardly. JS ideas are on the nature of God are shared by many pagans. the greeks and romans believed in multiple gods who married and had children some of whom became gods themselves and others that did not. many primitive cultures have made God into their image much like joseph did.

I don’t think that JS had much experiences in reading pagan works or the works of the greeks.He was a genius considering the man never went to high school or had any formal schooling.

 

[Jerusha]

I am still sorry for the racism in the history of my church against black people and “mixed seed.”
I will pray for your distressed spirit.
Charity, TOm

Perhaps you chose to misunderstand me. The Book of Mormon doth distress my spirit because my honored ancestors mixed seed. Pray instead for the LDS people who still take seriously the BOM’s curse upon those of color and those who mix racially and their descendants. It is not just historical.

My distressed spirit is healing, in terms of my outright rejection, and expresssion of that rejection, of 90% of the BOM. Let’s just say that most of that book is the most distressing garbage I have ever read. It is NOT an accurate representation of preColumbian American history. It contains VERY little historical truth, and has been proven to have been plagirized form multiple sources.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Of course this is a bias statement made for reasons known to you. But when one steps away from biasness, they can see a revolutionary thinker in understanding the nature of god and in formulating a preposition of who is god is.

reasons: agree with majick275, polytheism, paganism, and beliefs that a man can become a god, have been around a longggg time. On the creative side, Smith created nothing. He stole ideas from other people and written sources.

He did not understand the nature of God. In his lack of understanding he came up with something that is nothing but his own guesses, or wishes, or pure personal entertainment. Whatever you want to call it, it is not an Understanding of God.

 

[PaulDupre]

Will we be homoousian with God the Father? Why do you hold the veiw that you do?

You know full well I didn’t say anything even close to that. You are being deliberately deceptive as all Mormons are.

I used the analogy of the poker in the fire. The poker does not become the fire and is always a poker. It is always separate from the fire but takes on the fire’s heat. If that is too complex an analogy for you, then I have nothing more to say to you.

Paul

 

[PaulDupre]

Good question. God. But who created god? Was he created out of existing matter?

The mormon faith is revolutionary in its understanding of god. People may not agree with it but it is revolutionary. Even if JS was not a prophet, his understanding of god was both creative and ground breaking.

Revolutionary is not always good. Communism was revolutionary, too.

Paul

 

[majick275]

I don’t think that JS had much experiences in reading pagan works or the works of the greeks.He was a genius considering the man never went to high school or had any formal schooling.

I disagree with you. he had access to a library and the greek myths along with many other tales were available to him. few people then went through formal schooling as we know it today. JS parents had both taught at various times and joseph was neither illiterat nor unlearned. sidney Rigdon had taught as well and Joseph didn’t announce this doctrine until late in his presidency of the LDS church.

 

[Margarite]

Try this:
religionfacts.com/mormonism/comparison.htm
contenderministries.org/mormonism/comparison.php

I have not reviewed all of this, so I don’t know if it is in line with Catholicism, but it may help to see at least a Christian perspective.