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JustaServant
Guest
Looks pretty snarky to me.I’d love to see a Baptist minister suggest THAT to his congregation
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Wannano
Guest
My mother once told me to remember that when I point my finger at someone I should realize there are three fingers pointing back at myself. The older I get I realize the wisdom she was expounding to me. Hopefully we all mature as we move along.
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Lenten_ashes
Guest
Understandable and I mean no harm. But truth also matters as I’m sure your mother also told you. That’s what is happening on this website, discussing doctrinal differences and trying to determine what is truth. Satan constantly attacks truth because he seeks to divide and conquer.
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Lenten_ashes
Guest
I guess you would have to experience the anti-Catholic(and all Catholic practices) bigotry that I have experienced to understand where I am coming from.
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Wannano
Guest
Discussing doctrinal differences is quite different from berating and belittling.
LaughingBoy1503
Well-known member
Interestingly enough, someone else mentioned they saw public confession going on in a Baptist church. I have a cousin who is also a baptist. My aunt told me that when he got his girlfriend pregnant at the time (she is now his wife) he had to publicly apologize for doing this in front of the congregation. Although I did not see this with my own eyes I have never known my aunt to be a liar so I believe her.That’s interesting and protestant ministers do talk about home fellowship as a reflection of early worship.
The one thing they always seem to leave out, though, is general confession of sins done in front of the entire congregation. Before we went to confessionals, you had to be humiliated in front of everybody by blurting out all your sins in front of them. I’d love to see a Baptist minister suggest THAT to his congregation
Felt the same way about sola scriptura. I think it’s a mindset because of one scripture.
1 Corinthians 4:6
If you are a Calvinist with the NASB your bible says this:
Ah-hah! See those Catholics are doing it again. If they would just read the bible they would know how wrong they are!
Except, the problem is that verse is translated like 8 different ways. Here are just a few:
See how different that is? Don’t think of men above that which is written. If you pay attention to what I have quoted from the scriptures…Don’t go beyond what the TANAKH says…That’s the OLD TESTAMENT.
It makes ZERO sense for Paul to dismiss oral tradition when He is clearly in favor of it in 2 Thessalonians 2:15 and 1 Corinthians 11:2 and Romans 6:17 and that is what the early church was. Tradition coming before everything was written down and circulated.
But that is what I did as a protestant, overlook other verses in order to fit my own theology.
And BTW, that one verse translated so differently is just another example of why we need a magisterium. Without a magisterium, theological chaos will eventually unfold.
Also I remember when I was attending a non denominational church in my teens, I was required to write down all my sins (generally, not every single sin I ever did) and give it to one of the leader guys (I am not sure what his official position was, just that he led Bible studies and the process of first attending their church and later becoming Baptized) So I do know by experience some protestant denominations do have some sort of confession. This denomination went as far as to re baptize people who later admit they purposely left something out of their confession. So. they did confession before Baptism and lying about something or purposely leaving it out of your written confession invalidated your baptism apparently. They did believe that Baptism was necessary for salvation though. You get all kinds of mixes of truth and heresy with some non denominational churches.
BTW, I never went through with Baptism in their church. Their church felt too cultish so I told them I would continue to go to church but just not with them lol
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Wannano
Guest
I am sorry you have been hurt by anti-Catholic bigots. Don’t allow these experiences to make you become a Catholic bigot.
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PJM
Guest
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Topper17
Guest
Hi always,
Thanks for your response.
Maybe you could make a definitive statement and we could springboard from there?
God Bless You always, Topper
Thanks for your response.
That again is something that not all ecclesiastical communities agree upon. But I do get your point I think. Not only to various communions interpret Scripture differently, they also have varying understandings of what Scripture actually is. Not to mention, what is scripture and what is not.
Maybe you could make a definitive statement and we could springboard from there?
God Bless You always, Topper
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PJM
Guest
REALLY
Then explain to US your understanding of for examples:
Mt : 16: 18-19 " [18] And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church,{singular} and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. [19] And I will give to YOU the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever YOU shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever YOU shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven."Jn. 17: 17:20 "[17] Sanctify them ** {MEANS Catholics} in truth. Thy word is truth. [18] As thou hast sent me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. [19] And for them** do I sanctify myself, that they also may be sanctified in truth. [20] And not for them only do I pray, but for them also who through their word shall believe in me;
Mt. 28:19-20 " [19] Going therefore, teach YOU all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. [20] Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded YOU: and behold I am with YOU all days, even to the consummation of the world.
