I am not sure that Protestants who choose to remain Protestants “know that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God” – or they would be Catholics. I’m on my way to Rome because I recognize that. My Protestant husband isn’t, and doesn’t.
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Tis_Bearself
Patron
All three of the people OP mentioned stood up heroically to the Nazis and that is primarily how they are known. Billy on the other hand was primarily known as a preacher proselytizing his religion. Don’t get me wrong, I think he was a good guy and is also probably in Heaven, but if you’re worried about people joining a faith other than Catholicism, to me he creates a greater risk of that than three Nazi opposers whose particular faiths were secondary to that.
C
CroatCatholic
Guest
Hey. Just wanted to say:
I am not a theologian or priest or anything, I am just putting quotes from Church documents and leaders about this topic.
I am not a theologian or priest or anything, I am just putting quotes from Church documents and leaders about this topic.
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CroatCatholic
Guest
And here, beloved Sons and Venerable Brothers, We should mention again and censure a very grave error in which some Catholics are unhappily engaged, who believe that men living in error, and separated from the true faith and from Catholic unity, can attain eternal life. Indeed, this is certainly quite contrary to Catholic teaching. It is known to Us and to you that they who labor in invincible ignorance of our most holy religion and who, zealously keeping the natural law and its precepts engraved in the hearts of all by God, and being ready to obey God, live an honest and upright life, can, by the operating power of divine light and grace, attain eternal life, since God who clearly beholds, searches, and knows the minds, souls, thoughts, and habits of all men, because of His great goodness and mercy, will by no means suffer anyone to be punished with eternal torment who has not the guilt of deliberate sin. But, the Catholic dogma that no one can be saved outside the Catholic Church is well-known; and also that those who are obstinate toward the authority and definitions of the same Church, and who persistently separate themselves from the unity of the Church, and from the Roman Pontiff, the successor of Peter, to whom ‘the guardianship of the vine has been entrusted by the Savior,’ (Council of Chalcedon, Letter to Pope Leo I) cannot obtain eternal salvation…". - Quanto conficiamur moerore Pope Pius IX
Tis_Bearself
Patron
You’ve presented this in an oversimplistic way and cherry-picked quotes that support your position, which seems to be that adult non-Catholics who could choose to join the Catholic church but don’t do so (perhaps because they were raised their entire lives in a different faith) aren’t going to Heaven. If this is your personal belief, fine, but it’s not what the Church teaches, nor what I as a Catholic believe.
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CroatCatholic
Guest
I am a 17-year old revert. Forgive me If I have said error, I just wanted to put these quotes.
Peace!
Peace!
Tis_Bearself
Patron
I think it would be best if you relied on the teaching of the Catechism on this subject, then.
C
CroatCatholic
Guest
And, again, everything is in God’s hands, He makes the decision and He judges.
Agreed, he was a good guy, I liked him very much. I have loved ones who simply do not want to hear anything about Catholicism or Christianity, and while he was living, I wondered “obviously you won’t listen to anything I have to say, but would you listen to Billy Graham?”.HomeschoolDad:
All three of the people OP mentioned stood up heroically to the Nazis and that is primarily how they are known. Billy on the other hand was primarily known as a preacher proselytizing his religion. Don’t get me wrong, I think he was a good guy and is also probably in Heaven, but if you’re worried about people joining a faith other than Catholicism, to me he creates a greater risk of that than three Nazi opposers whose particular faiths were secondary to that.
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do_justly_love_mercy
Guest
how do you justify the claim that Protestantism is an easier faith than Catholicism? Dietrich Bonhoeffer’s faith led to his being hanged by the Nazis. But, quite separately from that extreme example, there are many Protestants who choose to follow a hard path for Jesus. The Amish, for example.
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RolandThompsonGunner
Guest
I’m pretty convinced CS Lewis is a saint, despite being Anglican.
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TULIPed
Guest
I think it’s awesome that you’re reading doctrinal documents and letters. Keep up the good work!
Might I suggest that you throw this (relatively recent) one in the mix:
http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_...ecree_19641121_unitatis-redintegratio_en.html
I think you’d find it an interesting read. Here’s a particularly interesting section (at least from a Protestant’s (thankful) standpoint):
"The children who are born into these Communities and who grow up believing in Christ cannot be accused of the sin involved in the separation, and the Catholic Church embraces upon them as brothers, with respect and affection. For men who believe in Christ and have been truly baptized are in communion with the Catholic Church even though this communion is imperfect. The differences that exist in varying degrees between them and the Catholic Church - whether in doctrine and sometimes in discipline, or concerning the structure of the Church - do indeed create many obstacles, sometimes serious ones, to full ecclesiastical communion. The ecumenical movement is striving to overcome these obstacles. But even in spite of them it remains true that all who have been justified by faith in Baptism are members of Christ’s body, and have a right to be called Christian, and so are correctly accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church."
