Pros and Cons of Mormonism

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steve_b said:
If I understand what you’re asking,

Why do I believe Mormonism is a man made relgion?

Simply that Joseph Smith was the founder 178 years ago…
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Yes, Steve, that he was! Yet, a Mormon would say that Mormonism was not Joseph Smith’s idea, it was God’s, and that the Spirit of God revealed the Book of Mormon to him.

I’m just curious what your answer to that objection might be. If you do not have an answer, yet, join the club! I’m still thinking this through myself.

🙂
 
TOmNossor said:
…3. Being poor at discerning spiritual things, I preface this with the fact that this is perhaps purely an intellectual opinion. I do not believe you are seeking with an open heart or an open mind. When I saw your list unfolding and watched the way you responded, I felt cheated because I got sucked into this thread.
I do believe that if you were to become convinced that the CoJCoLDS was God’s church you would become a LDS. If I became convinced that Reformed Baptists of the James White variety were the true followers of God, I would be a Reformed Baptist; but short of an epiphany on the order of a burning bush or Abraham’s certain knowledge he was to kill Isaac, I cannot fathom I could embrace this. So I could make lists and claim my willingness to follow God, but since James White and indeed no one can produce a burning bush it would still be all up to God. It would be a waste of time from James White to try to convince me that Reformed Baptists held all the answers, but I can still say that if I thought they did I would become one. If I had the slightest indication that Reformed Baptists might hold all the answers I would dig back into The Potter’s Freedom, but unwilling to waste time on this it would be unfair if I were to convinced James White to be my tutor.

I do not need nor deserve the title of “major TOm” (space man or not), I do not need nor deserve to be thought modest (what you called modesty was realism). I do not need nor deserve to be called an expert in Aramaic and Greek (and since I am not and do not think I offered evidence that I was, I wonder if you were not being purely sarcastic).
…
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It was not my intention to offend you, TOm. I think sometimes i become too familiar with people too quickly, and my fault is often that i forget how easily angered some people are.

I hope you will accept my apology and understand that i will be more careful with my words. If you would be so good as to continue the conversation, i would be grateful. If you do not, i will not find fault with you.

If you do not accuse each other, God will not accuse you. If you have no accuser you will enter heaven. What many people call sin is not sin; I do many things to break down superstition, and I will break it down.

–Joseph Smith
 
TOmNossor said:
… So my offer to recommend books based on your issues and my extra thoughts, stands; but I cannot be your LDS genie. If you read a few books perhaps we can discuss your thoughts on them.
Charity, TOm
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The best way to obtain truth and wisdom is not to ask from books, but to go to God in prayer, and obtain divine teaching.

–Joseph Smith
I suppose the only thing i might add to Mr. Smith’s words are that after going to God in prayer and before, one should go to one who knows the truth and has been set free and who freely gives it to all who will listen. Are you such a one, TOm?

If I had not actually got into this work and been called of God, I would back out. But I cannot back out: I have no doubt of the truth.

–Joseph Smith

🤷
 
why_me said:
Difficult to describe. I can say that it was overpowering. I was in my room praying about the book when suddenly I was overcome by a tremendous feeling deep within me. I have never forgotten it and it has kept me at the outer edges of mormonism for over 30 years. I will never deny that feeling. Nor will I ever claim it to be a ‘warm fuzzy’.

At that time, I considered it to be truth manifesting to me. And I also remember my lds baptism very well. It was also a tremendous feeling of the holy ghost’s pressence. And I can not deny that truth either.

To deny the holy ghost is a terrible sin in the lds faith and I will never hopefully commit that sin even if I were to commit myself totally to the catholic faith.
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WhyMe:

I suppose i’d ask you the same question Jesus asked His closest friends: “You are not going to leave me too, are you?” Not that i’m here to teach you, but i fear having no one to teach me. In hope that you care enough to answer, i’ll make this request of you again:

In my desire to know more about your personal encounters with God, i suppose i could pry, but this might be rude. I think instead i will offer a few quotes by those who say they had encounters with God. Please let me know if any of these experiences are similar to your own:

