Pros and Cons of Mormonism

[majick275]

it’s funny that as hard as whyme is struggling to show eternal progression as a completely new concept revealed by JS, tomnossor is working just as hard to show that it was taught universally in the bible and by the ECF’s and isn’t new at all.

 

[Jerusha]

it’s funny that as hard as whyme is struggling to show eternal progression as a completely new concept revealed by JS, tomnossor is working just as hard to show that it was taught universally in the bible and by the ECF’s and isn’t new at all.

Well, given the difficulty of pinning Jello to a wall, I know you are not really surprised. As Tom admits, LDS theology just isn’t a definite or coinsistent thing yet.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Well, given the difficulty of pinning Jello to a wall, I know you are not really surprised. As Tom admits, LDS theology just isn’t a definite or coinsistent thing yet.

It is whatever you want it to be, except BS, it just can’t be that.

 

[Jerusha]

 

[Jerusha]

It is whatever you want it to be, except BS, it just can’t be that.

 

[NewSeeker]

How god was created is certainly a mystery since everything must be created. Hence, god had to be created.

Whyme, you and TOm need to have a chat and hammer out what really is the truth bout God’s nature. You’re both LDS and you hold opposite views about God’s origin.

NS

 

[Cathlacostal]

Whyme, you and TOm need to have a chat and hammer out what really is the truth bout God’s nature. You’re both LDS and you hold opposite views about God’s origin.

NS

It’s interesting when mere mortals attempt to explain God. It’s doubly amusing watching a LDS attempt to defend his faith in Joseph Smith. Perhaps they could explain why LDS leaders paid the small fortune for the Salamander letter. I know it ended up being a forgery but why hide the letter before it was discovered to be fake. Could it be because it tore down the LDS doctrine? Does truth really need defending?
I’ll put my trust in God over any man. Especially one who comes with such a fantastic story speaking directly against God’s Word.
God was not created. Christ was born as a man but being God also not created. Nothing was created that was not created by Him.
And yet I must commend the LDS as they take care of their own. It’s the one thing we could learn from them.

 

[TOmNossor]

it’s funny that as hard as whyme is struggling to show eternal progression as a completely new concept revealed by JS, tomnossor is working just as hard to show that it was taught universally in the bible and by the ECF’s and isn’t new at all.

I think Whyme is trying to show that an eternal regress of God’s was a novel idea within Joseph Smith’s time and culture. Whyme I suspect would be happy to know that Irenaeus said something that might be linked to this. He said that we (he and those in his audience) should not speculate upon a God above God.

I believe that Whyme and I both embrace eternal progression. He seems to embrace an eternal regression of Gods, but I find this problematic and not well supported by our scriptures. Certainly there is a difference here.

I suspect that Whyme unlike Elder Howe recognizes that D&C 93 means that God the Father, and indeed everyone, was not created from non-existence and thus did not start.
This truth that semi-outside of God there are eternals is not unique to Joseph Smith, but was lost to Christianity in the middle of the 2nd century (St. Justin Martyr clearly believed in eternal matter). Again, it does seem to be something not in Joseph Smith’s environment.

To be honest, philosophically there are difficulties with postulating eternals and with postulating an eternal regress. I find the eternal regress to be more difficult and as I already mentioned I do not see it in the KFD (nobody has commented on Thomas Bullock yet).

I can sympathize with the concern about Jello to the wall.

I have been upfront that some folks believe as I do and some folks do not. I hope you will agree.
Charity, TOm

 

[TOmNossor]

Perhaps you chose to misunderstand me. The Book of Mormon doth distress my spirit because my honored ancestors mixed seed. Pray instead for the LDS people who still take seriously the BOM’s curse upon those of color and those who mix racially and their descendants. It is not just historical.

I really did misunderstand you if you were merely trying to attack a book I view as scripture. I am not sure if it is better to impute that to you than what I thought you were saying, but as you wish.

I am happy you are healing. I recognize that growth is possible for those who leave the CoJCoLDS.

I do in fact pray for those LDS who hold such views. One of the last talks given by President Hinckley before he died should give such folks pause too.

