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michaelp
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How do you or I interpret “invincibly ignorant”? In other words, how does one know if he or she is invincibly ignorant? This seems to be essential. Is there consensus on what this means?
Michael
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Michael
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JGC
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I would be very careful about judging who will or will not be saved.
If you think about it logically many protestants will not / would not have have a true picture of what the Catholic Church is. They will have been given false information. Or people may never have heard of the Church or Christianity. The Church is very clear on this - it is possible for these people to be saved. If you think logically you will see your opinion of very few if any is quite frankly, nonsense.I refer you back to what the Church teaches - stated in the Catechism - see my earlier posts.
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JGC
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Again, totally contrary to Church teaching, see the Catechism, a sure norm for teaching the faith.
I’m not having a go at you personally but as a former protestant you need to know your posts contain information contrary to Church teaching and your attitude, as other posters have noted is very off putting to protestants.
If you really want to ‘destroy’ protestantism, start learning Church teaching, adopt an attitude with some humility and then go talk to our seperated brethern.
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JKirkLVNV
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Is it completely false or does it lack the fullness of truth? The first would seem to contradict the Catechism, the normative teaching document of our faith. The second would ring true with the Catechism. I’m not defending Protestantism, I wouldn’t go back for anything. But I know godly, faithful Protestants, some of whom were my own beloved family members, who sincerely loved and followed Jesus and were in charity with the world. Were they invincibly ignorant? Well, you should have heard some of the mis-information regarding the Catholic Church that came out of their mouths! I didn’t realize it was ignorant until I began my pilgrimage to the Church, but boy, do I realize it now! We shouldn’t take our leaf from individual apologists like Madrid, we should take our leaf from our Pope, the Magisterium, and our Bishops. Of course, they should come back. Jesus said, “If I be lifted up, I will draw all men unto me.” That’s the best way to proselytize. Triumphalism is contrary to the nature of Jesus that is revealed in the Evangels.
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JGC
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Again the Catechism sums it up
847 …
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337
848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338
scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p3.htm#I
And ‘one does not know’. In every individuals case it will be known only to God.
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michaelp
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OK. But “through no fault of their own” sounds to me like those who do ever have a chance to hear about the Catholic churches doctrine (e.g. those who have not heard because they did not get a chance"). But what does this “invincibly ignorant” mean? I hear it all the time, but I still don’t understand how to interpret it. I, myself, have heard about the Catholic faith for years and I think that I understand it better than most Catholics themselve (although not like those on this forum
), but am not a Catholic. Since this is the case, I do not fall as “those who through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church” does this mean that I am not invincibly ignorant and therefore am not covered by this “clause”?Any help is appreciated.
Michael
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Lisa4Catholics
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All true knowledge and understanding is a gift from God as well and as far as you searching God’s will your doing that.God Bless,LisaOK. But “through no fault of their own” sounds to me like those who do ever have a chance to hear about the Catholic churches doctrine (e.g. those who have not heard because they did not get a chance"). But what does this “invincibly ignorant” mean? I hear it all the time, but I still don’t understand how to interpret it. I, myself, have heard about the Catholic faith for years and I think that I understand it better than most Catholics themselve (although not like those on this forum
Any help is appreciated.
Michael
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michaelp
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Yes, but even with my relationship with Christ as I have it now, I am still one of those who DO know about the Catholic Church and her teaching, and therefore I would not be among those who are ignorant according to V2. So, therefore, I am not and cannot be saved. In other words, if I were to die today, I don’t have a chance. Right? If not, how do you interpret this statement and apply it to me since I am clearly not one whom they are talking about?
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JGC
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Again, its dangerous ground because an individuals circumstances are known only to God. An example might be a protestant grows up and lives till his dying day faithfully according to his tradition. He lives on a remote island in the 1700’s. He might be taught that Catholicism is evil and in any event never meet one. I suspect he may be invincibly ignorant. But I do not know.OK. But “through no fault of their own” sounds to me like those who do ever have a chance to hear about the Catholic churches doctrine (e.g. those who have not heard because they did not get a chance"). But what does this “invincibly ignorant” mean? I hear it all the time, but I still don’t understand how to interpret it. I, myself, have heard about the Catholic faith for years and I think that I understand it better than most Catholics themselve (although not like those on this forum
Any help is appreciated.
