Protestanism: a great heresy

[michaelp]

I never said the early Church was “high and dry.” What I said was to emphasize the idea that the process of seeking out the true Gospels among the many available at the time, of keeping them safe throughout the centuries, of protecting their truth as truth fell to the One True Church Made by God for Man.

You mean to Christians. You are right.

Your paragraphs attest to this. When you say a group of people believed a given text was inspired, by whose decision? When you say the ancient scriptures were promulgated from place to place, who do you think made that possible?

It was God’s decision, we simply recognized this. I started a thread on this if you want to go over their and discuss this. I would love to have you.

Any scriptures available at any time have the Church to thank for their existence. Believe me, I take St. Jerome as my patron. I wonder if you would agree with what this ancient scholar had to say about the Virgin Mary.

Do you agree with Jerome’s view of the Deuterocanonical books. Do you agree with Irenaeus’ view of the millennium.

My friend, we all have to walk through the gardens of Church history and choose the flowers that look best to us. You pick some that I don’t pick, and I pick some that you don’t pick. There are also many that we pick together. You must be realistic.

How is it that you cannot probe the beginnings of the Bible without quoting these Catholic sources?

You see with a different pair of sunglasses on than I do. In other words, you worldview causes this statement to make sense to you, but to me, it makes no sense. Change this to "How is it that you cannot probe the beginnings of the Bible without quoting these CHRISTIAN sources? Then it might make a little more sense.

If the ancient Church was run like a Protestant church, can you honestly say they would agree on which text to use as the Bible? If the explosion of denominations was instantaneous, what makes you think there would have only been one Bible in the end? Division is not the natural state of God’s Church. But it is the natural state of Protestantism.

Yes. It is not that difficult.

My point is that there would be no Bible as we know it today, were it not for the blood, sweat, and prayers of the Catholic Church.

There would be no Bible if it weren’t for the Holy Spirit guiding the apostles to write it. The Church as an institution has nothing more to do with the coming of Scripture than Newton had to do with gravity. They both just discover what already existed and principle who’s rule they were already subject to.

You really ought to go to this thread.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=27722

Thanks,

Michael

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Lisa4Catholics:

In scripture it was said that whole households were babtised.Back then,unlike today,they believed children were gifts from God and they didn’t have access to “the Pill”,so I believe it is a safe assumption that children and infants were babtised.God Bless

And that assumption is based on… ? ​

FWIW, while there was no Pill, obviously, there were abortifacient methods. Even in Antiquity. Or else unwanted children could be exposed and left to die. Views on children in the Biblical literature can’t be projected on to the entire Mediterranean world - Philippi, which is the scene of one of the incidents which preceded a baptism in Acts (Acts 16), was in Greece, not Palestine; so its population would not necessarily regard children quite as Jews did. ##

 

[josiah]

Lisa4Catholics:

Let me ask you a question.Do you think babtism has any power in itself or do you feel it is merely a symbolic act?

Hello all. I’m sorry I haven’t posted any replies lately, but I’ve been sick for a few days and haven’t been able to reply to some of you. If I forget to respond to any of you please let me know.

Lisa4Catholics…
No Lisa, I personally don’t believe baptism has any power within itself. I do believe it is symbolic of the death, burial and resurrection.
I would reference the thief on the cross as an example of this. He believed and yet didn’t have the opportunity to be baptized. Jesus said that he would be with him in paradise that day.

God bless

Josiah

 

[josiah]

I’ve read some other posts that refer to the baptizing of infants, which is more of an issue of what comes first. Belief then baptism or Baptism then belief.

Now, I know that all of us would agree that Scripture is inerrant. I struggle with the Traditions that conflict with Scripture. I know that some of you have taken the passages in ACTS and still believe that it was HOUSEHOLDS (including infants that were baptized). But, there is one passage that no one has commented on yet.

Act 8:36-38 (36) And as they passed along the way, they came on some water. And the eunuch said, See, here is water, what hinders me from being baptized?(37) Philip said, If you believe with all your heart, it is lawful. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.(38) And he commanded the chariot to stand still. And they both went down into the water, both Philip and the eunuch. And he baptized him.

I think this is an explicit statement. Philip said “IF you believe then it is lawful”. Philip places a condition here.