(A) The Holy Spirit had continually shown me that my real welfare for time and eternity depended upon the surrender of my life to the services of God. After a long controversy I made this submission, cast myself on His mercy, received the assurance of His pardon, and gave myself up to His service with all my heart. The hour, the place, and many other particulars of this glorious transaction are recorded indelibly on my memory.(B) My soul is filled with joy unspeakable. I seem to swim in a flood of glory, which God pours down on me.(C) No words can express the wonderful love that was shed abroad in my heart. I wept aloud with joy and love; and I do not know but I should say, I literally bellowed out the unutterable gushings of my heart. The waves came over me, and over me, one after the other, until I recollect I cried out, “I shall die if these waves continue to pass over me.” I said, “Lord, I cannot bear anymore”; yet I had no fear of death.(D) After I had retired to the place where I had previously designed to go, having looked around me, and finding myself alone, I kneeled down and began to offer up the desires of my heart to God. I had scarcely done so, when immediately I was seized upon by some power which entirely overcame me, and had such an astonishing influence over me as to bind my tongue so that I could not speak.

(E) About a quarter before nine, while he was describing the change God works in the heart through faith in Christ, I felt my heart strangely warmed. I felt I did trust in Christ alone for salvation; and an assurance was given me that He had taken away my sins, even mine, and saved me from the law of sin and death.

(F) In the morning, I felt my soul hungering and thirsting after righteousness. In the forenoon, while I was looking ohn the sacred elements, and thinking the Jesus Christ would soon be “set forth crucified before me,” my soul was filled with light and love, so that I was almost in ecstasy. My body was so weak I could hardly stand. I felt at the same time an exceeding tenderness, and most fervent love towards all mandkind; so that my soul, and all the powers it seemed, as it were, to melt into softness and sweetness. This love and joy cast out fear, and my soul longed for perfect grace and glory.(G) And as my faithful testimony both to their life and doctrine, I declare, and be it known to all that ever knew me, that when the unspeakable riches of God’s love visited me, by the call of His glorious light, from the dark practices, wandering notions, and vain conversation of this polluted world, and that my heart was influenced thereby, and consequently disposed for the more intimate and sincere receptions of it; those very habits which I once judged impossible, whilst here, to have relinquished, and did allow myself a liberty therein, because not openly gross or scandalous, became not only burdensome, and by the light were manifested to be of another nature than that which I was called to participation of; but in my faithful adherence to its holy counsel and instructions, I was immediately endued with power that gave dominion over them.(H) O, how great has been the mercy of God towards me! How often, when I was almost overcome, has He been my deliverer! Sometimes my Passions assail me as a whirlwind; but God sent forth His arrows and dissipated them. The attack was often renewed, but God was still my support. By degrees I was weaned from everything earthly, and adhered to God alone. Then, I experienced how sweet, how full of mercy God is to those who truly love Him. O my God! How merciful has Thou been to me!🙂
 
I honestly want to know why this is true:

**The most important reason to accept Mormonism:

**Reason 18.

God gives a personal witness to people that the Book of Mormon is true and His desire is for them to become Mormons, and He communicates this desire to them through the Holy Spirit.
 
TOmNossor said:
I do mean proven, at least beyond the ability of anyone I have ever found to refute or show a whole in his logic. (we are at about 5-6 and counting would you like to be #7)
I cannot find a single flaw in his reasoning. Ostler cannot find a flaw in his conclusion (he changes a few words for a reason I do not quite grasp). Almeida knows of nobody who has shown any flaw in his reasoning (I asked him).

I do not do Almeida justice here, but I speak about it a little later on in the thread:
http://www.defensorveritatis.net/?p=861#comments

This is a far more complex problem than the simple ones I offer of Catholics to solve in the thread I linked NewSeeker to, but since I believe REASON is important, I think there needs to be some solution.
I beleive love is a choice. If Almeida is correct AND God created ex nihilo, we do not choose between loving God and not loving God because only one choice is really a possible future for us.

Charity, TOm
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I read the thread you pointed me to. The first major flaw I see in your reasoning is that you fail to distinguish between the creation of our planet and the creation of matter itself. All of the scripture that you point to as supporting creation ex materia concern the creation of planet earth, not the universe in toto.

All reasonable people would agree that the earth is composed of matter that is much older than the earth itself. That is, the universe is far older than the earth. So when the ancients posited that God “organized” the world (not the universe), which was at first formless and void, they were scientifically correct.

