Protestant claims baptism not necessary - help!

[huck]

Any suggestions on how to prove the necessity of Baptism accurately and succinctly?

Hello Margaret_Ann,
From reading the book of Acts it appears to me that Baptism was the means by which the Holy Ghost was passed along.
The symbolic lesson of the Garden of Eden story is that prior to them eating the fruit, they lived a very easy life where there was never any want for anything. After eating they had an awareness of right and wrong but this awareness needed to be educated. Prior to the fall no soul could harm anyone else therefore they didn’t need an awareness of right and wrong. We needed to pass through lifetimes where karma would help to teach us.
After Moses built the Arc of the Covenant the Holy Ghost stayed in proximity of the Ark. Wherever the Ark went the Holy Ghost was there. Sometimes this was a blessing and sometimes it was a curse. Many people died because they offended God is some way. Eventually the Ark was taken away and the HG left.
Fast forward to Jesus overcoming the flesh through the cross. Because of what he did the HG (what he called the comforter) was coming back into the world. Harrah. The HG wouldn’t be of much value if Jesus remained on earth because it would hang around Jesus just like it remained with the Ark. The HG comes down and a large (not all) part remains with Peter. This is both a blessing for some (people were healed) and a curse for others like Annias and Saphira. When Peter baptized they actually experienced something which they didn’t when a different Apostle baptized them. Now that Peter is dead the HG is pretty much spread out over the entire world.

 

[po18guy]

Hmmmm…Where did Jesus teach that baptism was not necessary? I seem to recall that He put some stress on it. That poor person’s warped theology makes Jesus inconsistent or even irrational. It makes him and/or his “pastor” superior to, even overriding our Lord. It gives Saint Paul more authority than Christ!

Saint Peter teaches that “baptism now saves you” and Saint Paul specifically condemned such factionalism in 1 Corinthians 1. Ask him (of course it’s a stubborn guy, huh?) to read some uncharted and unfamiliar territory in his bible: the letters that come right after Romans. Yes, they are there!

 

[glencor63]

Baptism is not optional. It removes Original Sin and brings one into the body of Christ. Jesus commanded that the disciples go forth and baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

“Matthew 28:18-20: “And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.”

 

[Tolle_Lege]

He cited St. Paul’s Epistle to the Romans (if you confess with your mouth…) that only acknowledging Jesus as Lord and Savior is all that is necessary to be saved and that one doesn’t need to be baptized.

This line comes from Romans 10, and it doesn’t say you only have to confess belief in Jesus to be saved. It reads, “If you declare with your mouth, ‘Jesus is Lord,’ and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.” [Romans 10: 9-10, NIV]

Earlier in his letter to the Romans, in Chapter 6, St. Paul writes: “What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.” [Romans 6: 1-4, NIV]

Maybe your friend should read the whole letter.

 

[Peeps]

I was raised in the Conference Baptist Church. (It’s called something different now.)

There are hundreds of varieties of Baptists.

What we used to say in our Baptist church is this–Baptism isn’t necessary for salvation, but a refusal to be baptized indicates that the person hasn’t REALLY accepted Christ as their Savior and Lord, because those who REALLY accept Jesus as Savior and Lord will WANT to be like Jesus in all respects, including being baptized in water.

Also, if someone isn’t willing to follow Jesus’ example and be baptized, then how can they possibly do the harder things that Jesus might ask of them later, e.g., facing the diagnosis of a fatal disease, facing the death of a loved one, facing persecution and/or martyrdom, or simply struggling to give up besetting sins? Baptism is the EASIEST thing to do, and it shows that we identify with Jesus Christ and want to be like Him in all respects!

Try that on him. It should work.

But it won’t convince him that baptism is necessary for salvation. Baptists reject any and ALL “works of man” as necessary for salvation.

After I became Catholic, I personally came to believe that Jesus Himself was baptized because He knew that one day, the Church would split, and Protestants would teach that baptism isn’t necessary, and they would then have no hope of heaven because of the stain of original sin. So out of His great love for all mankind, including Protestants, Jesus was baptized so that Protestants would follow His example and be baptized, too, even though they were doing it for an incorrect reason.

 

[TheLittleLady]

Lutherans are very much believers in Baptism.

 

[Wannano]

I was raised in the Conference Baptist Church. (It’s called something different now.)

There are hundreds of varieties of Baptists.

What we used to say in our Baptist church is this–Baptism isn’t necessary for salvation, but a refusal to be baptized indicates that the person hasn’t REALLY accepted Christ as their Savior and Lord, because those who REALLY accept Jesus as Savior and Lord will WANT to be like Jesus in all respects, including being baptized in water.

