Protestanism: a great heresy

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marineboy:
hey people invincible ignorance means that the person is ignorant and it is not his fault that he is ignorant… he can be ignorant and if it is his fault that he is ignorant then he goes to hell if he is judged in that state…read Pius XII humani generis when he says u canot expain away “Outside the Church there is no Salvation” and make it a meaningless phrase!!! by the way of course we dont know who is invincibly ignmornat and who is not so lets assume everyone is and through tthe Holy Spirit convert those protestants who, like many others can be a great help to the Kingdom…lets crush the heresy of Protestanism… its false… its wrong…dont let anyone tell u different…
You haven’t listened to a word the posters here have said have you. We have given you extensive reasons and documentation demonstrating where you are wrong (as noted some things you say are true, if not very well phrased) and how your attitude needs to change NOW.

Read this very carefully

Those who are privileged to share in the fullness of the Church’s riches of revealed wisdom, sacramental power, divinely assured guidance, and blessings of community life cannot pride themselves on having deserved what they possess. Rather they should humbly recognize their chosen position and gratefully live up to the covenant to which they have been called. Otherwise what began as a sign of God’s special favor on earth may end as a witness to his justice in the life to come.

Fr John Hardon SJ
ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ315.HTM

Then read the whole article. (by clicking the link) As a former protestant I can assure your attitude will 9999 times out of 10,000 put protestants, who may have been thinking of investigating the Catholic Church, off.

THINK ABOUT IT.

That’s if you really are a Catholic. I’m beginning to become suspicious…
 
Josiah,

Here is a really good resource that the webmaster very modestly calls “Biblical Truth for baptists.” In truth, it is an excellent resource for **ALL ** Christians!

The link to the main page is [ members.aol.com/uticacw/baptist/bibletruth.html](http://members.aol.com/uticacw/baptist/bibletruth.html)

Click on the first item: “Are Baptist Teachings about Baptism Biblical?”

This takes you to nine individual webpages on Baptism.

The first article is “The Mode and Subject of baptism in Acts” - which treats with, among the larger picture, your query on Infant Baptism. The direct LINK is
[ members.aol.com/uticacw/baptist/baptism8.html](http://members.aol.com/uticacw/baptist/baptism8.html)

Here is an extract:

**Subject: The Question of Personal and Individual Belief Preceding Baptism **

All of the baptisms described in Acts resulted from one or more persons professing their faith or belief in Christ Jesus. However, this is not to say that all of the persons baptized necessarily professed their own personal and individual faith in Christ.

The baptism of entire households poses a thorny problem to the modern, casual reader of the Bible. Certainly, there is the strong possibility that some of these households contained young children. But the issue runs much deeper than the question of infant baptism, for the baptismal narratives in Acts strongly imply that even adult dependents of the household allowed the head of the household to dictate the faith that they were to profess. If this is the case, then the New Testament Church would seem to have admitted and baptized members who professed faith without necessarily manifesting a genuine personal and individual belief in Jesus Christ.

Such an idea seems foreign to us, nursed as we are on deeply-rooted ideologies of individualism, personal liberty, and personal responsibility. But in the ancient world, the notion of the individual was not so well developed, especially as it pertained to women, children and slaves. Within the Bible itself, we find a clear expression of the idea that the head of the household was responsible for the religious profession of his entire household (e.g., Josh. 24:15). So too, the families and servants were also liable for the religious offences of the leaders of the household or tribe (e.g., Num. 16:31-35). In the ancient world, in the case of minors, women and domestic slaves and sevants, religious belief was seemingly more a matter of corporate identify than individual conviction.

Of course, five of the ten baptismal narratives in Acts say nothing of the baptism of children or household dependents. Philip baptized both men and women in Samaria (8:12), without any mention of household dependents, and Paul baptized twelve adult male disciples of John the Baptist without any reference to households. So too, the baptisms of Simon (8:13), the Eunuch (8:38) and Saul (9:18; 22:16) all treat the reception of an individual believer into the Church.