Of course this document has to be held in tension with everything else you’ve posted. In any case, as St. Peter suggested, we are all to introduce Christ to others (perhaps especially others who already profess to love Christ?) with “gentleness and respect”. (1 Peter 3:15) All debate glorifies God if we keep this in mind I think. I for one could do a much better job at it.
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mcq72
Guest
Oh brother, this thread is too much in showing our painful seperation, which we as protestants feel are man made (by CC).
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TULIPed
Guest
#ittakes2totango
No divorce ever was the result of only one person’s faults or indiscretion. In any case, we are to always “consider others better than ourselves” according to St. Paul. We are as to blame as our Catholic brothers and sisters for any division that persists between us, and are thus thankful for God’s grace and mercy as we work to reconcile.
No divorce ever was the result of only one person’s faults or indiscretion. In any case, we are to always “consider others better than ourselves” according to St. Paul. We are as to blame as our Catholic brothers and sisters for any division that persists between us, and are thus thankful for God’s grace and mercy as we work to reconcile.
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CroatCatholic
Guest
I’d like to say, at the end, what my point is.
I am not a theologian nor priest, I am simply a Catholic teenager who wants to love God and others in deed and truth.
These quotes which I have posted, I affirm them and believe in them. I never wanted or want to declare anyone as damned or so, everyone is left to the mercy and hands of God, both Catholics and non-Catholics.
If I have said a misinterpretation or something out of context, or even, God forbid, a serious error, please forgive me and show me where I have wronged.
I just believe that the Church is Christ’s body, and if we are to be Christ’s and have life in Him, we cannot reject His body, the teachings of the Body and shepherds of the Body throughout our life till the end and have sure hope of salvation. But, again, what constitues rejection and who has remained like that to the end, I do not know, and I believe God is the Righteous Judge and knower of all hearts and minds who shall decide.
I am not a theologian nor priest, I am simply a Catholic teenager who wants to love God and others in deed and truth.
These quotes which I have posted, I affirm them and believe in them. I never wanted or want to declare anyone as damned or so, everyone is left to the mercy and hands of God, both Catholics and non-Catholics.
If I have said a misinterpretation or something out of context, or even, God forbid, a serious error, please forgive me and show me where I have wronged.
I just believe that the Church is Christ’s body, and if we are to be Christ’s and have life in Him, we cannot reject His body, the teachings of the Body and shepherds of the Body throughout our life till the end and have sure hope of salvation. But, again, what constitues rejection and who has remained like that to the end, I do not know, and I believe God is the Righteous Judge and knower of all hearts and minds who shall decide.
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Billy_Buescher
Guest
You can have all the faith and still be nothing,
It is what we do with that faith that defines us.
(1Co 13:2) And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
It is what we do with that faith that defines us.
(1Co 13:2) And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
O
OrbisNonSufficit
Guest
Everyone in the Heaven is Catholic anyway (because they all know Truth now, and as such are part of Church Triumphant, which is part of Catholic Church). It would sometimes be contrary to Faith to really canonize someone who was outside the Church though… because it would set a bad example. “Why be in the Church when XY is a Saint and was not even in the Church at all?” …
Plus, Church does not make Saints. Church canonizes who She believes Saints are. Miracles or signs from God help us to identify Saints, but actually canonizations are not infallible by nature of them. Church is not protected from error while declaring Saints.
And my last point… I am not very acquinted with names you presented, but with most Protestants, being Saints as perceived by Catholic Church would go against their Faith. They do not believe in intercession nor do they believe it is effacious to pray for the dead or “to the dead”.
Plus, Church does not make Saints. Church canonizes who She believes Saints are. Miracles or signs from God help us to identify Saints, but actually canonizations are not infallible by nature of them. Church is not protected from error while declaring Saints.
And my last point… I am not very acquinted with names you presented, but with most Protestants, being Saints as perceived by Catholic Church would go against their Faith. They do not believe in intercession nor do they believe it is effacious to pray for the dead or “to the dead”.
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Tis_Bearself
Patron
It’s one 17-year-old poster who went off on a wrong track. Please do not ascribe it to all Catholics. And I in turn will ignore the fact that you are blaming Catholics for our separation.
Tis_Bearself
Patron
You are correct that the Church does not “make saints”; a saint is anyone in heaven, and God decides.
However, you are incorrect when you say canonizations are not infallible and the Church is not protected from error when declaring saints.
The Church decides who they are going to investigate and honor with canonization, which is the official recognition of the Church that a soul is in heaven. Canonizations are infallible pronouncements of the Church afaik. A Catholic is NOT allowed to disagree with the Church’s pronouncement of canonization and say “Well, I don’t think St. Pope John Paul II is really in heaven” or whatever.
Do you have a Vatican source to the contrary?
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CroatCatholic
Guest
Hey, Tis Bearself, could you say what wrong I have said? In all honesty I am asking you this, please, know that I am young and returned to the Church only last year in October or November. Please, correct my wrongs, because I truly want to hold the Faith fully. 
Peace!
Peace!
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