John 6: 47-57 " [47] Amen, amen I say unto you: He that believeth in me, hath everlasting life. [48] I am the bread of life. [49] Your fathers did eat manna in the desert, and are dead. [50] This is the bread which cometh down from heaven; that if any man eat of it, he may not die.
[51] I am the living bread which came down from heaven. [52] If any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever; and the bread that I will give, is my flesh, for the life of the world. [53] The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying: How can this man give us his flesh to eat? [54] Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say unto you: Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you. [55] He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day. [56] For my flesh is meat indeed: and my blood is drink indeed. [57] He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, abideth in me, and I in him
John 20:19-23 "[19] Now when it was late that same day, the first of the week, and the doors were shut, where the disciples were gathered together, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst, and said to them: Peace be to you. [20] And when he had said this, he shewed them his hands and his side. The disciples therefore were glad, when they saw the Lord. [21] He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you**. [22] When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. [23] Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.**
WORDS dear friend, have meaning; and THESE WORDS are the WORDS of OUR GOD:thumbsup: So do YOU believe and accept them
God Bless you,
Patrick
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Lenten_ashes
Guest
That’s interesting and not something I have heard before.
I can recall the pastors encouraging us to confess our sins to one another as the bible says. And we did that privately, but to confess to a pastor was out of the question and any hint of something like that practiced by Catholics was totally shunned. And the thing is, I don’t even think it’s the concepts they objected to, it’s the idea of being like the Catholics they don’t like. I base this off of all the disgusting talk I heard from the pastor about the “pagan Catholic church”.
I started out non-denominational as well. The main thing I really liked about them is they taught sound doctrine in regards to salvation. One morning we get done singing and before the pastor delivers his sermon, he says “some of you are standing there singing amazing grace and you are going to hell with a hymnal in your hand!!” lol No OSAS over there you better live right because there is a payday someday for all who die in sin.
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PJM
Guest
So my friend,
PLEASE LOOK at MY POST #149 on this STRING and kindly respond to it.
Certainly these shared passages are GOD BREATHED; do YOU believe and accept them?
God Bless you,
Patrick
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Lenten_ashes
Guest
It will not happen. I was a protestant for 13 years. I hate the division that sola scriptura has caused and so maybe my frustration gives the appearance that I am belittling when that’s not my intention. I love all of Christendom.
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Topper17
Guest
Hi Lenten,
Thanks for your response.
To demonstrate just how diverse it is, even on the issue of ‘diversity of doctrine’, just try to get anyone who speaks of the ‘essentials’ to give you a list of those very essentials. I have been trying to get somebody to give me a list, just the list mind you, for years. No luck so far. If anyone actually does, THEN I will ask for an explanation as to the ‘proper’ understandings of those issues. That would though reveal that there is NOT agreement on the ‘essentials’.
Hi Lenten,
Thanks for your response.
Ratzinger’s quote again:
**Lastly, the first generation of the Reformation also had to seek “the centre of Scripture”, to obtain an interpretive key which could not be extrapolated from the text as such. Another practical example: in the clash with Gerd Lüdemann, a professor who denied the resurrection and divinity of Christ, etc., **it has been pointed out that the Evangelical Church cannot do without a sort of Magisterium. **When the contours of the faith are blurred in a chorus of opposing exegetical efforts (materialist, feminist, liberationist exegeses, etc.), it seems evident that it is precisely the relationship with the professions of faith, and thus with the Church’s living tradition, that guarantees the literal interpretation of Sacred Scripture, protecting it from subjectivism and preserving its originality and authenticity. Therefore the Magisterium does not diminish the authority of Sacred Scripture but safeguards it by taking an inferior position to it and allowing the faith flowing from it to emerge.” *
The suggestion being is that perhaps protestantism should form their own magisterium in order to safe guard “essentials” or basic tenets of the faith. If you gathered leaders from all the mainstream denominations, I think they could come up with something…may be a little flimsy but at least something to protect them from any further heresy or moral decadence.
I have made similar proposals and not completely tongue in cheek. I think that there should be a Protestant Ecumenical, one where they would ALL gather together, pray to the Holy Sprit to be led to the Truth, and ALL commit to adjusting their doctrinal positions to the decision of the Holy Spirit led Council.