Each of the remaining five baptismal narratives in Acts, however, touch upon the relationship of the faith of the head of a household to the religious actions and affiliation of his dependents. The first, and most complicated, of these narratives is the baptism of the three-thousand on the first Pentecost. Now, modern-day advocates of the notion that only those who believe in their hearts should be baptized often point to Peter’s exhortation, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you” (Acts 2:38), as evidence that only true believers could have been baptized. Nonetheless, when taken as a whole the narrative makes it fairly clear that Peter addressed his offer of baptism and the gift of the Holy Spirit not only to individuals, but to their households as well, to include children and servants.
 
To begin, let us briefly recall that the original Greek for Acts 2:38 is ‘metanoesate kai baptistheto hekastos hymon’. Here, an aorist active imperative (second person plural) verb states a condition (protasis) upon which the fulfillment (apodosis) of another verb in the aorist imperative (third person singular) depends, and hence the mood and person establishes the force of that second verb as “must be baptized” (cf. D.B. Wallace, "Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics [Zondervan, 1996], p. 486). Furthermore, Peter establishes the partitive genitive (possessive) pronoun, ‘hekastos hymon’, as the subject of baptism, with “you” being in the plural. What does this mean in plain English? Peter addresses the entire audience with the message that, if YOU repent, then EACH ONE of you must be baptized.

Of course, the possessive pronoun is frequently used in the Bible to indicate a person’s family or household (see, e.g., Acts 16:33; ‘hoi autou apantes’). Indeed, Peter goes on immediately to confirm quite explicitly that the “promise is to you and to your children, and to those who are far off” (Acts 2:39). This promise, of course, is that of baptism by the Holy Spirit, for Peter is here alluding directly to his citation of the prophecy of Joel: “I will pour out my spirit on all flesh, and your sons and your daughter shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams, and even on my servants and hand-maidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit” (Acts 2:17-18, cf. Joel 3:1-5).

But Peter also quite specifically indicates that baptism by water is to precede this baptism by the Holy Spirit: “be baptized everyone of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost” (Acts 2:38). Indeed, the narrative and theological norm in Acts is that the gift of the Holy Spirit usually (with a notable and distinctly prophetic exception in Acts 10:47) follows the rite of Christian baptism, without any necessary relationship of causality however (see, e.g., Acts 8:16; Acts 19:1-7). Thus Peter effectively joins the gift of the Holy Spirit, which had been promised to all alike, whether young or old, free or slave, to the offer of the rite of baptism. This is to say, Peter specifically makes the rite baptism available to children and servants.

. . .]

For more on the subject - but a brief account:
[ scborromeo.org/truth/q4.htm](http://www.scborromeo.org/truth/q4.htm)

Hope this helps you to come home.
 
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JKirkLVNV:
Marine: Your ideas are dangerously close to Feeneyism. Pius XII excommunicated Father Feeney for his extreme views of “Extra Ecclesiam Nula Salus.” Your views are not what is taught in the Catechism of the Church. Do Holy Mother Church a favor. Don’t try to proselytize until you learn exactly what She teaches.
Be careful here. Fr. Feeney was excommunucated for disobedience not for teaching false views about baptism.

It is a mistake to use his excommunication as a basis to discount his teachings. Just think about St. Athanasious.

Fr. Feeneys beliefs were wrong because they were … well … wrong. That he was punished by excommunication has no bearing on this.
 