Also, if someone isn’t willing to follow Jesus’ example and be baptized, then how can they possibly do the harder things that Jesus might ask of them later, e.g., facing the diagnosis of a fatal disease, facing the death of a loved one, facing persecution and/or martyrdom, or simply struggling to give up besetting sins? Baptism is the EASIEST thing to do, and it shows that we identify with Jesus Christ and want to be like Him in all respects!

Try that on him. It should work.

But it won’t convince him that baptism is necessary for salvation. Baptists reject any and ALL “works of man” as necessary for salvation.

After I became Catholic, I personally came to believe that Jesus Himself was baptized because He knew that one day, the Church would split, and Protestants would teach that baptism isn’t necessary, and they would then have no hope of heaven because of the stain of original sin. So out of His great love for all mankind, including Protestants, Jesus was baptized so that Protestants would follow His example and be baptized, too, even though they were doing it for an incorrect reason.

I have enjoyed numerous things you have said in other posts but I feel your reasoning in this last paragraph is erroneous. Firstly, not many “Protestants” (whatever that is) teach that Baptism is not necessary. Secondly, what good does Baptism do if someone does it for the “incorrect reason”? I doubt very much that that is the reason Jesus submitted to Baptism.

 

[HollowMan]

It will be lots of quoting Bible verses back and forth because solo scriptura nvolves a lot of picking and choosing and isolating,

Catholics do the same thing. You might want to get your own house straight before you start accusing other people.

 

[HollowMan]

Also Acts 2:38
And Peter said to them, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

The problem is that the word translated as “for” here is “eis” which indicates that the baptism is a response to salvation, not a cause of it.

 

[HollowMan]

Have him read 1 Peter 3:21

Even better than isolating 1 Peter 3:21 out of context from the rest of the passage, why not have him read the whole passage so he can see what it means in context?

 

[Totus_tuus118]

Baptism is a complete regeneration. We are baptised INTO Christ , and made new creatures. We die and rise with the Lord, and the wages of our sin are buried with him. That’s why the Church teaches ‘‘One baptism for the forgiveness of sin’’.

I’m not sure if anyone else has already mentioned it, but the words Peter spoke at Pentecost to the Jews is very striking . He said ‘‘You must repent and be baptised all of you IN THE NAME of our Lord Jesus Christ and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit’’’. We know that the trinitarian formula is required for a valid baptism , so it suggests Peter was referring to a command of Christ when he said ‘‘In the name of’’. Similar to how police officers would say ''In the name of the law! ‘’

 

[englands123]

Just before His [ascension] said, “Go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age” ([Matthew 28:19–20]. These instructions specify that the church is responsible to teach Jesus’ word, make disciples, and baptize those disciples. These things are to be done everywhere (“all nations”) until “the very end of the age.” So, if for no other reason, baptism has importance because Jesus commanded it.

The answer is : baptism is an outward testimony of the inward change in a believer’s life. Christian baptism is an act of obedience to the Lord after salvation; although baptism is closely associated with salvation, [it is not a requirement to be saved]. The Bible shows in many places that the order of events is 1) a person believes in the Lord Jesus and 2) he is baptized. This sequence is seen in [Acts 2:41], “Those who accepted [Peter’s] message were baptized” (see also [Acts 16:14–15].

 

[De_Maria]

I have enjoyed numerous things you have said in other posts but I feel your reasoning in this last paragraph is erroneous. Firstly, not many “Protestants” …teach that Baptism is not necessary. …

Through the years, I’ve had the opposite experience. Most Protestants that I talk to, reject Baptism as necessary.

(whatever that is)

Basically, an anti-Catholic who follows the teachings of the Protestant rebellion against the Catholic Church. I don’t know why so many non-Catholics deny that they are Protestant since almost every meeting I’ve ever attended with Protestants begins with “thank God I was saved from the Catholic Church” or has a major part of its content which is directed at the purported “false teaching” of the Catholic Church.

For example, why do they believe in the purported “salvation by faith alone”? It is obviously a reaction against “salvation by faith and good works.”

Why do they believe in the unbiblical, so-called, “Scripture alone”? It is a reaction against the authority of the Church.

 

[Peeps]

Firstly, not many “Protestants” (whatever that is) teach that Baptism is not necessary.

Many, many Evangelical Protestants teach this.

I agree with you that the Mainlines teach the importance of baptism, at least, those Mainline churches who aren’t teaching about “Gaia worship” or TM or planning an LGBTQ Pride Event for their children’s Sunday school classes.