To say that there are other passages of scripture that explicitly or implicitly condone baptism before belief contradicts this statement. The result is we no longer have an inerrant text.

God bless

Josiah

 

[josiah]

marineboy:

the quote is not contrary to Church teaching…Protestanism is false … it has some truths to it yes and i dont doubt that Christ can use these Churches to bring one closer to the truth but only The Catholic church saves…

Marineboy,
Would you care to point out where in scripture it says that the church saves? However you might want to consider:

Act 4:10-12 Jesus Christ of Nazareth… (12) And there is salvation in no other One; for there is no other name under Heaven given among men by which we must be saved.

Act 16:30-31 And leading them outside, he said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? (31) And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved…

Rom 5:8 But God commends His love toward us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us. Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.

I don’t see anything that mentions the church as the object of salvation. Jesus Christ is the object of salvation.

Peace
Josiah

 

[mlchance]

josiah:

I don’t see anything that mentions the church as the object of salvation. Jesus Christ is the object of salvation.

Christ Jesus is the author of our salvation, and the Church is His Body. One is not saved by the Church, but is saved by being joined to the Church.

josiah:

Now, I know that all of us would agree that Scripture is inerrant. I struggle with the Traditions that conflict with Scripture.

Once again, Scripture does not conflict with Tradition. Your tradition conflicts with both Scripture and the authentic Tradition preserved by the Catholic Church.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[marineboy]

well perhaps i wasnt clear…when i say the church saves i mean that Jesus Chrsit saves, but He has commanded us to beleive in all His teachings in order to be saved…so in order to believe all His teachings one has to be a catholic …since the Catholic church is the only church to teach the fullness of truth… in order to be saved one must become a catholic ( that is beleive in all His teachings) unless one is invicibly ignorant and trys to follow God the best he can… i hope that clears it up

 

[josiah]

**

mlchance:

Christ Jesus is the author of our salvation, and the Church is His Body. One is not saved by the Church, but is saved by being joined to the Church.

Where is your reference for this? Is the Church literally His Body?
Let’s consider these passages:

Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.

Rom 10:9 Because if you confess the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved.

Gal 2:15-16 We Jews by nature, and not sinners of the nations, (16) knowing that a man is not justified by works of the Law, but through faith in Jesus Christ; even we believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith in Christ, and not by works of the Law. For all flesh will not be justified by works of law.

Justified means acceptable or vindicated.

Once again, Scripture does not conflict with Tradition. Your tradition conflicts with both Scripture and the authentic Tradition preserved by the Catholic Church.

My friend. I don’t have tradition. I just have scripture because
2 Tim 3:16 says

2Ti 3:16-17 All Scripture is God-breathed, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, (17) that the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished to every good work.

Q: If all scripture is able to make me perfect (or thoroughly equipped in other versions), then why do I need Catholic Traditions?

peace

**

 

[josiah]

marineboy:

well perhaps i wasnt clear…when i say the church saves i mean that Jesus Chrsit saves, but He has commanded us to beleive in all His teachings in order to be saved…so in order to believe all His teachings one has to be a catholic …

Is the Church and Jesus Christ synonymous?
Where does Christ say that we must believe in all His teachings?

 

[marineboy]

Christ founded the Catholic church and one of the three major creeds of the Church, the athanasius creed starts with, this is the catholic faith if one does not believe and preserve it whole and entire then he will perish–i am para phrasing but go look it up…also.whenever something is solemnly defined the church says that “it is necessary for salvation”–so membership in the church and preservation of faith is normatively necessary for salvation

 

[josiah]

marineboy:

Christ founded the Catholic church and one of the three major creeds of the Church, the athanasius creed starts with, this is the catholic faith if one does not believe and preserve it whole and entire then he will perish–i am para phrasing but go look it up…also.whenever something is solemnly defined the church says that “it is necessary for salvation”–so membership in the church and preservation of faith is normatively necessary for salvation

No marineboy…I didn’t ask what some council said. I asked where did Christ say this, b/c you said…

Originally Posted by marineboy
well perhaps i wasnt clear…when i say the church saves i mean that Jesus Chrsit saves, but He has commanded us to beleive in all His teachings in order to be saved…

After all Tradition and Scripture are both authoratative…right?