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marineboy:
hey people invincible ignorance means that the person is ignorant and it is not his fault that he is ignorant… he can be ignorant and if it is his fault that he is ignorant then he goes to hell if he is judged in that state…read Pius XII humani generis when he says u canot expain away “Outside the Church there is no Salvation” and make it a meaningless phrase!!! by the way of course we dont know who is invincibly ignmornat and who is not so lets assume everyone is and through tthe Holy Spirit convert those protestants who, like many others can be a great help to the Kingdom…lets crush the heresy of Protestanism… its false… its wrong…dont let anyone tell u different…
The Moderator may kick me out for this but I have to say it…
I declare that I am surprised you can read anything as deep as a papal encyclical since you seem to have such a hard time writing in English that other folks can read! Your posts, besides being obviously uncharitable, are so hard to follow because you don’t write in complete sentences.

I just had to get that off my chest-hope it doesn’t get me kicked off.

Missa
 
Munda cor meum:
Be careful here. Fr. Feeney was excommunucated for disobedience not for teaching false views about baptism.

It is a mistake to use his excommunication as a basis to discount his teachings. Just think about St. Athanasious.

Fr. Feeneys beliefs were wrong because they were … well … wrong. That he was punished by excommunication has no bearing on this.
That is, with respect, a jump in logic. The pope wanted him to obey by being silent and he wanted him to be silent because he was wrong. EENS wasn’t wrong (though it had to be expanded upon), but Feeney’s interpretation was wrong. That’s why he was told to be silent. Many Rad Trads try to claim the exc. was lifted before he died, but it wasn’t. Something happened before a notary, but it wasn’t authorized by any bishop, much less the Pope.
 
u people keep saying i am wrong—i dont see how–i said basically three things 1. Protestants arent catholics and need to be converted because they run the risk of goin to hell. 2. that Protestanism is a heresy. 9of course they have some truth all heresies have seome truth) 3. we need to tkake a tougher approach, at times, with protestants and warn them that they need to become catholics… nowu may not like my attitude in these posts, but that is a subjective judgment which is ur opinion… but please cit e where i ams pecifically saying anything contrary to Church teaching…
 
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marineboy:
u people keep saying i am wrong—i dont see how–i said basically three things 1. Protestants arent catholics and need to be converted because they run the risk of goin to hell. 2. that Protestanism is a heresy. 9of course they have some truth all heresies have seome truth) 3. we need to tkake a tougher approach, at times, with protestants and warn them that they need to become catholics… nowu may not like my attitude in these posts, but that is a subjective judgment which is ur opinion… but please cit e where i ams pecifically saying anything contrary to Church teaching…
marineboy, your motives may indeed be pure,but your delivery is mean and misleading.Did you know as Catholics we have more responsibilty,to who much is given much is expected.In this forum we don’t cover up truth we discuss it, in love.Look at the wonderful dialogs that go on here.When people whether Catholic or nonCatholic start ugly accusing posts,the dialog ceases and people get defensive and hurt and sometimes angry, then truth is cast away. I hope I have answered these questions.God Bless
 
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marineboy:
please JGC be specific if u are gonan make a serious charge like u made or have the guts to retract it…

marineboy quote
but my main point in my earlier post was to state Protestanism is a false form of Christinity and saves no one…

THE QUOTE IS CONTRARY TO CHURCH TEACHING

CCC

819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276

**(My BOLD)
**
838 "The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter."322 Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church.

Since the Fourth Lateran Council in 1215 defined that “The universal Church of the faithful is one, outside of which no one is saved,” there have been two solemn definitions of the same doctrine, by Pope Boniface VIII in 1302 and at the Council of Florence in 1442. At the Council of Trent, which is commonly looked upon as a symbol of Catholic unwillingness to compromise, the now familiar dogma of baptism by desire was solemnly defined; and it was this Tridentine teaching that supported all subsequent recognition that actual membership in the Church is not required to reach one’s eternal destiny.

Fr John Hardon SJ
 
the quote is not contrary to Church teaching…Protestanism is false … it has some truths to it yes and i dont doubt that Christ can use these Churches to bring one closer to the truth but only The Catholic church saves…
 
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marineboy:
the quote is not contrary to Church teaching…Protestanism is false … it has some truths to it yes and i dont doubt that Christ can use these Churches to bring one closer to the truth but only The Catholic church saves…
Yes it was. You have just backtracked (i.e retracted your assertion protestantism saves no-one) and stated, in your own way, a vague summary of the CCC paragraph I just cited.