So talking about the creation of the earth does nothing to advance the discussion of first cause - the origin of primordial matter itself, which the Mormons avoid all together by simply stating that matter has always existed. You can see, I’m sure, that this in no way solves the problem, it just regresses it a bit. Everything had to have come from some source. It is much more sensible, in my view, to believe that God is that source. But that is because I believe that God has always been God and is omnipotent. Also He has made this known to me through personal revelation.

Mormons, on the other hand, have been taught that God was not always God and is not omnipotent, and that gods evolve from existing “intelligences” within the universe rather than that God created the universe and exists independent of it.

This seems ridiculous to me. Only the all-powerful and ever-existing God (the real one) can be uncaused cause of matter and the laws that govern it. Dumb matter cannot.

I will look up Almeida and read his thesis, but if it is no more comprehensive than your exposition of it, I can’t promise to be impressed.

Paul
 
Socrates4Jesus said:
I honestly want to know why this is true:

**The most important reason to accept Mormonism:

**Reason 18.

God gives a personal witness to people that the Book of Mormon is true and His desire is for them to become Mormons, and He communicates this desire to them through the Holy Spirit.
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The most important reason to accept Mormonism is that it is true. That means that essentially there are no other “important” or “unimportant” reasons.

zerinus
 
zerinus said:
The most important reason to accept Mormonism is that it is true. That means that essentially there are no other “important” or “unimportant” reasons.

zerinus
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Thank you, Zerinus. 🙂

Reasons to Accept Mormonism

  1. *]There is a strong social support system among active members of the Latter Day Saints Church.
    *]The LDS wards do a better job at creating a sense of belonging than some other religious groups.
    *]Mormons emphasize strong, close, loving family ties.
    *]The LDS welfare system to help those in need is without peer.
    *]There are many well-meaning, good Mormons out there and they make great relatives and neighbors.
    *]In exchange for obeying the leaders of the LDS church, you get the social safety net.
    *]Properly understood LDS theology is Biblical theology.
    *]There are numerous problems with the BOM that have been used to discredit it, but on the whole I believe the answers to the problems and the positive evidences weight strongly in favor of the BOM.
    *]Early Christian history offers much reason to see an “Apostasy of Authority” and to see a restoration of various doctrines found within the LDS church.
    *]The Bible supports the LDS view of the Trinity.
    *]The Bible teaches, and the early church acknowledges, that men can actually become gods.
    *]The small group with a mission status promotes community.
    *]Church programs for kids are very good.
    *]LDS teens engage in less premarital sex, drink less, attend church more, believe in God more, and have a greater degree of positive feelings toward parents.
    *]The church, especially under the administration of the late Gordon B. Hinckley, has worked hard to mainstream its image and has deemphasized to a considerable degree the idea that Mormons are a “peculiar people”.
    *]LDS don’t seem to take their faith for granted.
    *]Spencer W. Kimball said he received a revelation from God that ALL worthy male members of the LDS church (including Blacks, who were previously denied ordination to the Priesthood due to skin color), should now be allowed to hold the LDS Priesthood.
    *]God gives a personal witness to people that His desire is for them to be Mormons and communicates this desire to them.
    *]The Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints has an intellectual strength.
    *]It does not matter how many reason there are to reject Mormonism as long as there is at least one right reason to accept it.
    *]Mormons do a better job of actually living like Christians than most Christians. Mormons encourage large families and family togetherness.
    *]They have a strong social support system kinda like Catholics did in the 1800’s.
    *]The most important reason to accept Mormonism is that it is true. That means that essentially there are no other “important” or “unimportant” reasons.