Anyway, as you should be aware (since we have dealt a little with BOM issues in the past), I do not agree that the BOM is as historically problematic as you seem to think it is.
Charity, TOm

 

[TOmNossor]

You know full well I didn’t say anything even close to that. You are being deliberately deceptive as all Mormons are.

I used the analogy of the poker in the fire. The poker does not become the fire and is always a poker. It is always separate from the fire but takes on the fire’s heat. If that is too complex an analogy for you, then I have nothing more to say to you.

Paul

I was asking a question and I expected you to answer no. How do you get that I am implying your answer is yes. I assume your answer is no.
Was Christ homoousian with us?
Charity, TOm

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

If the Book of Mormon is true Joseph Smith was a true prophet and you should go join one of the many churches which came out of his movement. If the Book of Mormon is not what Joseph Smith claimed it was, then Joseph Smith was a fraud and you can ignore him and anything he started.

Then, which of these reasons to reject Mormonism do you suggest is the best, Catholic?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Reasons to Reject Mormonism

1. 
   *]Mormonism is not really a Christian religion.
   *]Mormons think they can become gods.
   *]There is absolutely zero linguistic, archaeological or historical support for anything claimed in the Book of Mormon and other LDS documents.
   *]Enjoyment of all that the community has to offer you socially and spiritually is contingent on you receiving a spiritual witness that the Church is true.
   *]They deny almost every line of the Apostle’s Creed.
   *]There is absolutely no archaeological or historical evidence to back up anything that Joseph Smith ever uttered or wrote down.
   *]Joseph Smith was likely a conman who used a self-made papacy to garner power and sexual conquest.
   *]Racism is the prevalent attitude among LDS.
   *]There are cases in which people who depart from the church lose all their friendships.
   *]The Mormons require 10% of your money to enter the LDS Temple. If you don’t pay them the 10% you aren’t allowed to attend your children’s weddings or any other weddings in the temple for that matter.
   *]If you don’t pay them their 10% they claim you will not make it into heaven.
   *]The problem with Mormonism is the simple fact that it is pseudo-christian if that and it is polytheistic in nature.
   *]Mormons are no different from the Jehovah’s Witnesses in how they warp the bible.
   *]The amount of control over your life that you must cede to LDS leaders is great: You are told how and when to serve.
   *]Your compliance with LDS rules will be monitored and your ability to participate in various functions will be affected. (If you don’t show that you meet the criteria you will not be allowed in the temple for example.)
   *]There is absolutely no accounting for tithing money: It goes to Salt Lake City and is spent without letting members know where it goes.
   *]Joseph’s vision seems to be weighted above Jesus’ words.
   *]The continued revelation is at times historically contradictory.
   *]-]Divorce is encouraged if your partner leaves the LDS faith/-].
   *]Fallibility in moral character is allowable for prophets, for all have sinned. Fallibility in doctrinal utterances is unallowable. True prophets cannot utter false doctrine and remain prophets.
   *]Consider Brigham Young: He pronounced many false doctrines. If prophets can mistake speculation for doctrine, then how can they be trusted?
   *]While they oppose most abortions, Mormons don’t believe in the sanctity of life of the unborn.
   *]The one, single, only and perfect reason to irrefutably, undeniably and totally reject Mormonism can be summed up in the two most profound words: Holy Eucharist.
   *]LDS teachings are being disproved by science (for example, DNA evidence shows no Isrealite ancestry in Native Americans).
   *]They ban alcohol and caffeine.
   *]At one time, they taught that men can marry more than one woman.
   *]Some Mormons are not nice.
   *]Mormonism is extremely ethnocentric.
   *]Joseph Smith was a fraud. For example, he received revelations and compiled the Book of Commandments, but they were later changed in the Doctrine and Covenants.
   *]Mormons are not allowed to pray to Jesus or to the Holy Ghost, nor are they permitted to worship them.
   *]If you are Mormon, if/when you marry that perfect Mormon mate, in a Mormon temple, none of your non-Mormon family will be allowed to attend your wedding ceremony.
   *]The Mormon church sets your grooming standard and fashion selection.
   *]You can confidently claim anything (great apostasy; mark of Cain; plural marriage; eternal progression; baptism of the dead; many gods and goddesses) without worrying about PROVING it, because Mormons are the “the true church.”
   *]You can “re-translate” your “scripture” (the BoM and other soporific tomes) into “better” English as your theology changes.
   *]Every man a priest, every man a god. Need I say more?
   *]Women are beholden to menfolk (we Mormons rule planets!)
   *]Apparently the belief is that God is fallible.
   *]Mormon prophets had difficulties with ancient Egyptian.
   *]The Book of Mormon is a fraud, as Native Americans come from Asia, not Israel, and there are no Lamanites.
   *]There is not enough focus on Jesus Christ, and far too much focus on the Church being true, the BOM and LDS prophets being “true”.
   *]The goal of going to the temple to have your family sealed to you for eternity, and staying worthy enough to be able to do so. These things are emphasized and talked about far more than Jesus Christ is.
   *]It is a “blessings-for-me” theology and mentality. I pay my tithe, and I am given entrance to the temple. I think this puts too much focus on doing things, and even giving charitable donations for purposes of self rather than on simply helping those in need.
   *]The doctrine that God was once a man just like any other man; who lived on an earth and progressed to Godhood. This is in direct conflict with what God has said of himself. He said he is Eternally God. The Great I AM. He Who Is. Without beginning or end.
   *]You can believe Jesus or you can believe Joseph Smith. The contradiction is too great to believe them both.
   *]The Mormon “welfare system” helps only their own.
   *]Mormons do not consider the HS to be a person, or a member of the Trinity, but an “it”.
   *]Confession in the Mormon Church does not seem to be confidential.
   *]You don’t have to think for yourself. You simply believe what you are told to, no matter how bizarre it sounds.
   *]Its much easier to be a prophet. It doesn’t matter if it doesn’t come true, or we can fit events to suit your prophecy (even if they don’t really fit).
   *]If it’s wrong you can expect to be worshipping and believing incredibly blasphemous things, but that can probably be said for any religion.
   *]The big con is that it’s not true. That should be enough.
   *]Mormons believe that God was once like us - fallible, sinful, mortal, and was eventually exalted.