But Evangelical Protestant churches generally reject Mainline teachings, and many Evangelical Protestants believe that most Mainline churches are apostate. They’ll accept individual Mainline church members who testify that they have accepted Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior, but they are leery ot Mainline churches. This has been the situation since the late 1970s, when the UCC ordained gay ministers.

And I’m not saying that my theory about Jesus’ baptism is “truth.” It’s just what I happen to believe, because I know that Jesus loves us so much that He doesn’t want “invincible ignorance” to be the cause of millions of Protestants having no hope of heaven because of original sin.

 

[Wannano]

I guess where we live greatly influences the experiences we have. I know of zero churches in my area that teach that baptism is not important. And interestingly enough, those mainline churches in my area that have introduced the things you mentioned, still teach infant baptism is important.

 

[Peeps]

I guess where we live greatly influences the experiences we have.

Yes, I agree with this. I live in an area close to Willowcreek, and lots of non-denominational churches have sprung up as Willowcreek influences Christians. We have a “daughter church” of Willowcreek in our city that attracts almost a 10th of our city’s population every weekend. One of my childhood friends, a pastor, left an established Evangelical Protestant denomination to start a “Purpose-Driven”-based church.

Mainlines in our city are really hurting for members. Many have closed, and those that are hanging on are doing so because they are in the inner city and are heavily-involved in various charitable outreaches to the homeless and other needy people, which nets them financial donations from many non-Christians.

I think I mentioned this earlier, but one of the large, old Lutheran churches has around 45 regulars-75 years ago, their confirmation classes included a hundred or more young people! So sad.

 

[Mtatum1958]

The problem is that the word translated as “for” here is “eis” which indicates that the baptism is a response to salvation, not a cause of it.

Okay, then that would also place repentance is also a response to salvation?

 

[Wannano]

Wannano:

I guess where we live greatly influences the experiences we have.

Yes, I agree with this. I live in an area close to Willowcreek, and lots of non-denominational churches have sprung up as Willowcreek influences Christians. We have a “daughter church” of Willowcreek in our city that attracts almost a 10th of our city’s population every weekend. One of my childhood friends, a pastor, left an established Evangelical Protestant denomination to start a “Purpose-Driven”-based church.

Mainlines in our city are really hurting for members. Many have closed, and those that are hanging on are doing so because they are in the inner city and are heavily-involved in various charitable outreaches to the homeless and other needy people, which nets them financial donations from many non-Christians.

I think I mentioned this earlier, but one of the large, old Lutheran churches has around 45 regulars-75 years ago, their confirmation classes included a hundred or more young people! So sad.

Thank you Peeps, your kind mannerism is appreciated.

I am curious, are you of the opinion that the non-Catholics who practice baptism for the “wrong” reason get their stain of original sin removed from their soul even if they do not believe their is such a thing as original sin that needs to be removed?

 

[Peeps]

I am curious, are you of the opinion that the non-Catholics who practice baptism for the “wrong” reason get their stain of original sin removed from their soul even if they do not believe their is such a thing as original sin that needs to be removed?

I believe this is what Holy Mother Church teaches. The Sacraments are efficacious even if we don’t fully understand what is happening. Obviously, a baby doesn’t understand what is happening to him, but the original sin is still removed!

There are many MANY Catholics who are ignorant of what their Church teaches! Some people call them CINOs (Catholics in Name Only), and some Catholics are rather derisive about these people…

I prefer to be charitable about this. I tend to think that somewhere along the way, they were prevented in some way from learning what their Church believes (e.g., parents who were spotty in getting their children to their Religious Ed. classes or who undermined what their children were learning in Religious Ed, or perhaps an under-qualified religious ed teacher or RCIA teacher, or perhaps a priest who was extremely liberal and led his flock astray with half-truths).

Of course, it’s also possible that these Catholics, for whatever reasons (e.g., divorce? having SSA? an abusive situation? a church member who was constantly rude to them?) have given up on the Catholic Church and continue going out of a sense of duty or to appease a parent or some other family member.

These Catholics possibly not only don’t understand the Sacraments, but also may be hostile towards the Church, but God is saving them in spite of themselves!

 

[HollowMan]

Baptism is so crucial that Jesus Himself consented to be baptized. I would ask them why our fallen race doesn’t need baptism when Jesus placed such an emphasis on it.

Jesus’ baptism wasn’t a sinners’ baptism as described in Acts. It was a Jewish ritual cleansing called a mikvah that was required for entrance into the Jewish ministry.