    👍
 
Socrates4Jesus said:
Thank you, Zerinus. 🙂

Reasons to Accept Mormonism

  1. *]There is a strong social support system among active members of the Latter Day Saints Church.
    *]The LDS wards do a better job at creating a sense of belonging than some other religious groups.
    *]Mormons emphasize strong, close, loving family ties.
    *]The LDS welfare system to help those in need is without peer.
    *]There are many well-meaning, good Mormons out there and they make great relatives and neighbors.
    *]In exchange for obeying the leaders of the LDS church, you get the social safety net.
    *]Properly understood LDS theology is Biblical theology.
    *]There are numerous problems with the BOM that have been used to discredit it, but on the whole I believe the answers to the problems and the positive evidences weight strongly in favor of the BOM.
    *]Early Christian history offers much reason to see an “Apostasy of Authority” and to see a restoration of various doctrines found within the LDS church.
    *]The Bible supports the LDS view of the Trinity.
    *]The Bible teaches, and the early church acknowledges, that men can actually become gods.
    *]The small group with a mission status promotes community.
    *]Church programs for kids are very good.
    *]LDS teens engage in less premarital sex, drink less, attend church more, believe in God more, and have a greater degree of positive feelings toward parents.
    *]The church, especially under the administration of the late Gordon B. Hinckley, has worked hard to mainstream its image and has deemphasized to a considerable degree the idea that Mormons are a “peculiar people”.
    *]LDS don’t seem to take their faith for granted.
    *]Spencer W. Kimball said he received a revelation from God that ALL worthy male members of the LDS church (including Blacks, who were previously denied ordination to the Priesthood due to skin color), should now be allowed to hold the LDS Priesthood.
    *]God gives a personal witness to people that His desire is for them to be Mormons and communicates this desire to them.
    *]The Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints has an intellectual strength.
    *]It does not matter how many reason there are to reject Mormonism as long as there is at least one right reason to accept it.
    *]Mormons do a better job of actually living like Christians than most Christians. Mormons encourage large families and family togetherness.
    *]They have a strong social support system kinda like Catholics did in the 1800’s.
    *]The most important reason to accept Mormonism is that it is true. That means that essentially there are no other “important” or “unimportant” reasons.

    👍
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  1. No! Please remove my “reason” from your “list”. Your entire list of “Pros” and “Cons” is garbage. There is only one “reason” to accept Mormonism, and that is that it is true. As for the “Cons,” there aren’t any, period. I don’t want my “reason” to be mixed up with that trash.

    zerinus
 
zerinus said:
The most important reason to accept Mormonism is that it is true. That means that essentially there are no other “important” or “unimportant” reasons.

zerinus
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**The most important reasons to accept Mormonism:

**Reason 18.

God gives a personal witness to people that the Book of Mormon is true and His desire is for them to become Mormons, and He communicates this desire to them through the Holy Spirit.

Reason 23.

The most important reason to accept Mormonism is that it is true. That means that essentially there are no other “important” or “unimportant” reasons.
One of the grand fundamental principles of Mormonism is to receive truth, let it come from whence it may.

–Joseph Smith

I sincerely want to know how to receive this truth, Zerinus. I’m not sure if you are willing to try to explain it to me.
 
TOmNossor said:
“Everything except” is not everything. That is my point.
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The pope does possess all the authority that Peter possessed. That is what Catholics believe. That has nothing to do with whether or not God chooses at various times to reveal something. That takes nothing or adds nothing to the office. The authority resides in Peter’s office, which we call “the chair of Peter.” Though it took time for the church to establish the concrete structure it has today, even the early church understood that Peter’s successor possessed Peter’s authority.
Many reasons for Roman Primacy were offered in the early church.
First was the dual apostolic foundation of Peter and Paul.
At some places the importance of the city of Rome was offered as a reason for the Church of Rome to be prime.
Ultimately Catholics point to Peter as the reason the Bishop or Rome is prime, but even as the authority of the Bishop of Rome grew (read Rise of the Papacy by Catholic author Eno) never did the Pope become equal to Peter.
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I’m not sure what is implied by that last sentence, but the Church most certainly believes the pope to have the same authority as Peter, and that’s what really matters.
God could choose to run his church with Supernatural Public Revelation delivered to Abraham and other Old Testament Prophets. Then run his church with Supernatural Public Revelation delivered to Peter.
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I think the LDS view of this is flawed. First, God revealed things to his prophets at certain times for certain reasons, but most of the time revelation was not pouring in, yet there was still a church with authority present. Naturally, everything the bible includes is by definition revelation, which is why it was recorded in the first place, but most of the time the church went on without recording anything. So to say that a requirement exists for continual revelation is really not an accurate depiction of how things worked in the old or new testaments. He ran (and runs) His Church by first establishing it in a supernatural way and then giving it the protection of the Holy Spirit to guide it into all truth, as the New Testament says.