 

[majick275]

I think Whyme is trying to show that an eternal regress of God’s was a novel idea within Joseph Smith’s time and culture. Whyme I suspect would be happy to know that Irenaeus said something that might be linked to this. He said that we (he and those in his audience) should not speculate upon a God above God.

I believe that Whyme and I both embrace eternal progression. He seems to embrace an eternal regression of Gods, but I find this problematic and not well supported by our scriptures. Certainly there is a difference here.

I suspect that Whyme unlike Elder Howe recognizes that D&C 93 means that God the Father, and indeed everyone, was not created from non-existence and thus did not start.
This truth that semi-outside of God there are eternals is not unique to Joseph Smith, but was lost to Christianity in the middle of the 2nd century (St. Justin Martyr clearly believed in eternal matter). Again, it does seem to be something not in Joseph Smith’s environment.

To be honest, philosophically there are difficulties with postulating eternals and with postulating an eternal regress. I find the eternal regress to be more difficult and as I already mentioned I do not see it in the KFD (nobody has commented on Thomas Bullock yet).

I can sympathize with the concern about Jello to the wall.

I have been upfront that some folks believe as I do and some folks do not. I hope you will agree.
Charity, TOm

KFD when added to ongoing commentary by BY and even JFS shows a definite eternal regression as well. the always existent is the same fro all of us in LDS theology. we were intelligences then spirit children then mortal. so then Elohim has always existed and has always been elohim BUT only in the same sense that Tom has always existed and has always been the personage currently known as Tom. I believe the bible to emphatically monotheistic in both a trinitarian sense and also in an eternal sense. Mormon eternal progression requires an infinite henotheism. Let’s not forget the Temple ceremony in this either as it reinforces this. your cherry picking of ECF’s is in my opinion similar to me quoting Mconkie , Petersen and Pratt and thus not a strong case as it can only add a limited context. JS, BY, JFS speaking in general conference is supposed to by the same as the Lord speaking and thus beyond papal infallibility even. (since direct question and answer with God would assume perfect context)

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

No one. God has been God from all eternity. He is uncreated.