Well done.

Now go away and read the rest of the CCC and other material I and others have provided. Hopefully it will sink in as well.
 
Just in case you are not sure I will put the two points right next to each other.

marineboy quote
but my main point in my earlier post was to state Protestanism is a false form of Christinity and saves no one…

CCC 819

Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation,
 
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marineboy:
the quote is not contrary to Church teaching…Protestanism is false … it has some truths to it yes and i dont doubt that Christ can use these Churches to bring one closer to the truth but only The Catholic church saves…
What is the Church, but the body of Christ and Christ saves us.We can’t read hearts unless you have the charism of St. Padre Pio,I am going to assume you don’t.We have to teach with love and if neccesary use words. God does the converting we don’t,and we should not say things are do thinks that would encourage people to dismiss a grace God has given them God Bless
 
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Lisa4Catholics:
Infants didn’t have the mental capability to understand stand circumsision either. God Bless
Good point Lisa, plus when the Apostles were telling people to repent, do you think there were any mothers with babies in their arms.
Would the mother have said, “oh don’t Baptize my baby he/she is too young” ?
 
Munda cor meum:
It is a mistake to use [Feeney’s] excommunication as a basis to discount his teachings. Just think about St. Athanasious.
Saint Athanasius was never excommunicated.

– Mark L. Chance.
 
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marineboy:
the quote is not contrary to Church teaching…Protestanism is false … it has some truths to it yes and i dont doubt that Christ can use these Churches to bring one closer to the truth but only The Catholic church saves…

The Church doesn’t save, though - the Lord of the Church does save 🙂 Salvation is from the Triune God - not, ultimately, the Church.​

The Church plays a part in our salvation, but is not the source of that salvation. I think a lot of Protestants - and not just them - are likely to think you mean that the Church is the source of salvation. ##
 
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Stephen-Maguire:
Good point Lisa, plus when the Apostles were telling people to repent, do you think there were any mothers with babies in their arms.
Would the mother have said, “oh don’t Baptize my baby he/she is too young” ?

There is a risk of projecting modern baptismal practice back into antiquity - baptism, was baptism of adults, for some centuries.​

Infants might be regarded as being within the covenant of salvation, by analogy with circumcision. Be that as it may, what is certain, is that the Church did not have its detailed theology of baptism in the fourth century (say), all-worked out at Pentecost; we can’t assume that what is obvious to us, would be obvious to St. Augustine, or that what is obvious to St. Augustine and to us, would be obvious to a Jewish Christian of the year 40.

This is not to say that the infant baptism can’t be a legitimate development of first-century practice; only that we cannot take for granted that Christian baptismal practice after Pentecost included infant baptism. FWIW, I think we should emphasise the Jewish background of the earliest Church far more, and, that we should ask whether there is anything in Jewish practice of baptisms and washings as practiced then, that can shed light on early Christian practice. The earliest Christians were Temple-attending Jews, after all. ##
 
Gottle of Geer said:
## There is a risk of projecting modern baptismal practice back into antiquity - baptism, was baptism of adults, for some centuries.

Infants might be regarded as being within the covenant of salvation, by analogy with circumcision. Be that as it may, what is certain, is that the Church did not have its detailed theology of baptism in the fourth century (say), all-worked out at Pentecost; we can’t assume that what is obvious to us, would be obvious to St. Augustine, or that what is obvious to St. Augustine and to us, would be obvious to a Jewish Christian of the year 40.