Second, I don’t like the LDS view of the Church as one of many dispensations, as if the previous ones failed or something. That is not accurate. All of God’s dealings with the Old Testament world were a preparation for what would happen at the time of Christ. The Church established at Pentecost was a fulfillment of, not the next version in line of, Israel. First God established a marital covenant with Adam and Eve, then a familial covenant with Noah, then a tribal covenant with Abraham, then a national covenant with Moses, then a national kingdom covenant with David, and finally a worldwide kingdom covenant through Jesus. Salvation history is nothing less than the gradual building up and expanding of God’s family on earth. The worldwide family of God is the Catholic Church, which has the duty of preaching to all nations and adding more “family members.” One out of every six human beings is a baptized Catholic, practicing or not. I don’t see how the Church could get there without the protection of the Holy Spirit. Not bad but still a lot of work to go.
 
zerinus said:
No! Please remove my “reason” from your “list”. Your entire list of “Pros” and “Cons” is garbage. There is only one “reason” to accept Mormonism, and that is that it is true. As for the “Cons,” there aren’t any, period. I don’t want my “reason” to be mixed up with that trash.

zerinus
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I understand.

Reasons to Accept Mormonism

  1. *]There is a strong social support system among active members of the Latter Day Saints Church.
    *]The LDS wards do a better job at creating a sense of belonging than some other religious groups.
    *]Mormons emphasize strong, close, loving family ties.
    *]The LDS welfare system to help those in need is without peer.
    *]There are many well-meaning, good Mormons out there and they make great relatives and neighbors.
    *]In exchange for obeying the leaders of the LDS church, you get the social safety net.
    *]Properly understood LDS theology is Biblical theology.
    *]There are numerous problems with the BOM that have been used to discredit it, but on the whole I believe the answers to the problems and the positive evidences weight strongly in favor of the BOM.
    *]Early Christian history offers much reason to see an “Apostasy of Authority” and to see a restoration of various doctrines found within the LDS church.
    *]The Bible supports the LDS view of the Trinity.
    *]The Bible teaches, and the early church acknowledges, that men can actually become gods.
    *]The small group with a mission status promotes community.
    *]Church programs for kids are very good.
    *]LDS teens engage in less premarital sex, drink less, attend church more, believe in God more, and have a greater degree of positive feelings toward parents.
    *]The church, especially under the administration of the late Gordon B. Hinckley, has worked hard to mainstream its image and has deemphasized to a considerable degree the idea that Mormons are a “peculiar people”.
    *]LDS don’t seem to take their faith for granted.
    *]Spencer W. Kimball said he received a revelation from God that ALL worthy male members of the LDS church (including Blacks, who were previously denied ordination to the Priesthood due to skin color), should now be allowed to hold the LDS Priesthood.
    *]God gives a personal witness to people that His desire is for them to be Mormons and communicates this desire to them.
    *]The Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints has an intellectual strength.
    *]It does not matter how many reason there are to reject Mormonism as long as there is at least one right reason to accept it.
    *]Mormons do a better job of actually living like Christians than most Christians. Mormons encourage large families and family togetherness.
    *]They have a strong social support system kinda like Catholics did in the 1800’s.
    *]-]The most important reason to accept Mormonism is that it is true. That means that essentially there are no other “important” or “unimportant” reasons./-]
 
Socrates4Jesus said:
**The most important reasons to accept Mormonism:

**Reason 18.

God gives a personal witness to people that the Book of Mormon is true and His desire is for them to become Mormons, and He communicates this desire to them through the Holy Spirit.

Reason 23.

The most important reason to accept Mormonism is that it is true. That means that essentially there are no other “important” or “unimportant” reasons.
One of the grand fundamental principles of Mormonism is to receive truth, let it come from whence it may.

–Joseph Smith

I sincerely want to know how to receive this truth, Zerinus. I’m not sure if you are willing to try to explain it to me.
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I don’t need to; Jesus did:

"Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth" (John 16:13).

That is how.

zerinus
 
TOmNossor said:
No, this is not what you believe. Paul was not among the twelve yet he could write scripture and even offer correction (of some value) to Peter. If all that was needed was the 12 eye-witnesses, numerous books in our Bible could have been left out. They were not. Even Paul possessed abilities not claimed by Catholics to exist within the Bishop of Rome.
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I don’t believe the original poster limited his comments to the original 12. We of course believe Paul was an apostle of Jesus Christ, and did receive a very special witness of Christ on the road to Demascus. So Paul met the same criteria as the original 12 when it comes to a witness of Christ and the ability to write scripture. We do believe that public revelation ended with John’s Revelation, and since no revelation was recorded after that I think history demonstrates that’s an accurate portrayal of the truth. Mormons don’t deny that public revelation ended with John, they merely say that God stopped giving it because there was no one worthy to give it to. That doesn’t make sense to me when you look at the great ECF’s who were willing to (and did) die for Christ and His Church in large numbers, but Mormon’s are entitled to their viewpoint. The loss of authority in the Church so early remains a great mystery to me and no Mormon has ever been able to adequately explain it. It just makes no sense.