 

[marineboy]

WHEN THE CHURCH TEACHES IN A COUNCIL( ON FAITH AND MORALS IN AN OFFICIAL WAY) IT IS CHRIST TALKING… “WHOEVER HEARS YOU HEARS ME…” IF UR CATHOLIC U KNOW THAT, IF UR NOT CATHOLIC THEN THIS DISCUSSION SHOULD CENTER AROUND CHURCH AUTHORITY, SOLA SCRIPTURA, ORAL TRADITION ETC-----IF U WANT TO DO THAT PLEASE START A NEW THREAD and i will be happy to respond

 

[josiah]

marineboy:

WHEN THE CHURCH TEACHES IN A COUNCIL( ON FAITH AND MORALS IN AN OFFICIAL WAY) IT IS CHRIST TALKING… “WHOEVER HEARS YOU HEARS ME…” IF UR CATHOLIC U KNOW THAT, IF UR NOT CATHOLIC THEN THIS DISCUSSION SHOULD CENTER AROUND CHURCH AUTHORITY, SOLA SCRIPTURA, ORAL TRADITION ETC-----IF U WANT TO DO THAT PLEASE START A NEW THREAD and i will be happy to respond

This what I have been talking about with some others in this thread.
What happens when Tradition conflicts with Scripture? Please see
some of the previous posts by me.

Thanks
Josiah

 

[MarkInOregon]

## And that assumption is based on… ?

FWIW, while there was no Pill, obviously, there were abortifacient methods. Even in Antiquity. Or else unwanted children could be exposed and left to die. Views on children in the Biblical literature can’t be projected on to the entire Mediterranean world - Philippi, which is the scene of one of the incidents which preceded a baptism in Acts (Acts 16), was in Greece, not Palestine; so its population would not necessarily regard children quite as Jews did. ##

Gottle,

I’ve been meaning to ask–what do the ## mean in your posts? Thanks.

Regarding infant baptisms and assumptions–did you see post 137? Specifically the quotes from Hippolytus AD 215 and Origen AD 248–while not first century they are still very early quotes testifying to the practice are they not?

The peace of Christ be with you.
Mark

 

[marineboy]

I AM GOIN TO Start a new thread on ur question see “Protestant asks a question”

 

[TNT]

]

Rom 10:9 Because if you confess the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the

dead, you shall be saved.

From the Church of Baptized Saved:

Mark:16:16: He that believeth and

is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
1Pet:3:21: The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us
From the Church of Calling His Name Saved:

Acts:2:21: And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord

shall be saved. From the Church of The Saved in Hope:

Rom:8:24: For we are** saved**

by hope From the Church of Saved in Sober Childearing:

1Tim:2:15: Notwithstanding she shall be saved

in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety. Gal 2:15-16 We Jews by nature, and not sinners of the nations, (16) knowing that a man is not justified by works of the Law, but through faith in Jesus Christ; even we believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith in Christ, and not by works of the Law. For all flesh will not be justified by works of law.

Justified means acceptable or vindicated. And Works of the LAW means Works of the Mosaic Law, including circumcision which is the representative Work of the Mosaic Law. It has nothing to do with GOOD WORKS, lest we throw James into the fireplace.
My friend. I don’t have tradition. I just have scripture because 2Ti 3:16-17 All Scripture is God-breathed, …may be perfect, thoroughly furnished to every good work. From the Church of the Perfect by Patience:

James:1:4: But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.

From the Church of The Perfect by Works in Faith:

Jame:2:22: Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and** by works** was faith made perfect?

Q: If all scripture is able

to make me perfect (or thoroughly equipped in other versions), then why do I need Catholic Traditions**?**
Because:
1Cor:1:10: Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
And:
2Thes:2:15: Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

2Thes:3:6: Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.

Q: So, before I was able to read or understand Scripture, was I saved or not?
Q:If I have a retarded child not able to understand Scripture or even to read it, are they saved or not; Perfect or not?

From the Church of the Perfect in Giving all to the Poor:

Math:19:21: Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

Q: I do not believe that Hebrews belongs in the Scriptures, same for Philemon. I do not see anywhere that they reek of Divine Inspiration. Would you please prove to me that they ARE Divinely Inspired and that they must be contained in the 27 Books of Inspired Scripture?
Q: Why must there be 27 and not 25 or 28 books in your NT?