It doesn’t sound like Soc was playing with words. He was engaged in a Socratic dialogue with poor E. Howe, probing and asking the important questions. If, as Joseph Smith taught and declared to be doctrinal, God was not God from all eternity, but worked out his own salvation with fear and trembling, then it’s a fair question to seek to know God’s father, and his father’s father, and so forth until we finally reach the penultimate God, uncaused and eternally God. That is, unless there is no uncaused God, just an eternal chain of uncaused causers. Those are the only two possibilities that logically follow from Joseph Smith’s authoritative teaching. Remember, he taught it to be doctrinal and staked his prophetic authority on its truth; for Joseph, God was not God from all eternity but worked out his own kingdom with fear and trembling, just like us. Who then was God’s heavenly father (and Jesus’s heavenly grandfather?)? And so forth. I think Soc asks a fair question.

NS

Thank you, NS, for defending me. However, if i spoke lies, i’d rather be chastised! for i want no partnership with falsehood.

For the sake of the truth, then, i’d like to ask how it might be possible that there might be, as you suggested, “an eternal chain of uncaused causers.” Is this not an impossibility, or have i failed to understand something?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Now soc, you know and I know that you were playing with words trying to set a trap for poor Howe.

However, lets keep it simple: Who created the god that we worship?

Regarding your question, WhyMe, i believe NS gave as good an answer as i might give you.

Regarding your accusation that i trapped Elder Howe, i’d like to consider whether this is true or not. For if it is true, i might be guilty of a sin of which i should repent and ask forgiveness of God the Father.

In my defense i’d ask you, “Can anyone really be trapped by the truth?” For it seems to me that the truth has the opposite effect. Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ appears to agree, for He said of you or me:

“Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”(John 8:32) No, i do not believe that revealing the truth to Elder Howe trapped him. Rather than ensnare him, the truth might have liberated him from the lies, cutting him free from the shackles of falsehood that entangled him.

Of course, if what i spoke to him was a lie, i might possibly have trapped him (though not intentionally, of course, for i did not believe what i said to him to be untrue). Therefore, i think the task before you, WhyMe, is to point out just what i said to Elder Howe that was not true and explain why. Will you do so for me?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

SocratesforJesus,
Of course the theology I embrace does not fall to such questions and I am a faithful LDS.
Also, I am still waiting on a Catholic (or Protestant who believes Catholics have a proper understanding of the attributes of God) to engage the thread that is an even simpler failure of Catholic thought to stand up under reason (IMO).
I am sorry the young missionary did not recognize some of the things demanded by our scriptures. D&C 20:17 demands that God is “infinite and eternal the same unchanging God.” In addition to this D&C 93 also requires that God does not have some time before which He did not exist.

The message of the young missionary is “come and see.” This is the same message of the early church. The young missionary tells you that he has found God, he has communicated with God, he has developed a one-to-one relationship with God. The young missionary invites the potential investigator to the same relationship and all the certainty and beauty present.

I think our theology is superior to any other, but this is not the message we send out with our missionaries. If this was our message we would send educated theologians.

I think our history offers compelling reasons to be a LDS, but this is not the message we send out with our missionaries. If this was our message we would send educated historians.

I think Early Church history and Patristic Literature supports both our teaching of apostasy and our teaching of restoration, but this is not the message we send out with our missionaries. If this was our message we would send educated patristic scholars and historians.

Instead, we send young men. They teach that a one-on-one relationship with the God of the Universe is available. God stands at the door knocking, we but need to let Him in. For this message young men (and woman) with a testimony are sufficient. And these young men and woman grow in amazing ways as they share this message.

I come to various message boards to explain (in response to criticism) that in addition to this one-on-one relationship offered by missionaries, there are intellectual reasons to be a LDS.
Charity, TOm

TOm:

Please call me Soc (or s4J), as my friends here do!

I’m extremely grateful that you are here to help me see more clearly the truth of which the well-meaning, though ignorant, Mormon missionary Elder Howe and his friend were blind. You appear to have eyes to see the truth that many great religious thinkers have seen, that God always was and always will be.