This is not to say that the infant baptism can’t be a legitimate development of first-century practice; only that we cannot take for granted that Christian baptismal practice after Pentecost included infant baptism. FWIW, I think we should emphasise the Jewish background of the earliest Church far more, and, that we should ask whether there is anything in Jewish practice of baptisms and washings as practiced then, that can shed light on early Christian practice. The earliest Christians were Temple-attending Jews, after all. ##

In scripture it was said that whole households were babtised.Back then,unlike today,they believed children were gifts from God and they didn’t have access to “the Pill”,so I believe it is a safe assumption that children and infants were babtised.God Bless
 
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michaelp:
I have heard this many times on this website as a very unbalanced and illinformed arguement. I am not saying this to argue for either side right now, just to correct a misrepresentation.

If you have studied the first centuries of the church you would quickly find out that the early Church WAS NOT “high and dry” with regards to the New Testament (much less the old). Much of the church had MOST of the New Testament from its very inception.
  1. Paul’s letters were immediately accepted as Scripture and passed into circulation very early. By the second century it was being passed on as a groups called the Pauline corpus. Many early fathers demonstate this by quoting from these documents (Clem quotes from Romans, 1 Cor. Gal, Eph, Col. 2 Thes at least; Polycarp Ignatius and Justin all quote from many of Paul’s letters; Ignatius and Justin do as well). And of course, it goes without saying that the Romans had Romans, Corinthians had Corinthians, Ephesians had Ephesians, etc . . .
    Even Peter, speaking to scattered bretheren, talks about the Pauline letters suggesting that his many readers from many different places may have had copies (2 Pet. 3:16).
  2. The Synoptic Gospels (Matt, Mk, Lk) were all accetped without question very early on by the Church. They were in immediate circulation. Many of the early writers quote from them with great authority showing that they were widely accepted and circulated. Again Clement, Polycarp, Ignatius, and Justin all quote from some, if not all the Gospel (including John) demonstrating that most of the Church had been exposed to the Gospels. Paul even quotes from Luke calling it Scripture (1 Tim 5:18).
  3. Acts was also understood to be inspired very early (at least by the begining of the second century. The Muratorian fragment includes Acts. Irenaus had a copy. There is no reason to assume that Acts was not accepted and circulated very early as was Luke’s gospel.
  4. The Muratorian Canon refers to 90% of the New Testament as being accepted by 190.
As can be evidenced by just taking the Synoptics, Acts, and the Pauline courpus, by the first century, 90% of the New Testament was in circulation throughout the entire church. Most of the major local churches probebly had all of these letters and other churches more than likely knew of them and had access to them.

Therefore, the arguemnt that the Church did not have the New Testament until the 4th century is absolutely wrong and misleading. This is very bad and illinfomed “folk theology” that many on this site are engaging in. It does not represent the truth, but mutilates it so that a desired goal can be accomplished.

I am not saying that you are doing this willingly, but, please, study the issues first. Represent the truth correctly. Bad and misleading argumentation doesn’t get anyone very far.

Michael
I never said the early Church was “high and dry.” What I said was to emphasize the idea that the process of seeking out the true Gospels among the many available at the time, of keeping them safe throughout the centuries, of protecting their truth as truth fell to the One True Church Made by God for Man.

Your paragraphs attest to this. When you say a group of people believed a given text was inspired, by whose decision? When you say the ancient scriptures were promulgated from place to place, who do you think made that possible?

Any scriptures available at any time have the Church to thank for their existence. Believe me, I take St. Jerome as my patron. I wonder if you would agree with what this ancient scholar had to say about the Virgin Mary.

You mention St. Irenaus. Do you believe everything he did? How is it that you cannot probe the beginnings of the Bible without quoting these Catholic sources?

If the ancient Church was run like a Protestant church, can you honestly say they would agree on which text to use as the Bible? If the explosion of denominations was instantaneous, what makes you think there would have only been one Bible in the end? Division is not the natural state of God’s Church. But it is the natural state of Protestantism.

My point is that there would be no Bible as we know it today, were it not for the blood, sweat, and prayers of the Catholic Church.
 
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