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

marineboy:

Christ founded the Catholic church and one of the three major creeds of the Church, the athanasius creed starts with, this is the catholic faith if one does not believe and preserve it whole and entire then he will perish–i am para phrasing but go look it up…also.whenever something is solemnly defined the church says that “it is necessary for salvation”–so membership in the church and preservation of faith is normatively necessary for salvation

Hello, Marineboy Mark 9.38-42 John said to him,“Teacher,we saw someone casting out demons in your name, and we tried to stop him, because he was not following us”. But Jesus said,"Do not stop him; for no one who does a deed of power in My name will be able soon afterward to speak evil of me. Whoever is not against us is for us.For truly I tell you,whoever gives you a cup of water because you bear the name of Christ will by no means lose the reward."Okay, now,what do you think this means?God Bless

 

[CatholicCrusade]

Lisa4Catholics:

Hello, Marineboy Mark 9.38-42 John said to him,“Teacher,we saw someone casting out demons in your name, and we tried to stop him, because he was not following us”. But Jesus said,"Do not stop him; for no one who does a deed of power in My name will be able soon afterward to speak evil of me. Whoever is not against us is for us.For truly I tell you,whoever gives you a cup of water because you bear the name of Christ will by no means lose the reward."Okay, now,what do you think this means?God Bless

It’s not up to us to decide… the Church has constantly said that when Christ said: “He who is not with me IS AGAINST ME, and he that gathereth not with me scattereth” means that those outside the Church are automatically against Christ, since they are not with him. You would have it that Christ is contradicting Himself. No. He does not, and the Church has never attributed what is said in that passage to mean that those outside the Church are with Christ unless they specifically make themselves against Him (e.g. prots would be for Him). NO. He said: He who is not with me is against me!

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

CatholicCrusade:

It’s not up to us to decide… the Church has constantly said that when Christ said: “He who is not with me IS AGAINST ME, and he that gathereth not with me scattereth” means that those outside the Church are automatically against Christ, since they are not with him. You would have it that Christ is contradicting Himself. No. He does not, and the Church has never attributed what is said in that passage to mean that those outside the Church are with Christ unless they specifically make themselves against Him (e.g. prots would be for Him). NO. He said: He who is not with me is against me!

The Magestarium says that those that have been raised in a non-catholic tradition and through no fault of their own do not know that Our Holy Catholic Church is the Church that Jesus founded can be saved! So I guess you will also contend that people who honestly believe through no fault of their own that we worship Mary, statues ect. and use the graces that God gives them will be tossed to hell for being misinformed?That sounds EXACTLY like the Church of Christ tradition that I grew up with,and that kept me away from God for years,because I felt he was not loving or just,because he would throw someone to hell on a technicallity!God Bless You

 

[CatholicCrusade]

Lisa4Catholics:

The Magestarium says that those that have been raised in a non-catholic tradition and through no fault of their own do not know that Our Holy Catholic Church is the Church that Jesus founded can be saved! So I guess you will also contend that people who honestly believe through no fault of their own that we worship Mary, statues ect. and use the graces that God gives them will be tossed to hell for being misinformed?That sounds EXACTLY like the Church of Christ tradition that I grew up with,and that kept me away from God for years,because I felt he was not loving or just,because he would throw someone to hell on a technicallity!God Bless You

If by “technicality” you mean: following what He taught, then YES, by all means He will send to hell all those who do not follow this “technicality”, which he ordained many times in His own life as well as through His Vicars on earth.

Which infallible pronouncement of the Magisterium defined that those who are ‘invincibly ignorant’ could be saved? I recall quite the contrary:

“We must mention and condemn again that most pernicious error which has been imbibed by certain Catholics who are of the opinion that those people who live in error and have not the true faith and are separated from Catholic unity, may obtain life everlasting. Now this opinion is most contrary to the Catholic faith, as is evident from the plain words of Our Lord, (Matt 18:17; Mark 16:16; Luke 10:16; John 3:18) as also from the words of Saint Paul (2 Tit. 52:11) and of Saint Peter (2 Peter 2:1) To entertain opinions contrary to this Catholic faith is to be an impious wretch*.*” - Blessed Pope Pius IX