Tom, you seem to have spent some time studying the early Church. How can you possibly come away with the notion that it completely apostatized so quickly given the history that is available? Many Protestant ministers ended up becoming Catholics (foresaking their livelihood by the way) precisely because they started studying that history.
 
Cons: Sitting for an hour and 10 minutes or so, in the pews, with little action, causing people to fall asleep, and/or circulation fall off, causing the need of people like me to need to get out of the place and run around to get my circulation back. I am a runner by nature, and I have had adrenal problems for most of my 47 years.

Having been Mormon for most of my life, I find that Mormon meetings are boring without much of any standing up, or kneeling, and no uttering of prayers in unison, by the congregation, so the people tend to just fall alseep, in the mormon meetings.

Having had adrenal problems much of my life, has caused me to be a non-church goer, for several years now, but occasionally I will attend a Mass.
 
zerinus said:
I don’t need to; Jesus did:

"Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth" (John 16:13).

That is how.

zerinus
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If you believe that promise, and you believe that the Spirit of Truth came at Pentecost as the bible records, then how can you claim that the Spirit did not lead the Church into all truth, but allowed it to totally apostatize?

Your reasoning does not pass the smell test.

Paul
 
zerinus said:
I don’t need to; Jesus did:

"Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth" (John 16:13).That is how.

zerinus
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12"I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you. 15All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you."

*(John 16)*Zerinus:

I hope you will overlook my using a more modern translation than the King James, but this one is easier for me to understand. Perhaps if i start with what i know, the Holy Ghost will show me what i do not know. Let me state what i know from this passage, and i hope you will please tell me if i’m in error:

  1. *]Jesus had more to say to his disciples that they were not ready to hear.
    *]But after He died and rose from the dead, the Holy Spirit, would guide them into the truth.
    *]The Holy Spirit would speak to them.
    *]The Holy Spirit would tell them what the Father has to say to them.
    *]The Holy Spirit would predict the future for them.
    *]The Holy Spirit would give glory to Jesus.
    *]The Holy Spirit would reveal to them what Jesus and the Father knows.
    Am i correct thus far?
 
zerinus said:
The most important reason to accept Mormonism is that it is true. That means that essentially there are no other “important” or “unimportant” reasons.

zerinus
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But its not true because the BoM has been changed several times. How can it possibly be true?

How can the holy spirit flow through you from something that keeps being changed?

Its not for mistranslation purposes because you dont have the original text, you have to rely on the original translator (and his help) getting it right the first time around. The would be a question of faith, but apparently you dont have faith because you keep changing his work (even he didnt have faith in his own translating skills because even he did the same thing).

Perhaps God gives visions to people on where the BoM is wrong and they correct them, but that would mean that God got it wrong the first time around and Moroni (moron, he he) wasnt doing his job.

It doesnt seem to be a question of faith, because its already been proven that there isnt any.
 
Socrates4Jesus said:
12"I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you. 15All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you."

*(John 16)*Zerinus:

I hope you will overlook my using a more modern translation than the King James, but this one is easier for me to understand. Perhaps if i start with what i know, the Holy Ghost will show me what i do not know. Let me state what i know from this passage, and i hope you will please tell me if i’m in error:

  1. *]Jesus had more to say to his disciples that they were not ready to hear.
    *]But after He died and rose from the dead, the Holy Spirit, would guide them into the truth.
    *]The Holy Spirit would speak to them.
    *]The Holy Spirit would tell them what the Father has to say to them.
    *]The Holy Spirit would predict the future for them.
    *]The Holy Spirit would give glory to Jesus.
    *]The Holy Spirit would reveal to them what Jesus and the Father knows.
    Am i correct thus far?
Click to expand...

  1. Get to your point. I don’t like “Socratizing”.

    zerinus
 
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