That being said, you must also see the truth that some well-meaning, though ignorant, Mormon prophets failed to see. For some of these prophets, i’m told, taught that God was once a man as you and i now are. Do you recognize this teaching to be a lie?

 

[TOmNossor]

KFD when added to ongoing commentary by BY and even JFS shows a definite eternal regression as well. the always existent is the same fro all of us in LDS theology. we were intelligences then spirit children then mortal. so then Elohim has always existed and has always been elohim BUT only in the same sense that Tom has always existed and has always been the personage currently known as Tom. I believe the bible to emphatically monotheistic in both a trinitarian sense and also in an eternal sense. Mormon eternal progression requires an infinite henotheism. Let’s not forget the Temple ceremony in this either as it reinforces this. your cherry picking of ECF’s is in my opinion similar to me quoting Mconkie , Petersen and Pratt and thus not a strong case as it can only add a limited context. JS, BY, JFS speaking in general conference is supposed to by the same as the Lord speaking and thus beyond papal infallibility even. (since direct question and answer with God would assume perfect context)

I will not dispute that the idea of eternal regression exists for BY (and I suspect Joseph F. Smith). That being said, Joseph Fielding Smith and Gordon B. Hinckley, have both expressed that we do not know much about this (JFldS specifically references D&C 20:17 – God is “infinite and eternal, the same unchanging God”- and this was many decades ago).
The Bullock rendition of the KFD was not the one that dominated, but it fits with the John 5:19 context much better than do the other renditions. In the absence of this, there was likely to be misunderstanding, but folks like JFldS began addressing it (and his was an Improvement Era magazine not a Larry King Interview).

I am a monotheistic Social Trinitarian. The unity of God is a communion and we are invited into this communion. This is the witness of the ECF and that is not taking them out of context.
Here is my bold statement:
No pre-4th century ECF ever spoke of a limit upon the FINAL state of deified man.
Divinity is the communion present between the members of the Trinity. We are invited into this unity. As Joseph Smith pointed out, we will always owe our divinity to God. But, I say that this is the lasting divide. God is the deifier and we are the deified. We are not partially deified.

If I thought I had cherry picked the ECF, I would not do this.
You do not need to read Nibley, Norman, Bickmore, or … to see the ubiquitous-ness of this idea of deification and the exchange formula. Read Daniel Keating Deification and Grace.

Charity, TOm

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Catholics and other non-Mormons:

---

I’m surprised that so far #43 is the only reason given as the most important reason to reject Mormonism. Is there any non-Mormon who believes there is a better, more convincing, more worthy reason in the list for me to not become a Mormon?

If so, what number is it and why do you think this reason is superior to all the others?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Reasons to Reject Mormonism

