Protestant heroes for Christ be Saints?

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annad347 said:
Wouldn’t that make the Catechism one interpretation of The Word of God, the Bible? T
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Yes, but the correct one, because it was done precisely by same Church that actually wrote the Bible and is guided by Holy Spirit to be free of doctrinal error.
annad347 said:
That being outside The Church isn’t the Catholic Church but denying Jesus Christ is your Lord and Savior, living without The Holy Spirit guiding you to live by God’s Will?
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Private heretics, for example, are inside the Church by external union. Catechumens are inside the Church by internal union. Those who believe and profess that Jesus Christ is their Lord and Savior, and are properly baptized are in some, limited relationship to the Church. They are not inside the Church fully, but they are part of Church by virtue of being Christians. That does not make them Catholics, and only Catholics are fully inside the True Church of Christ which subsists in Catholic Church.

That does not mean non-Catholics can not be saved! God will try to get them saved and lead them to Him, hence while it is preferable for them to be Catholics as that rapidly increases their chances of being saved, they still have some chance to do so… but grace of being in the Church should not be underestimated, and faith alone should not be overestimated.
 
OrbisNonSufficit said:
I will probably make a thread about this, because as of now I am unsure. Many people claim they are infallible but some theologians are saying the opposite. Church herself has not ever taught that beatifications or canonizations are infallible… yet some believe that Papal Infallibility extends to that…
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Please make a thread on this…there is conflicting evidence.

Regarding the OP’s question, from an Orthodox perspective I understand the tension between public glorification which would not be appropriate, as there is not a shared faith between Protestants and Catholics, and private veneration which could be appropriate based upon a life of heroic virtue or martyrdom. The Orthodox tend to be a little looser with our definitions so, as per whether Dietrich Bonhoeffer is in heaven, we could say he was baptized in blood and thus united to the Orthodox Church as a martyr.

As an aside I know a man in Christ, who when drunk prays to Catholic saints, and when sober, to Orthodox saints. 🤣

There is also hope and knowledge that as God is a merciful God and will be the Righteous Judge at the Last Judgement, that there are many countless scores of faithful Protestants, and Catholics, and probably Pagans, Buddhists, etc. who will have lived a lives infinitely more in conforming to the Gospel commands than I have, who will inherit eternal life according to the mystery of God’s love for mankind. That being said, the safest route to God and salvation is through His Church, but the hard part for most is finding which Church is His True Church…
 
What I want to say is that we can personally and privately be either optimistic or pessimistic that a non-Catholic is in Heaven.
 
What I want to say is that we can personally and privately be either optimistic or pessimistic that a non-Catholic is in Heaven. 😀
 
And like I said, why be pessimistic if that’s against church teaching??
 
Dear friend, do you mean it is against Church teaching for a non-Catholic to be saved or?
 
HomeschoolDad said:
How so, and what do you mean by “not a very nice person”? Nice is as nice does. Perhaps she could be harsh, but that is not necessarily evil — sometimes, in some circumstances, you have to be harsh, and leave a bad taste in some people’s mouths… I would be more concerned about whether she was holy or not.
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Amen! I also ask @walk-worthy to post proof before saying things about Bl Dorothy Day, a woman whose example we would do well to follow in our world.
 
Causes for canonizations always start with a local cult, a group of people who remember and revere a person. This proceed through a number of steps — examination by the local bishop, review of the writings of the individual, miracles, etc. — before the Church makes a definitive proclamation that someone is a saint in heaven.

Non-Catholics are not likely to have a group of Catholics devoted to them, so the cause is not likely to get off the ground. Even in the event of a group of Catholics devoted to a non-Catholic, like a monastery that was saved by a righteous Jew might revere their savior, later stages would probably raise questions. But mostly it is he lack of a Catholic cult that keeps non Catholics from canonization.

Of course, if the group “becomes” Catholic this can all change. With Armenian and Syrian and other churches affiliating with the Catholic Church, their saints are usually recognized as well. This is similar to the acceptance of many earlier saints, despite not knowing if they even existed, in the 18th century when the modern canonization procedure was adopted. Bonhoeffer might become a saint after Lutherans and Catholics merge into a single Church, despite his being a member of a community that did not honor saints the way Catholics do.
 
From what I understand it is very much Church teaching that a non-Catholic can be saved. Why be pessimistic about it?
 
Let’s take an example

Imagine a person who was kind, nice, charitable and revered as holy by those around him. But, he was a Protestant pastor who talked against the Church and insisted that Protestantism is true, and denied Catholic teachings and dogmas.
Some people will believe because he was “holy and good” that he is maybe in Heaven, but other people will hold he maybe is not because he rejected Catholicism his whole life and died without ever entering the Church. As long as it is a personal opinion and not forced on others, there are no problems with the two groups, who presume that he is saved, and those that he is not.

P.S.: I am not a theologian or priest, I am just a 17 year old Catholic teenager, so if you want details by experts on this topic, contact a priest. 😀

Peace!
 
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OrbisNonSufficit said:
Yes, but the correct one, because it was done precisely by same Church that actually wrote the Bible and is guided by Holy Spirit to be free of doctrinal error.
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The writers of Catechism was inspired by the Holy Spirit, like those who wrote the Bible… without error?
 
annad347 said:
The writers of Catechism was inspired by the Holy Spirit, like those who wrote the Bible… without error?
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Not “like those who wrote the Bible”, but Church is protected from teaching error.
 
CroatCatholic said:
Imagine a person who was kind, nice, charitable and revered as holy by those around him. But, he was a Protestant pastor who talked against the Church and insisted that Protestantism is true, and denied Catholic teachings and dogmas.
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OK…got it.
CroatCatholic said:
Some people will believe because he was “holy and good” that he is maybe in Heaven, but other people will hold he maybe is not because he rejected Catholicism his whole life and died without ever entering the Church.
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And to the bolded…Why? When…that…isn’t…the…teaching…of…the…Church. Why would one have an opinion against Church teaching?
CroatCatholic said:
I am not a theologian or priest, I am just a 17 year old Catholic teenager, so if you want details by experts on this topic, contact a priest. 😀
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No, I’d rather when one comes on a board…puts something out there either they own it and explain why they’d carry that belief (when others have indicated that isn’t what the Church believes), or admit they may be incorrect rather than saying… “well, that’s like my opinion”
 
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TC3033 said:
And to the bolded…Why? When…that…isn’t…the…teaching…of…the…Church. Why would one have an opinion against Church teaching?
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What do you suppose is teaching of the Church precisely? After all, there is no salvation outside the Church (dogma). Those who reject Church reject salvation… nevertheless, rejection is not same as not accepting.
 
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OrbisNonSufficit said:
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TC3033:
And to the bolded…Why? When…that…isn’t…the…teaching…of…the…Church. Why would one have an opinion against Church teaching?
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What do you suppose is teaching of the Church precisely? After all, there is no salvation outside the Church (dogma). Those who reject Church reject salvation… nevertheless, rejection is not same as not accepting.
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Exactly one cannot reject what one does not know. Words have meanings, and I believe that accept and reject has been utilized as a synonym above. This topic has been played out a ton on this board.

@CroatCatholic

For light reading.

 
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Didn’t read much of this thread. Don’t know how relevant this is, but I sometimes hope Mr. Rogers is a saint.
 
Dear friend, another example, what would you hope of a person who knew Catholic teaching and doctrine, rejected it and instructed others to reject it too and believe in Protestantism, and also to call the Church false and apostates? Would his holiness and goodness erase what he preached and accused?

By the way, I will research more about Extra Eclessiam Nulla Salus, it is an important thing. Thanks for the link!
 
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