Michael
Another example might be a very simple protestant who lives again faithfully in his tradition. He hears about Catholocism from a priest but does not understand it. He can barely understand what he has been taught as a child. I suspect he may be invincibly ignorant. But I do not know.
A final protestant example might be a protestant who wonders why there are so many denominations and does some research. He has access to books and the internet and is friendly with a priest. He realises that the Catholic Church holds the fullness of truth but does nothing about it. I suspect he may not be invincibly ignorant. But I do not know. However he may be unable to accept all Catholic doctirnes and therefore feels unable to join the Catholic Church, What happens to him - that’s up to almighty God. I do not know.
Finally this Catholic tries, as best he can, to follow the teachings of the Church. He hopes he will be saved. But ultimately, he does not know…
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JGC
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(My Bold) - If someone is not covered by the below then they may be saved as detailed elswhere in the Catechism is the Church teaching
846
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it
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michaelp
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JGC said:
OK, but do I know it? I mean, I know its claims and do not believe them. How does my situation relate to this?
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JGC
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I obviously don’t know what you believe about the Catholic Church and why so only you know what you think of the Catholic Church’s claim’s and why. You may have very good reasons for not believing the Catholic Church’s claims, perhaps some of the above. Or you might know in your heart that you must join the Catholic Church. I do not know. I would be very foolish to even attempt to evaluate any individuals circumstances
May God bless you wherever your searching takes you.
JGC
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Lisa4Catholics
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You answered your own question.To know means to have an understanding and belief and acceptance.God Bless
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michaelp
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What I am asking is what does “knowing” mean in this statement?
Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.
This does not seem to be a small matter that can be glossed over for people like me. In other words, how do you interpret “knowing”?
Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.
This does not seem to be a small matter that can be glossed over for people like me. In other words, how do you interpret “knowing”?
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JGC
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I knew the Catholic Church’s position on most matters at one time but did not accept them due to my protestant upbringing. Only when I investigated with an open mind did I realise the truth…
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michaelp
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If this were true, don’t all people who do not accept the Catholic church (i.e. Muslim, Hindu, New Age religion, etc) all fall into the same category as I? According to this interpretation, just about everyone who is religious is actually saved. Right?
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michaelp
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I just realized that this is not the topic of this thread. Although I am very confused about this, I will do research elsewhere. Thanks.
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JGC
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I’m getting nervous and really recomend you speak to a priest or perhaps post this on ask an apologist.
This is what dictionary.com has
know Audio pronunciation of “knowing” ( P ) Pronunciation Key
v. knew, (n, ny) known, (nn) know·ing, knows
v. tr.
- To perceive directly; grasp in the mind with clarity or certainty.
2. To regard as true beyond doubt: I know she won’t fail. - To have a practical understanding of, as through experience; be skilled in: knows how to cook.
- To have fixed in the mind: knows her Latin verbs.
- To have experience of: “a black stubble that had known no razor” (William Faulkner).
- To perceive as familiar; recognize: I know that face.
- To be acquainted with: He doesn’t know his neighbors.
- To be able to distinguish; recognize as distinct: knows right from wrong.
- To discern the character or nature of: knew him for a liar.
- Archaic. To have sexual intercourse with.
- To possess knowledge, understanding, or information.
- To be cognizant or aware.
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JGC
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Oops, sorry to have hijacked thread… 
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JKirkLVNV
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Michael: I cannot imagine why anyone would not want to be a Catholic (uh, unless you read some of the posters on these forums, then I’m amazed I belong to the same Church!). I mean it, in spite of the abuses, the nasty spots of history, all of that, I still would not be anything other than Catholic. That all said, I still firmly believe that you and I are brothers in Christ. I believe that my loved ones who died faithful and loving followers of Christ entered into His Presence (I must believe that, for the sake of my sanity), in spite of the fact that they were not formally joined to the Catholic Church. I don’t know about the ends and outs of “Extra Ecclesiam,” but in the mouths of the Rad Trads, it just doesn’t ring true to the meaning of what the Church has expanded it to mean. I’m not saying that I don’t think one’s religion matters. I do. The Catholic Church contains the fullness of Truth. And, as Thomas Howard says (paraphrase), in spite of Her warts, Christ still insists on calling Her His Spotless Bride. Christ founded One Church. I cannot now, nor have I ever been able to, nor do I think I ever will, see it any other way. I was Catholic before I was Catholic, if you will. But I will pray for you and ask that you pray for me.
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