1. 
   *]Mormonism is not really a Christian religion.
   *]Mormons think they can become gods.
   *]There is absolutely zero linguistic, archaeological or historical support for anything claimed in the Book of Mormon and other LDS documents.
   *]Enjoyment of all that the community has to offer you socially and spiritually is contingent on you receiving a spiritual witness that the Church is true.
   *]They deny almost every line of the Apostle’s Creed.
   *]There is absolutely no archaeological or historical evidence to back up anything that Joseph Smith ever uttered or wrote down.
   *]Joseph Smith was likely a conman who used a self-made papacy to garner power and sexual conquest.
   *]Racism is the prevalent attitude among LDS.
   *]There are cases in which people who depart from the church lose all their friendships.
   *]The Mormons require 10% of your money to enter the LDS Temple. If you don’t pay them the 10% you aren’t allowed to attend your children’s weddings or any other weddings in the temple for that matter.
   *]If you don’t pay them their 10% they claim you will not make it into heaven.
   *]The problem with Mormonism is the simple fact that it is pseudo-christian if that and it is polytheistic in nature.
   *]Mormons are no different from the Jehovah’s Witnesses in how they warp the bible.
   *]The amount of control over your life that you must cede to LDS leaders is great: You are told how and when to serve.
   *]Your compliance with LDS rules will be monitored and your ability to participate in various functions will be affected. (If you don’t show that you meet the criteria you will not be allowed in the temple for example.)
   *]There is absolutely no accounting for tithing money: It goes to Salt Lake City and is spent without letting members know where it goes.
   *]Joseph’s vision seems to be weighted above Jesus’ words.
   *]The continued revelation is at times historically contradictory.
   *]-]Divorce is encouraged if your partner leaves the LDS faith/-].
   *]Fallibility in moral character is allowable for prophets, for all have sinned. Fallibility in doctrinal utterances is unallowable. True prophets cannot utter false doctrine and remain prophets.
   *]Consider Brigham Young: He pronounced many false doctrines. If prophets can mistake speculation for doctrine, then how can they be trusted?
   *]While they oppose most abortions, Mormons don’t believe in the sanctity of life of the unborn.
   *]The one, single, only and perfect reason to irrefutably, undeniably and totally reject Mormonism can be summed up in the two most profound words: Holy Eucharist.
   *]LDS teachings are being disproved by science (for example, DNA evidence shows no Isrealite ancestry in Native Americans).
   *]They ban alcohol and caffeine.
   *]At one time, they taught that men can marry more than one woman.
   *]Some Mormons are not nice.
   *]Mormonism is extremely ethnocentric.
   *]Joseph Smith was a fraud. For example, he received revelations and compiled the Book of Commandments, but they were later changed in the Doctrine and Covenants.
   *]Mormons are not allowed to pray to Jesus or to the Holy Ghost, nor are they permitted to worship them.
   *]If you are Mormon, if/when you marry that perfect Mormon mate, in a Mormon temple, none of your non-Mormon family will be allowed to attend your wedding ceremony.
   *]The Mormon church sets your grooming standard and fashion selection.
   *]You can confidently claim anything (great apostasy; mark of Cain; plural marriage; eternal progression; baptism of the dead; many gods and goddesses) without worrying about PROVING it, because Mormons are the “the true church.”
   *]You can “re-translate” your “scripture” (the BoM and other soporific tomes) into “better” English as your theology changes.
   *]Every man a priest, every man a god. Need I say more?
   *]Women are beholden to menfolk (we Mormons rule planets!)
   *]Apparently the belief is that God is fallible.
   *]Mormon prophets had difficulties with ancient Egyptian.
   *]The Book of Mormon is a fraud, as Native Americans come from Asia, not Israel, and there are no Lamanites.
   *]There is not enough focus on Jesus Christ, and far too much focus on the Church being true, the BOM and LDS prophets being “true”.
   *]The goal of going to the temple to have your family sealed to you for eternity, and staying worthy enough to be able to do so. These things are emphasized and talked about far more than Jesus Christ is.
   *]It is a “blessings-for-me” theology and mentality. I pay my tithe, and I am given entrance to the temple. I think this puts too much focus on doing things, and even giving charitable donations for purposes of self rather than on simply helping those in need.
   *]**The doctrine that God was once a man just like any other man; who lived on an earth and progressed to Godhood. This is in direct conflict with what God has said of himself. He said he is Eternally God. The Great I AM. He Who Is. Without beginning or end. **
   *]You can believe Jesus or you can believe Joseph Smith. The contradiction is too great to believe them both.
   *]The Mormon “welfare system” helps only their own.
   *]Mormons do not consider the HS to be a person, or a member of the Trinity, but an “it”.
   *]Confession in the Mormon Church does not seem to be confidential.
   *]You don’t have to think for yourself. You simply believe what you are told to, no matter how bizarre it sounds.
   *]Its much easier to be a prophet. It doesn’t matter if it doesn’t come true, or we can fit events to suit your prophecy (even if they don’t really fit).
   *]If it’s wrong you can expect to be worshipping and believing incredibly blasphemous things, but that can probably be said for any religion.
   *]The big con is that it’s not true. That should be enough.
   *]Mormons believe that God was once like us - fallible, sinful, mortal, and was eventually exalted.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Mormons and those considering Mormonism:

I’m astonished none of you have mentioned which of the reasons in the list is the best reason for me to become a Mormon. Does anyone have an opinion as to which reason i should consider before i make my decision?