THEN, they could come to the Church with an actually unified position, from a position of strength rather than from the weakness associated with doctrinal confusion. Then the Church would have only ONE entity to deal with ecumenically, rather than (who knows how) many. Maybe a ‘baby step’ would be for each of the various traditions (Lutheran, Calvinist, etc) could have a sub Council in preparation for the overall Protestant Ecumenical one.
As outlandish as this might sound to a lot of people, I personally don’t think that there is ANY WAY to reunite Christianity short of such a radical step.
What do you think?
God Bless You Lenten, Topper
Thanks for your response.
Actually, I have seen references to something like 17 conflicting Reformation community beliefs on Salvation.
To demonstrate just how diverse it is, even on the issue of ‘diversity of doctrine’, just try to get anyone who speaks of the ‘essentials’ to give you a list of those very essentials. I have been trying to get somebody to give me a list, just the list mind you, for years. No luck so far. If anyone actually does, THEN I will ask for an explanation as to the ‘proper’ understandings of those issues. That would though reveal that there is NOT agreement on the ‘essentials’.
ewtn.com/library/Theology/OBDOMIHS.HTM
Hi Lenten,
Thanks for your response.
Ratzinger’s quote again:
Lenten_ashes;13700410** said:
**Lastly, the first generation of the Reformation also had to seek “the centre of Scripture”, to obtain an interpretive key which could not be extrapolated from the text as such. Another practical example: in the clash with Gerd Lüdemann, a professor who denied the resurrection and divinity of Christ, etc., **it has been pointed out that the Evangelical Church cannot do without a sort of Magisterium. **When the contours of the faith are blurred in a chorus of opposing exegetical efforts (materialist, feminist, liberationist exegeses, etc.), it seems evident that it is precisely the relationship with the professions of faith, and thus with the Church’s living tradition, that guarantees the literal interpretation of Sacred Scripture, protecting it from subjectivism and preserving its originality and authenticity. Therefore the Magisterium does not diminish the authority of Sacred Scripture but safeguards it by taking an inferior position to it and allowing the faith flowing from it to emerge.” *
The suggestion being is that perhaps protestantism should form their own magisterium in order to safe guard “essentials” or basic tenets of the faith. If you gathered leaders from all the mainstream denominations, I think they could come up with something…may be a little flimsy but at least something to protect them from any further heresy or moral decadence.
I have made similar proposals and not completely tongue in cheek. I think that there should be a Protestant Ecumenical, one where they would ALL gather together, pray to the Holy Sprit to be led to the Truth, and ALL commit to adjusting their doctrinal positions to the decision of the Holy Spirit led Council.
THEN, they could come to the Church with an actually unified position, from a position of strength rather than from the weakness associated with doctrinal confusion. Then the Church would have only ONE entity to deal with ecumenically, rather than (who knows how) many. Maybe a ‘baby step’ would be for each of the various traditions (Lutheran, Calvinist, etc) could have a sub Council in preparation for the overall Protestant Ecumenical one.
As outlandish as this might sound to a lot of people, I personally don’t think that there is ANY WAY to reunite Christianity short of such a radical step.
What do you think?
God Bless You Lenten, Topper
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Lenten_ashes
Guest
So you understand where I am coming from them.
And I was not aware Lutherans did anything but general confession during Mass. Learn something new every day. Thanks for sharing.
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Lenten_ashes
Guest
C
commenter
Guest
Some early Christians regarded what we now call the Old Testament as non Scripture. Other early Christians regarded only the Old Testament as “Scripture”. Still others accepted both, as continuing to be Scripture. Of course, a lot depends on which Christian writings one considers inspired; keep in mind that most reported sayings of Christ were excluded by the Magisterium.
You are likely relying on the relatively few sayings of Christ that the Magisterium endorsed. You are likely excluding the majority of sayings of Christ, which some scholars in ancient times, or on the History Channel, consider equally valid with the familiar 4 gospels. But the Magisterium rejected them. Thus, you and I do, as well.
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Kliska
Guest
Which part of his list of essentials does he think Catholics don’t believe?ETA; Ah, I see his claim, “Roman Catholicism denies salvation by grace through faith alone in Christ alone.” His intentionally changing the position, by adding words in where they don’t belong, namely salvation by grace through faith “alone.” I’m not Catholic but even I can see the glaring problem with his claim against Catholicism.
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